KTEB departures and delays

[MaxTorque]

Our department typically uses KEWR for NYC visits but we have recently started going to TEB. TEB seems a little more complex & shorter, but these potential risks can be easily overcome by professional flight crews, right? Recently we were told "indefinite delays" if we wanted the Teterboro 5 but we could get the Dolan with an IFR pickup. Generally such is prohibited by our FOM but there are some limited exceptions. I wouldn't dream of just popping up VFR around busy class B airspace looking for a pick-up but clearance convinced us it was a bit of a work-around since standard IFR separation was problematic and they wouldn't hang us out to dry... It worked out as advertised but I had a couple of contingency plans in mind. For you TEB regulars, is this standard? IF we had held out for a regular IFR departure would a long delay (hour?) been likely?

I have waited in long lines to get out of EWR but at least you can see what is going on. Does ATC view TEB departures as second tier and only work them in "as available"?

Thanks for your thoughts/experience on this.
MT

 

[sleepy]

Did you mean the Dalton departure? If so, I would say that the only time I use that is when we are departing during noise hours and the weather is good VFR. I have done that once in four years. I have never been offered the Dalton departure, usually they will tell to to taxi to runway 24 and not even tell you that you will be getting a noise letter from the Port Authority after you depart. I have never been offered the Dalton as a way to avoid delays.

I don't know it as a fact, but I suspect that EWR traffic has some sort of priority over TEB traffic. TEB operations are totally dependent on which way EWR is departing. What seems to matter the most for delays is which gate (fix) you are departing over. I file CDR routes and carry enough extra fuel to be able to depart over another gate and fly for 300 miles in the wrong direction just in case. I also find the NBAA GA Desk to be helpful in providing information on delays, alternate routes, the number of aircraft scheduled to depart at any given time, etc......

The worst times for delays at TEB are Monday mornings and Friday afternoons, or any time weather is in the area.

 

[rettofly]

I love NY.. Not!

The worst times for delays at TEB are Monday mornings and Friday afternoons, or any time weather is in the area.

Sundays after 3PM aren't much fun either!

Anybody been having issues getting in or out of HPN lately? A few weeks ago I watched a Hawker doing s-turns (requested by the tower) all the way to short final, had a go-around caused by someone on the crossing runway and watched another Hawker get a go-around while I was on downwind for my next pass.
In addition, taxi delays seem to be getting out of hand. Last two times there, I had a 25 min delay taxiing to the ramp and 45 min on a departure. HPN tower told another pilot that TRACON is really tying their hands lately.

 

[Raskal]

Did you mean the Dalton departure? If so, I would say that the only time I use that is when we are departing during noise hours and the weather is good VFR. I have done that once in four years. I have never been offered the Dalton departure, usually they will tell to to taxi to runway 24 and not even tell you that you will be getting a noise letter from the Port Authority after you depart. I have never been offered the Dalton as a way to avoid delays.

I don't know it as a fact, but I suspect that EWR traffic has some sort of priority over TEB traffic. TEB operations are totally dependent on which way EWR is departing. What seems to matter the most for delays is which gate (fix) you are departing over. I file CDR routes and carry enough extra fuel to be able to depart over another gate and fly for 300 miles in the wrong direction just in case. I also find the NBAA GA Desk to be helpful in providing information on delays, alternate routes, the number of aircraft scheduled to depart at any given time, etc......

The worst times for delays at TEB are Monday mornings and Friday afternoons, or any time weather is in the area.

I've been offered the Dalton multiple times out of TEB to avoid delays, usually clearance comes right out and asks if you can accept it. We used it when we needed to, there have been discussions before on the board about doing it or not.

As for EWR traffic, since the Dalton routes you right underneath the EWR approach traffic I don't know if it's as much a priority issue as it is maintining seperation.

As to best times? Who knows, out of the hundred times I've gone in there it was almost always completely opposite of what I expected on arrival no matter day or time. It's absolutely crazy how unpredictable it is.

I know everyone seems to hate it, but TEB grew on me over time and I came to like it an awful lot more than any of the big three or surrounding airports. Dare I say I actually miss going in there a little bit?

