Picken's $700 Billion Plan

[Sailpilot]

Do you realize how many Windmills it would take to Power NYC?

.

Depends:

Locations of windmills. Diameter of blades. Average velocity of flow. Interference (transfer friction of voltage transmission). Diameter of transfer cables. Temparture of above or below ground cables. Just to name a few of the variables.

*I might know a little about this subject, but please keep going.

Another option: Hydrogeneration in the Rivers that surrond your example of NY city.

** Before you start making another statement about this option ... let me stop you and say it's already in use on a smaller scale. (Google Hydro energy east river)

 

[rajflyboy]

Depends:

Locations of windmills. Diameter of blades. Average velocity of flow. Interference (transfer friction of voltage transmission). Diameter of transfer cables. Temparture of above or below ground cables. Just to name a few of the variables.

*I might know a little about this subject, but please keep going.

Another option: Hydrogeneration in the Rivers that surrond your example of NY city.

** Before you start making another statement about this option ... let me stop you and say it's already in use on a smaller scale. (Google Hydro energy east river)

Yes

Its called a Dam

Here is a great one! http://www.tva.com/sites/fontana.htm

 

[Sailpilot]

Yes

Its called a Dam

Here is a great one! http://www.tva.com/sites/fontana.htm

You can't even get that right!!!!!!!

Have you seen a Dam on the east river??????

You have to be just messing with me!

If your not; It's a hydroturbine submerged in the water. Size is about same as a chevy tahoe. They had to place the turbine twice. First time, the engineers underestimated the force placed on the turbine with currents traveling around 5 knots. Second placement, shortened blades while generating a highier amount of power then originally thought possible.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6344642

Please, if your just joking... Hahaha, good one.
If not.... do you fly aircraft!?

 

[rajflyboy]

Dam's also produce energy hero.

Fontana is one of the many dam's in Western NC that produce energy.

 

[Sailpilot]

Dam's also produce energy hero.

Fontana is one of the many dam's in Western NC that produce energy.

Ummmm Okkk??? Thanks for the lesson?

So Captain, what did you fly to get 17500 hours? I'm calling bullsh!t. I'm thinking, college kid, probably UND? I did like the comment about you being a "taxpayer". Pst, paying for music on itunes and not pirating it is not a "tax".

 

[coolyokeluke]

Ok

How is that Windmill going to Power the Jet you fly? You know.... The one you earn a salary Flying?

You're either a flame baiter or a simpleton. The idea is that you reduce petroleum demand by alternatives and that will leave more oil to be made into JetA.

Many city buses run on natural gas. It's not an exotic technology.

There is no more cheap, easy to get oil. There is plenty of oil out there, but it's deeper, more viscous, sulpher laden, in smaller deposits, etc. The world has not located a major oil field in many many years, and most of the major fields are in decline. It is past time to be looking at alternative ways of doing things.

 

[Mr.B]

I sure can't find a Natural Gas Pump at any gas station I have been too.

This technology and system isn't ready to go yet here in America. Possibly in the future.

Oil Powers the Jets that pay us.

They have them at.....ready.....AIRPORTS!

 

[rajflyboy]

You're either a flame baiter or a simpleton. The idea is that you reduce petroleum demand by alternatives and that will leave more oil to be made into JetA.

Many city buses run on natural gas. It's not an exotic technology.

There is no more cheap, easy to get oil. There is plenty of oil out there, but it's deeper, more viscous, sulpher laden, in smaller deposits, etc. The world has not located a major oil field in many many years, and most of the major fields are in decline. It is past time to be looking at alternative ways of doing things.[/quote]

If you believe that line of BS then I think you should try to find a NEW career!

 

[Soverytired]

I'll say this for Pickens .. . 20% of all electricity via solar and wind in 10 years (cost 1 trillion dollars) is at least achievable, and a goal within reach with current technology and has measurable results.

Contrast this with Al Gore's "plan" which would cost tens of trillions, has no specific goals other than "save the planet somehow", magic and non-existant technology, and moving goalposts.

 

[rajflyboy]

I'd be fine with T Boone if he would use his own money for the project!!

 

[Secret Squirrel]

I'd be fine with T Boone if he would use his own money for the project!!

Nobody actually uses their own money. Rich people come up with a successful plan and get many investors to spread out the risk ( and also to share in the potential profits). Havn't you ever read Rich dad poor dad?

 

[skydash]

Learn to spell

No they are not down for that reason. There was an unexpected build in inventories. Remember a few months back when Saudi said they will be increasing production by 700000 barrels a day? After that announcement, the price basically went up.

Your full of crap.

The reason it matters is because the drill, drill, drill croud keeps saying that it will lower our dependance on foriegn oil. Well if our demand stays the same, and some of that new oil is shipped over seas, then you still have to import the same amount.

It is also miss leading to say things like ANWR would supply 5% of US consumption because it implies that the affect on our gas price would be at least a 5% savings. Well oil is priced based on world supply and demand. So it would add only about 1% to world supply, and would have a negligable affect on oil prices.

ANWR at its peak would produce about a million barrels per day. Sounds awful close the the 700K barrels the Saudis pledged to increase. When the price went up.

