MN crash

[CX880]

I don't buy this "bullying owner/customer" thing. If I had 100 million dollars in the bank I would have A LOT to live for. Certainly not worth toying with weather and a little 20K pound jet. It's called Pilot In Command.

 

[BigPappa]

No difference between a small or large plane when it comes to WX; remember the L-1011 accident in DFW?

 

[Fly91]

I don't buy this "bullying owner/customer" thing. If I had 100 million dollars in the bank I would have A LOT to live for. Certainly not worth toying with weather and a little 20K pound jet. It's called Pilot In Command.

Bullying by owners/customers happens every single day all over the place, and unfortunately ALOT of pilots bow down to that crap.

Not saying that it happened here. I think the pilots, or the captain anyway, simply made a bad choice to land when he had pure evidence of pretty strong wind shear on a 1 mile final.

 

[Bandit60]

Bullying by owners/customers happens every single day all over the place, and unfortunately ALOT of pilots bow down to that crap.

Not saying that it happened here. I think the pilots, or the captain anyway, simply made a bad choice to land when he had pure evidence of pretty strong wind shear on a 1 mile final.

I'm confused. Where did you see that they had stong wind shear and KOWA. I thought I heard a windshear alert given out by the RST controller. I was assuming he was talking about Rochester. I may be wrong but I would highly doubt that OWA has windshear alerting equipment.

 

[400A]

I don't buy this "bullying owner/customer" thing. If I had 100 million dollars in the bank I would have A LOT to live for. Certainly not worth toying with weather and a little 20K pound jet. It's called Pilot In Command.

But you don't have 100 million and based on that comment and your "little Jet" remark you have obviously not flown folks who do. Very often their ego is just as big as their bank account. They do not accept the word no very well.

 

[400A]

The families are still making funeral plans. Lets not over analyze this accident yet.

I thought everyone had been quite respectful so far.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I like, "Safety is my concern, not your appointments."

And I'm not kidding, I've said it to many people.

sure ya have...

Im sure your employers love that line. "me PIC, me in charge"....

There is nothing to prove, no contest. The pax can say what they want, stomp their feet. Its our job to smile, be sure their catering is right (LOL) and simply fly the plane safely from Point A to B (or its alternate).....regardless of external pressure.

Hold your line on safety (In a polite way) and never fly for a place you cant walk away from in 2 seconds.

 

[siouxicide]

I think the pilots, or the captain anyway, simply made a bad choice to land when he had pure evidence of pretty strong wind shear on a 1 mile final.

This is EXACTLY what upset me so much about the ATC clip supplied by WCCO. The average Joe, and obviously many pilots, will take these two pilots for absolute fools for landing with reported windshear and excessively high winds. The windshear was reported from an airport nearly 40 miles away! And even if the RST controller was running all 3 freqs, they'd already switched to advisory freq and never would have heard it. Better yet, even if they had heard it, it didn't apply to their airport.
I feel terrible for these guys. Not only for what happened but now how the misinformed perceives them thanks to that clip.

 

[PilotswifeII]

sure ya have...

Im sure your employers love that line. "me PIC, me in charge"....

There is nothing to prove, no contest. The pax can say what they want, stomp their feet. Its our job to smile, be sure their catering is right (LOL) and simply fly the plane safely from Point A to B (or its alternate).....regardless of external pressure.

Here here, Gulfstream 200. Like it or not, all of you are replaceable. There is another guy just like you who would love to fly for these guys and who won't give them any crap. Not all employers are like that, but my husband has worked for a few of them. Sucks, especially when they don't offer life insurance to guys with families.

I'm praying for all families invovled...

 

[Fly91]

This is EXACTLY what upset me so much about the ATC clip supplied by WCCO. The average Joe, and obviously many pilots, will take these two pilots for absolute fools for landing with reported windshear and excessively high winds. The windshear was reported from an airport nearly 40 miles away! And even if the RST controller was running all 3 freqs, they'd already switched to advisory freq and never would have heard it. Better yet, even if they had heard it, it didn't apply to their airport.
I feel terrible for these guys. Not only for what happened but now how the misinformed perceives them thanks to that clip.

Who reported the 20 knot loss of airspeed on a mile final?

