Astar Pilots March again, ABX pilots???

[flyinboxes]

Pilots protest DHL cargo deal at UPS headquarters

By RACHEL TOBIN RAMOS
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 07/24/08 About 50 pilots who fly for DHL showed up outside UPS' Sandy Springs headquarters this morning to protest a proposed air cargo deal between the two large shippers.
One pilot, John Nolan, drove seven hours from Blue Ridge, Va., with his wife, Carrie, and children, 7-year-old Cameron and 7-month-old Jack.
Outside UPS headquarters in Sandy Springs, pilots show their disapproval for a deal that would allow UPS to fly DHL cargo in North America.

"I'm worried about my daddy's job," Cameron said.
The pilots (and family) marched outside UPS' entrance, holding bright red placards that read: "UPS/DHL destroying 10,000 American jobs."
Overhead, a yellow biplane flew a banner blasting the deal, and on the street, a billboard truck explained further: "UPS: delivering pink slips."
The pilots, part of the Air Line Pilots Association union, are upset because the proposed deal will put them out of work. The pilots fly for ASTAR, which almost exclusively carriers cargo for DHL, the German post office owned carrier that in 2003 made an aggressive bid to compete with UPS and FedEx on their home turf by expanding its U.S. hub in Wilmington, Ohio. But five years later, DHL has cried uncle, saying its U.S. operations are losing money.
To stave off further losses, the company has proposed allowing one of its main competitors, UPS, to fly its cargo into and throughout North America.
For UPS, it would be a $1 billion annual contract. But for two DHL cargo contractors, ASTAR and ABX, about 1,150 pilots would lose their jobs, plus about 8,000 other Wilmington, Ohio, workers.
In Ohio, a congressional delegation has persuaded the White House to appoint a representative to monitor the deal. Karl Zinsmeister, director of the White House Domestic Policy Council, President Bush's chief domestic policy adviser, will keep on eye on the proposal, which could still be months away from completion.
The ALPA pilots have claimed the deal could violate antitrust laws. UPS spokesman Norman Black, who was also outside of UPS headquarters this morning watching the protest, said, "Every lawyer for the two companies that has examined this has concluded there are no antitrust implications."
UPS provided cold bottled water to the pilots, because, as Black said, he wasn't sure they'd be prepared for Georgia's hot summers. The day proved mild.
"That was very nice of them," said Capt. Pat Walsh, who represents the ASTAR pilots in ALPA. "I hope they'll also save our jobs by walking away from this deal."

 

[shooter]

=flyinboxes;1637473]....
UPS provided cold bottled water to the pilots, because, as Black said, he wasn't sure they'd be prepared for Georgia's hot summers. The day proved mild.

Are you freaking kidding me? Surely you guys did not let this Norman Black (The same guy that said UPS will not hire any out of work DHL pilots) patronize you all?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Are you freaking kidding me? Surely you guys did not let this Norman Black (The same guy that said UPS will not hire any out of work DHL pilots) patronize you all?

Oh, it starts with a bottle of water, but let me tell you, the next thing you know it will be back rubs and offers of hot chocolate and patting "Little Norman" on the head so he doesn't get scared in the dark. That's when we'll start to see who really, really wants to be a UPS pilot...

 

[hvydriver]

Are you freaking kidding me? Surely you guys did not let this Norman Black (The same guy that said UPS will not hire any out of work DHL pilots) patronize you all?

Funny Shooter. Here's an article from the Atlanta Journal Constitution. Our MEC's sarcastic comment in red:


ajc.com > Business
Pilots protest DHL cargo deal at UPS headquarters

By RACHEL TOBIN RAMOS
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 07/24/08 About 50 pilots who fly for DHL showed up outside UPS' Sandy Springs headquarters this morning to protest a proposed air cargo deal between the two large shippers.
One pilot, John Nolan, drove seven hours from Blue Ridge, Va., with his wife, Carrie, and children, 7-year-old Cameron and 7-month-old Jack.
"I'm worried about my daddy's job," Cameron said.
The pilots (and family) marched outside UPS' entrance, holding bright red placards that read: "UPS/DHL destroying 10,000 American jobs."
Overhead, a yellow biplane flew a banner blasting the deal, and on the street, a billboard truck explained further: "UPS: delivering pink slips."
The pilots, part of the Air Line Pilots Association union, are upset because the proposed deal will put them out of work. The pilots fly for ASTAR, which almost exclusively carriers cargo for DHL, the German post office owned carrier that in 2003 made an aggressive bid to compete with UPS and FedEx on their home turf by expanding its U.S. hub in Wilmington, Ohio. But five years later, DHL has cried uncle, saying its U.S. operations are losing money.
To stave off further losses, the company has proposed allowing one of its main competitors, UPS, to fly its cargo into and throughout North America.
For UPS, it would be a $1 billion annual contract. But for two DHL cargo contractors, ASTAR and ABX, about 1,150 pilots would lose their jobs, plus about 8,000 other Wilmington, Ohio, workers.
In Ohio, a congressional delegation has persuaded the White House to appoint a representative to monitor the deal. Karl Zinsmeister, director of the White House Domestic Policy Council, President Bush's chief domestic policy adviser, will keep on eye on the proposal, which could still be months away from completion.
The ALPA pilots have claimed the deal could violate antitrust laws. UPS spokesman Norman Black, who was also outside of UPS headquarters this morning watching the protest, said, "Every lawyer for the two companies that has examined this has concluded there are no antitrust implications."
UPS provided cold bottled water to the pilots, because, as Black said, he wasn't sure they'd be prepared for Georgia's hot summers. The day proved mild.
"That was very nice of them," said Capt. Pat Walsh, who represents the ASTAR pilots in ALPA. "I hope they'll also save our jobs by walking away from this deal."