 

[CopilotDoug]

My understandfing was you to request the Dalton departure? They don't have it in the NOS books (Don't know about the Jepps) and I've only seen it in the A/FD. It doesn't have the IFR seperation minimums, which is why you're holding for such a long time on for the TEB 5.

If you say you've been offered it, Raskal, I believe you.

 

[G100driver]

Dalton is in Jepp.

We use TEB so long as we are not departing Thurs or Fri afternnon.

We have had lots of sucess at MMU. Minimal delays (when compared to the alternatives). Crosswinds can be a little much, however.

 

[Bandit60]

Did you mean the Dalton departure? If so, I would say that the only time I use that is when we are departing during noise hours and the weather is good VFR. I have done that once in four years. I have never been offered the Dalton departure, usually they will tell to to taxi to runway 24 and not even tell you that you will be getting a noise letter from the Port Authority after you depart. I have never been offered the Dalton as a way to avoid delays.

I don't know it as a fact, but I suspect that EWR traffic has some sort of priority over TEB traffic. TEB operations are totally dependent on which way EWR is departing. What seems to matter the most for delays is which gate (fix) you are departing over. I file CDR routes and carry enough extra fuel to be able to depart over another gate and fly for 300 miles in the wrong direction just in case. I also find the NBAA GA Desk to be helpful in providing information on delays, alternate routes, the number of aircraft scheduled to depart at any given time, etc......

The worst times for delays at TEB are Monday mornings and Friday afternoons, or any time weather is in the area.

This is a little off the topic, but I see you filed CDR routes. The last time I did that and asked to use one to aviod a lengthy delay, the control asked me what I was talking about. I asked him if he say that I had filed CDR routes and he said yes, and then said "does that mean you are rvsm?". After that response, I started asking controllers across the country if they know what CDR meant and 90% had no idea.

Its a great thing to due if the controller know what it means.

 

[MaxTorque]

TEB Departure

Yep, Dalton. Don't know where I got Dolan from. That also explains why I got no hits when searching for TEB & Dolan! Thanks for the replies - good info.

We were definitely offered the Dalton as I wouldn't have requested it. In the end it was painless but just outside how we normally operate.
MT

 

[Shag McNasty]

This is a little off the topic, but I see you filed CDR routes. The last time I did that and asked to use one to aviod a lengthy delay, the control asked me what I was talking about. I asked him if he say that I had filed CDR routes and he said yes, and then said "does that mean you are rvsm?". After that response, I started asking controllers across the country if they know what CDR meant and 90% had no idea.

Its a great thing to due if the controller know what it means.

That's because you don't request CDR routes just so you can get to the head of the line. If ATC determines that it's necessary to reroute traffic using CDR routes, then they will issue you an abbreviated clearance if you're able to accept. It's an ATC tool used to reduce coordination and communication time. It's not a pilot tool used to avoid waiting in line.

 

[G100driver]

On another TEB topic, did they stop doing the VOR-A? Last 2 times I was there I did the ILS 19 and the WX was VFR.

 

[GPilot]

G100,
maybe has to due with runway closures and that Lear thing that happened couple weeks ago...I haven't been over Wanes in a while.

 

[sleepy]

This is a little off the topic, but I see you filed CDR routes. The last time I did that and asked to use one to aviod a lengthy delay, the control asked me what I was talking about. I asked him if he say that I had filed CDR routes and he said yes, and then said "does that mean you are rvsm?". After that response, I started asking controllers across the country if they know what CDR meant and 90% had no idea.

Its a great thing to due if the controller know what it means.

As I understand the CDR routes when you file CDR capable in ArincDirect it is noted in your flight plan and the CDR's print along with your flight plan. You must have the CDR routes for that day in your possession. ATC should give you the re-route via a CDR automaticaly. I always file them when they are available. I only ever used them one time.

 

[chasmo]

The Dalton departure is only used off of rwy 19 when EWR is landing the 22's .

Here is an article that explains the reason.

To show you how flexible and innovative our present airspace system can be in the face of almost impossible runway conflict and congestion, look at Teterboro Airport just west of New York City. Teterboro's Runway 19 points almost directly at Newark, and the airports are only a few miles apart. When wind direction dictates that Runway 19 be used at Teterboro, the same wind means the parallel Runway 22s will be active at Newark. The stream of airliners crossing Teterboro on final for Runway 22 at Newark are so low they don't allow enough room for standard IFR separation for Runway 19 departures from Teterboro.