 

[Fly91]

sure ya have...

Many times......

And alot of other good ones. Its all in how you go into a job, I lay out my demands at the interview. Just like I just did with the new company I'm starting with.

Im sure your employers love that line. "me PIC, me in charge"....

Thats correct....IN CHARGE!!!! Plane parks on the ramp, they are in charge again. Pretty simple.

 

[Fly91]

Here here, Gulfstream 200. Like it or not, all of you are replaceable. There is another guy just like you who would love to fly for these guys and who won't give them any crap.

Problem is: Most pilots need any job they can get. I won't fly for the type of owner that is in the cockpit every 5 minutes and hounding you all the time while your flying. Not worth it. There's actually too many jobs out there with owners/companies that do not do that cheezy crap.

My friend "worked" for a 91 operator (Global Express, Challenger 604 and a Lear 60), the owner was typed on two of them and thought he was JoePilot. He would actually be in the cockpit inbetween the two pilots helping them with the checklists. On final approach he would drop flaps and mess with other items. All the pilots had to get together with the D.O. and threaten a walk-out if it didn't stop. It stopped immediately. But you have to have the balls to tell these owners, thats all.

Its either fly and be a happy/safe pilot or fly and be a miserable/unsafe pilot, I choose to be happy/safe in the cockpit.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Many times......

And alot of other good ones. Its all in how you go into a job, I lay out my demands at the interview. Just like I just did with the new company I'm starting with.



Thats correct....IN CHARGE!!!! Plane parks on the ramp, they are in charge again. Pretty simple.

Of course you are "IN CHARGE" there Captain PIC..:0 ....but my point is that kind of attitude might find you bouncing between rather crappy jobs! - YMMV

Most of us know who is in charge without having to confront the passengers about it.

And really, do you fly these kind of jerks on a regular basis?....you gotta wonder about the quality of the job itself.

At my present job (about 6yrs) I, nor the 18 other pilots I fly with, have been questioned in the least about a safety/weather decision...and we have some VERY demanding execs.

Its all in the presentation IMO. We give realistic predictions and provide acceptable alternatives FAR IN ADVANCE to get the person where they need to go, thats the goal right? your existence as a department? I thought it was simply your JOB as Captain PIC IN CHARGE?

some simple examples:

Snow storm predicted? advise 24hrs out that leaving 8hrs early/late might be necessary?

Severe Tstorms? - advise early that delays can be expected (show up early!) - car standing by at alternate airport?

Fog Predicted? - again, cars on stby at clear alternate? can we leave earlier in case as to not delay your meeting?

A last minute "My job is to fly the plane, not worry about your meetings" is just not acceptable where I work....and Safety is simply a given. No need to declare it.

Remember who you work for!

 

[siouxicide]

Who reported the 20 knot loss of airspeed on a mile final?

Apparently someone landing at the RST airport. Unless somebody has read an article saying a 20kt loss was reported at OWA? I haven't seen one saying anything about a shear at OWA.

 

[Andy Neill]

Apparently someone landing at the RST airport. Unless somebody has read an article saying a 20kt loss was reported at OWA? I haven't seen one saying anything about a shear at OWA.

The 20 knot loss was reported at the end of the audio clip (see post #14) for RWY 31 at RST. That came well after cancelling IFR and cleared for advisory frequency change.

 

[400A]

Many times......

And alot of other good ones. Its all in how you go into a job, I lay out my demands at the interview. Just like I just did with the new company I'm starting with.



Thats correct....IN CHARGE!!!! Plane parks on the ramp, they are in charge again. Pretty simple.

If you spoke to my Boss in such a manner (cocky and arrogant) I would relieve you of duty on the spot.

I do in fact worry about the mission my Boss is trying to accomplish. It may be the deal that gets me a bigger bird and a big pay raise. Delivery and a back up plan are the mark of a true professional. I will never compromise safety, but I will have some sort of plan to offer to him as G200 said. "Me Captain, You sit down and shut up" is not a plan nor is it professional. I have found that simply walking them over to the WSI machine and showing them a visual picture is more than enough to make them understand. You can be the hero because you planned in advance or you can be the zero because you said......"I am in charge and we are not going" Your choice.

Being a professional does not start and stop on the ramp as you said.