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[shooter]

I had seen that, and he is right. You know me by now. My A-hole actions would have left the bottles on the ground untouched. Had someone go find a Georgia Mountain or Dasani truck and slapped a C note to the driver to come drop off a few cases of water. On the stack of water left behind would be a nice note. Something that read close to;

Dear Mr.Black
Thank you for your offer which shows Southern hospitality. Unfortunately at this time the only offer we can accept would be one that preserves the jobs of 10,000 Ohio workers and their families. blah blah blah, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Norm represents a company looking at $10 BILLION+ reasons to ink this deal. It's really no more complicated than that and certainly not personal.

While I, and every other pilot, can sympathize with the many lost jobs and the very serious consequences that represents for thousands of families I'm at a loss to understand why you're picketing UPS? Brown has a fiduciary responsibility to its hundreds of thousands of shareholders (~1.1 billion shares outstanding) to provide the greatest return possible on their invested dollar. Jobs lost at one of its competitors doesn't even register on UPS's list of business concerns, nor should it (from a UPS shareholder's perspective.)

Just imagine what the numerous pension fund managers and investment houses would say and do should UPS not capitalize on this revenue opportunity?

On another note... as others have mentioned... UPS takes it very seriously when you attack their brand or image in the slightest manner. I can quite confidently venture a guess that as a result of this public attack (and this is how it will be perceived in ATL) not a single former Astar or ABX pilot will ever be hired by Brown (regardless of whether they took part in this demonstration or not.) I'm not sure you realize the management culture at UPS.

Good luck to you fellas, but I think you received some bad advice attacking UPS in their home city.

BBB

 

[shooter]

Norm represents a company looking at $10 BILLION+ reasons to ink this deal. It's really no more complicated than that and certainly not personal.

While I, and every other pilot, can sympathize with the many lost jobs and the very serious consequences that represents for thousands of families I'm at a loss to understand why you're picketing UPS? Brown has a fiduciary responsibility to its hundreds of thousands of shareholders (~1.1 billion shares outstanding) to provide the greatest return possible on their invested dollar. Jobs lost at one of its competitors doesn't even register on UPS's list of business concerns, nor should it (from a UPS shareholder's perspective.)

Just imagine what the numerous pension fund managers and investment houses would say and do should UPS not capitalize on this revenue opportunity?

On another note... as others have mentioned... UPS takes it very seriously when you attack their brand or image in the slightest manner. I can quite confidently venture a guess that as a result of this public attack (and this is how it will be perceived in ATL) not a single former Astar or ABX pilot will ever be hired by Brown (regardless of whether they took part in this demonstration or not.) I'm not sure you realize the management culture at UPS.

Good luck to you fellas, but I think you received some bad advice attacking UPS in their home city.

BBB

If that really is how your management would handle a situation such as this, you guys must just LOVE going to work each day. What time did they assign you to use the restroom? :laugh:

 

[hvydriver]

BBB, I hear what you're saying, but I don't understand why many of you seem to think we'd start over at UPS. We really, truly don't care. But thanks for your concern, but again, we don't care if UPS black balls us or what. Not enough available jobs there to matter.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

If that really is how your management would handle a situation such as this, you guys must just LOVE going to work each day.

Writing a letter to the CEO or board of directors explaining your concern is one thing, but picketing a competing company's HQ is quite another. In public and in front of the media, you are attacking UPS for destroying thousands of jobs and tarnishing their brand/image. UPS employs about 440,000 worldwide. Every worker in the US, whether part-time or full, receives full medical care. The drivers, pilots, mechanics, and dispatchers are among the highest paid in the nation within their fields of expertise. UPS is a good corporate citizen with a large charitable arm. Your attack upon UPS is misdirected.