The solution for Teterboro departures, at least when the weather is 3,000 foot overcast with three miles visibility or better, is the unique Dalton departure. Pilots who ask for the Dalton — it cannot be assigned without pilot request — take off on Runway 19, but are actually departing VFR. At 800 feet in the climb a pilot flying the Dalton turns right to 280 degrees and continues the climb to 1,300 feet with a maximum speed limit of 190 knots. As soon as the turn is completed and the controllers issue a clearance to climb above 1,300 feet, the flight is automatically converted from VFR to IFR and everything is back to normal ATC procedures.

The Dalton is a bit of a rule beater because it puts the burden to maintaining separation on the pilot departing Teterboro for the first few miles because an airplane approaching Newark may not always have the full 1,000-foot vertical separation IFR standards require. But it's no different than a visual approach where traffic separation obligation transfers to the pilots, and it gets airplanes out of Teterboro without having to wait for a gap in the stream of Newark arrivals.​

 

[G100driver]

G100,
maybe has to due with runway closures and that Lear thing that happened couple weeks ago...I haven't been over Wanes in a while.

Guess I have been out of it. What Lear thing are you refering too?

 

[GPilot]

Tuesday July 08, 2008, 6:37 PM


Federal aviation officials are investigating why an air traffic controller at Teterboro Airport allowed a Lear Jet to land on a closed runway just as two workers were preparing to put down an "X" sign to show pilots the landing space was off limits.
The jet passed 150 feet over the workers, neither of whom was injured.
Flight 988, an LJ-45 operated by Jet Rider Inc., landed shortly after 5:30 a.m. on June 25, more than a half-hour after Runway 1-19 was shut down for work, said Jim Peters, a regional spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration.
It was not immediately known how many people were aboard the Lear Jet.
Peters said the incident has been initially classified as "an operational error" by the lone air traffic controller, who was not identified. "The preliminary information is that the aircraft over-flew the area where the two people were working by about 150 feet," Peters said.
"We had a fully certified controller working in the tower" at the time of the incident, he said.
The "X Board," as it is called by airport employees, is a literally an enormous X that lights up and is put on a runway to clearly alert pilots of a closure. Peters said the employees were working at the runway's approach end between two taxiways when the plane landed, about seven minutes after regional air traffic controllers asked for and received permission from the local controller at Teterboro for the Lear Jet to land.
Marc La Vorgna, a spokesman for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which operates the Bergen County airport, said the workers were agency employees preparing to put down the "X" sign because the runway was closed for either maintenance or inspection work.
They workers, he said, were at the edge of the runway and inside a vehicle when the incident occurred, La Vorgna said.

 

[bailout]

The Dalton departure is only used off of rwy 19 when EWR is landing the 22's .
— it cannot be assigned without pilot request —

I have never heard of anyone requesting it. When you call clearance, they ask if you can accept it. I would assume if you say no, then you'll be sitting there awhile.

 

[G100driver]

I used to request it all the time in summer. Due to weight restriction sometimes the only way we could make it to the west coast was to depart runway 19.

 

[Pattern-Master]

We just started using KFRG out on Long Island because the boss in the back got fed up with the delays at HPN and TEB. Ride is a little longer to NYC but we have had no problems getting in or out and that makes up for any kind of delays faced with at other airports.

 

[bailey3083]

My friends in ATC said it has come down that TEB is now allowed to send a plane every 5-7 mins during normal time and peak time 8-9 mins. Also those new and improved routes into NYC is causing huge issues with TEB. Bascially to answer the airlines complaints about us they have made sure traffic suffers at TEB.

 

[TimsKeeper]

kfrg

Be careful with FRG Friday thru Sunday as an alternative.

It is definately better than the alternative but you can get caught up in some delays there too. FRG has to coordinate it's IFR departures with JFK. When JFK is busy they don't pick up the phone and noone is going anywhere (especially on low IFR days).

If you truly want to beat the atc type delays KISP is always going to be a better choice (however the drive to Manhatten is an extra 20 mins longer).