 

[Fly91]

that kind of attitude might find you bouncing between rather crappy jobs!

I've found that owners like that kind of attitude. Never had a problem with those demands at a job.

99% of the people I've come across that "bother" the pilots was when I was flying Part 135 charter anyway, not 91, just customers that you'll probably never see again that just don't get it. That was 8 years ago. I've only flown Part 91 and a couple years Part 121 since then. My last 91 job had company employees that never said anything to the pilots, the owners were great and never said anything to us either, but the company did have us flying clients from time to time that were just cheeseballs and would talk alot of crap. My boss at that time, actually loved it when we shut them down and told them to leave the flying to us. After all these people were my bosses workers, who are they going to complain to? They sold the plane and closed the flight department after 2 years.

The new 91 operator I'm with now, we spoke about it at the interview last week because I brought it up as something I do not want to deal with, even from the owner. I do not like people in the cockpit telling me what to do or "why don't we do this or that", or talking at you on final approach when you're trying to talk on thr radio. I like when people talk to us up front, AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME, thats totally fine with me, but keep the flying comments out of the conversation and don't offer up decisions that we're supposed to be making. They dont bring me to there multi-million $$$ meetings to offer up my opinions for a reason.

You require what you want in the cockpit, I require what I want.

 

[Fly91]

If you spoke to my Boss in such a manner (cocky and arrogant) I would relieve you of duty on the spot.

I do in fact worry about the mission my Boss is trying to accomplish. It may be the deal that gets me a bigger bird and a big pay raise. Delivery and a back up plan are the mark of a true professional. I will never compromise safety, but I will have some sort of plan to offer to him as G200 said. "Me Captain, You sit down and shut up" is not a plan nor is it professional. I have found that simply walking them over to the WSI machine and showing them a visual picture is more than enough to make them understand. You can be the hero because you planned in advance or you can be the zero because you said......"I am in charge and we are not going" Your choice.

Being a professional does not start and stop on the ramp as you said.

Being professional goes without saying. This discussion is focusing on when a passenger is upset because you just told them, WHILE ENROUTE, that you won't be making the original destination. What do you say if they won't except that and keep telling you to get them there? What if an owner says you better get me there regardless of what you think?

This is what we're talking about. Me, they get a very professional response, the options they will have when we get to the alternate which was previously planned for anyway, and thats it. After that, they'll keep getting shorter and shorter responses from me. The last thing I will ever consider is to try to make it in once I decided not to.

Look, we're talking maybe 3 times while flying Part 91 I've had to be a little sturn after responding to them 3-4 times that we can't make the destination. Part 135, its happened alot. As you know, Part 135 customers can care less about anything else but GETTING THERE. And after going back-and-forth for 5 minutes it gets pretty irritating and I shut it down. Never have I had a boss/owner say a word to me about it. They always back us up.

 

[Fly91]

Oh well. Hopefully we can get some real, accurate info on this crash so we know what went wrong.

 

[HawkerF/O]

While there are many issues G200 is wrong on and I am right on, this is an issue where he is correct and I agree with him 100%. Sounds like he has been doing this awhile.

CX880 (post #61) equated this to having lots to live for and and not wanting to throw it all away over a trip. It's just not that simple. The people riding in the back of these business tools sit in meetings/boardrooms all week long making decisions and having people follow thier instructions without delay; literally asking how high can they jump. And now, here is some employee of theirs TELLING him what he can and cannot do with his own aircraft. Phuleazzzzzzze. That will never go over well. It has nothing to do with what they have to live for, it has to do with ego, who is going to make the final decisions here, and just give Mr. Bigbuck a reason to get into your a$$ and see how quickly that happens.

Look at what G200 says, "acceptable alternatives". What he is saying is that he gives them their options based on what he is willing to do, then lets them make the final decision based on the choices he presented and since he presented the options, he is obviously comfortable with any of them. By doing it this way, the CEO thinks he made the decision when all along, G200 made it. See how that works?

Now G200, you got time to help a fella change out some brakes? Trying to save the boss some $. Seriously, how have you been?

Its all in the presentation IMO. We give realistic predictions and provide acceptable alternatives FAR IN ADVANCE to get the person where they need to go, thats the goal right?