Most in management have worked their way up the ranks through decades of dedicated service and intermittent hardship. They are passionate about Brown's success. They bleed Brown. This is NOT a company led by a string of highly compensated outside CEO's. Thousands have poured their lives into this organization and many will take this attack personally. This is the Brown corporate culture.

As for working for Brown... I have my gripes from time to time... but in general, show up, fly your trip safely and you won't hear a peep from them till your annual recurrent date rolls around. I'm a simple man Shooter, so it's a good fit for me.

BBB

PS Hvy... I understand YOU have chosen to not seek employment with UPS in the future. The problem is that this little stunt will most likely prevent ALL of you from ever receiving employment from Brown. The aviation world is relatively small and you just eliminated one of the better fish, IMO. YMMV.

 

[hvydriver]

BBB, since UPS has stated that they have no intention of hiring any AAC/ABX pilots, I really don't think there is any hope for any of our guys there. I further think that our guys realize that. Like I've said before, there is no need to get excited about a handful of job offers, when 1100 pilots are getting their pink slips.

 

[shooter]

Writing a letter to the CEO or board of directors explaining your concern is one thing, but picketing a competing company's HQ is quite another. In public and in front of the media, you are attacking UPS for destroying thousands of jobs and tarnishing their brand/image. UPS employs about 440,000 worldwide. Every worker in the US, whether part-time or full, receives full medical care. The drivers, pilots, mechanics, and dispatchers are among the highest paid in the nation within their fields of expertise. UPS is a good corporate citizen with a large charitable arm. Your attack upon UPS is misdirected.

Most in management have worked their way up the ranks through decades of dedicated service and intermittent hardship. They are passionate about Brown's success. They bleed Brown. This is NOT a company led by a string of highly compensated outside CEO's. Thousands have poured their lives into this organization and many will take this attack personally. This is the Brown corporate culture.

As for working for Brown... I have my gripes from time to time... but in general, show up, fly your trip safely and you won't hear a peep from them till your annual recurrent date rolls around. I'm a simple man Shooter, so it's a good fit for me.

BBB

PS Hvy... I understand YOU have chosen to not seek employment with UPS in the future. The problem is that this little stunt will most likely prevent ALL of you from ever receiving employment from Brown. The aviation world is relatively small and you just eliminated one of the better fish, IMO. YMMV.

I have no problem with UPS, I know it is all DHL's doing and destruction. I will agree they are making a business move. But hvy is right when he points out that UPS spokesman Mr.Black did make a point that they have no intention of hiring displaced DHL workers. That puts a personal touch on a business decision and shows complete lack of even a shred of compassion for what all these people are going through. And if Mr.Black is the public voice of UPS, then UPS should be prepared for the reaction to those words because they contradict the Brown culture you know.

And if the management would hold every individual within the two groups responsible because a few would have a public showing of displeasure (which I feel they have every right to in this case) seems like a management group no person should have to work under. You have actual experience that says it is not that bad and I believe you. But like I said earlier, Mr. Black has publicly stated he has absolutely no compassion for DHL workers. He must just like pouring salt in open wounds. OH WAIT....he could be BTTB.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

BBB, since UPS has stated that they have no intention of hiring any AAC/ABX pilots, I really don't think there is any hope for any of our guys there. I further think that our guys realize that. Like I've said before, there is no need to get excited about a handful of job offers, when 1100 pilots are getting their pink slips.

I read the quote I think you are referring to from Black. One could infer that he was simply clarifying that no Astar/ABX pilots would be hired [IMMEDIATELY] as part of this deal... that the two were not connected. I really do not know what he meant. At any rate, with emotions running high, I sure wouldn't let that one statement by a corporate spokesman on day one of the announced deal deter me from obtaining employment at Brown if that is where I'd really like to hang my hat.

Hvy... you have repeatedly dismissed UPS as only offering a small number of pilot jobs. While that may be accurate in the short term, over the next 20 years the number of new hire pilots at Brown "could" be substantial. Perhaps some in your ranks are young enough for that time frame after seeking interim employment elsewhere? I was taught never to burn bridges or choose hastily in such situations.

In any case, I wish you the best.

BBB

 

[Big Beer Belly]

And if the management would hold every individual within the two groups responsible because a few would have a public showing of displeasure (which I feel they have every right to in this case) seems like a management group no person should have to work under.

Shooter,

I've read a number of your posts and all I can say is that we have very different views of the world. Specifically, corporations do not exist, NOR SHOULD THEY, to provide jobs. Corporations exist to create, through product or service, wealth. You can choose to participate in that wealth creation by seeking employment from that corporation or investing in it and hoping for a return on your "at-risk" capital.

This notion that you shouldn't have to work for a "mean management" is silly. UPS is a HUGE company with many employees. More often than not, there is no forethought to slight a worker. It's simply a byproduct of such a large, impersonal organization. Once you understand this, and can handle the impersonal aspect, working for a behemoth is a piece of cake. It sounds as if your personality would find greater satisfaction in a small company where your inputs are considered and valued. I say this with all sincerity.

Also, best wishes to you.

BBB

 

[shooter]

Shooter,

I've read a number of your posts and all I can say is that we have very different views of the world. Specifically, corporations do not exist, NOR SHOULD THEY, to provide jobs. Corporations exist to create, through product or service, wealth. You can choose to participate in that wealth creation by seeking employment from that corporation or investing in it and hoping for a return on your "at-risk" capital.

This notion that you shouldn't have to work for a "mean management" is silly. UPS is a HUGE company with many employees. More often than not, there is no forethought to slight a worker. It's simply a byproduct of such a large, impersonal organization. Once you understand this, and can handle the impersonal aspect, working for a behemoth is a piece of cake. It sounds as if your personality would find greater satisfaction in a small company where your inputs are considered and valued. I say this with all sincerity.

Also, best wishes to you.

BBB

LOL, thats funny. I never said "mean management", but I have studied management of people and I believe that is what makes a company. Maybe you are right that I would fit into a small organization better than a large one. But I also know of many large ones that value their employees and know they come first. That without the people, they would not be where they are. Not that I am staying in aviation but Southwest comes to mind. Herb knows the value of the employee. Google, a GREAT example of their people first. A couple others are American Express and P&G. So I will not be alone putting people first. And you know what, I like putting people first.

I plan on opening my own business out of this DHL disaster. I hope it will be a success and need to hire. When I do, I will chose select people and treat them as I would like to be treated. I do not think I owe them a job as you suggest. I just know to treat them well and not send their jobs to India where my customers complain.

Happy workers are productive workers.
Happy workers make happy customers.
Happy customers are repeat customers.
Repeat customers are GOLD.

 

[767pilot]

Oh, it starts with a bottle of water...

The DHL pilots should consider themselves lucky to get such largess from UPS. UPS stresses to the rampers how important it is to drink water, and then cut out the free water that they used to supply

 

[767pilot]

Hvy... you have repeatedly dismissed UPS as only offering a small number of pilot jobs. While that may be accurate in the short term, over the next 20 years the number of new hire pilots at Brown "could" be substantial.

Even if it is a small number, perhaps the father of 7-year-old Cameron and 7-month-old Jack would like to be considered for one. The IPA will do what it can to help out, hvydrvr shouldn't get in the way of those actually wanting a job here. Recovering just a few of those "lost american jobs" will be a victory.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

BBB, since UPS has stated that they have no intention of hiring any AAC/ABX pilots, I really don't think there is any hope for any of our guys there.

A few former Astar pilots have already gone to UPS, and I believe there are a couple more "in the pool" but are keeping quiet about it out of respect for their co-workers during these difficult times.

Those who were hired were offered jobs based on merit, not because they marched on UPS' headquarters.

I believe that Mr. Black's comments were meant to convey the fact that Astar/ABX pilots would not be hired "en masse," nor given preferential treatment during any part of the hiring process. No matter what any HR person or union president tells you, that's pretty much how it works in every business...the company fills vacancies with the best candidates available at the time.

I hope that any Astar/ABX guys who "fit the profile" won't be discouraged from applying at UPS when the window opens up.

 

[ABXbooger]

I can find no fault in what UPS is doing...it's simply called business. When UPS bought Menlo, did you Astar boys go picket for them?

I lay the blame squarely at the feet of DHL alone. I also seem to remember many Astar people vigourously defending DHL and saying things like "that's how DHL has always done it, ABX should just get in step...etc". That worked pretty well, huh?

 

[hvydriver]

I can find no fault in what UPS is doing...it's simply called business. When UPS bought Menlo, did you Astar boys go picket for them?

I lay the blame squarely at the feet of DHL alone. I also seem to remember many Astar people vigourously defending DHL and saying things like "that's how DHL has always done it, ABX should just get in step...etc". That worked pretty well, huh?

It would have if you did, but ya didn't. Water under the bridge now, and no longer relevant.

 

[hvydriver]

Even if it is a small number, perhaps the father of 7-year-old Cameron and 7-month-old Jack would like to be considered for one. The IPA will do what it can to help out, hvydrvr shouldn't get in the way of those actually wanting a job here. Recovering just a few of those "lost american jobs" will be a victory.

Thanks for giving me more credit than I deserve. I don't think I'm "getting in anyones way". The odds of getting on with UPS would be akin to hitting powerball for the father of Cameron, who's a friend of mine. We're a small carrier. We all know each other. While I and everyone appreciates Miller asking for preferential interviews for ABX/Astar types, as many of your own have stated, the IPA/UPS relationship isn't exactly wine and roses.