Keep spreading the half truths.

How can you possibly expect ANYONE to take your points seriously when you can't even spell? Geez...

 

[skydash]

After reading Pickens plan,I have a few questions...
$1.2 trillion dollars to substitute wind power for natural gas electric production. Then we run our cars on natural gas. OK. My car doesn't run on natural gas and I have no idea where I could purchase natural gas if it did. So we need to build a nationwide natural gas distribution network. How much is this going to cost? Then large numbers of us have to buy natural gas cars, which no manufacturer sells because there are few natural gas stations - see chicken and egg. I am going to assume maintenance on hundreds of thousands of wind turbines spread across the great plains will be roughly equal to that on additional nuclear and coal plants with the same electrical capacity. For $1.2 trillion, we can have 240 nuclear plants at $5 billion a piece. Nuclear power wins this contest hands down. Reliable base load, small footprint, clean, proven technology, close to end users, not subject to ice storms, tornados, floods, and lack of breeze. Picken's Plan sounds like another enormous government boondoggle/fleecing of taxpayers that has no advantages over existing technology but lots of disadvantages. Just build more power plants and drill for oil and gas. Why is this so complicated?

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Why is it so complicated? Because drilling for more gas and oil and building more coal and nuclear plants are all dead ends. The energy source will run out, and they money is wasted. That saying, we DO need more nuclear plants in the short-term, to help us bridge from oil/coal to renewables.

As for where to get natural gas? Lots of people (including me) have natural gas heat. Honda has a device that sits in your garage and pumps the natural gas into your car (the Honda Civic ng version).

Saying that no distribution system (for hydrogen, natural gas, whatever) is s showstopper is ignorant.

When gasoline powered cars came out (the "Alternative Fuel" of that era), there was no distribution system for gasoline. We built refineries, pipelines, gas stations, roads, motels and drive-thrus.

If we want to, we can build a distribution system for hydrogen, or whatever else we want.

Can we burn gasoline our cars 250 years from now? No. It's a dead end.

The sooner we switch to renewables, the better off we'll be.

cliff
YIP

 

[coolyokeluke]

You're either a flame baiter or a simpleton. The idea is that you reduce petroleum demand by alternatives and that will leave more oil to be made into JetA.

Many city buses run on natural gas. It's not an exotic technology.

There is no more cheap, easy to get oil. There is plenty of oil out there, but it's deeper, more viscous, sulpher laden, in smaller deposits, etc. The world has not located a major oil field in many many years, and most of the major fields are in decline. It is past time to be looking at alternative ways of doing things.[/quote]

If you believe that line of BS then I think you should try to find a NEW career!

Aviation accounts for about 5% of world oil consumption. If we switch other forms of transportation and energy production to alternatives there will be enough to keep me flying for a while. If.

Here's something to ponder:
Obviously, the easiest, most economical solution is to find new giant or super giant oilfields where large volumes of oil can be extracted and brought to world markets at low cost. That is just what is not the case today. According to a recent report from the Colorado School of Mines, 'The World's Giant Oilfields,' the world's '120 largest oilfields produce close to 33 million barrels a day, almost 50% of the world's crude oil supply. The fourteen largest account for over 20%. The average age of these 14 largest fields is 43.5 years.' 1
The above study concludes that 'most of the world's true giants were found decades ago.' Over the past 20 years despite investment of hundreds of billions dollars by major oil companies, results have been alarmingly disappointing.
The world's major oil companies - Exxon-Mobil, Shell, ChevronTexaco, BP, ElfTotal and others - have invested hundreds of billions of dollars in finding enough oil to replace the existing oil supply sources. Between 1996 and 1999, some 145 companies spent $410 billion to find enough oil only to keep their daily production stable at 30 million barrels a day. From 1999 to 2002, the five largest companies spent another $150 billion and their production grew only from 16 million barrels a day to 16.6 million barrels, a tiny increase

 

[Cheeta]

After reading Pickens plan,I have a few questions...
$1.2 trillion dollars to substitute wind power for natural gas electric production. Then we run our cars on natural gas. OK. My car doesn't run on natural gas and I have no idea where I could purchase natural gas if it did. So we need to build a nationwide natural gas distribution network. How much is this going to cost? Then large numbers of us have to buy natural gas cars, which no manufacturer sells because there are few natural gas stations - see chicken and egg. I am going to assume maintenance on hundreds of thousands of wind turbines spread across the great plains will be roughly equal to that on additional nuclear and coal plants with the same electrical capacity. For $1.2 trillion, we can have 240 nuclear plants at $5 billion a piece. Nuclear power wins this contest hands down. Reliable base load, small footprint, clean, proven technology, close to end users, not subject to ice storms, tornados, floods, and lack of breeze. Picken's Plan sounds like another enormous government boondoggle/fleecing of taxpayers that has no advantages over existing technology but lots of disadvantages. Just build more power plants and drill for oil and gas. Why is this so complicated?

The plan calls for 25% to 30% of all cars and trucks to be CNG in 5 to 7 years.

All domestic diesel trucks can be converted to CNG ...EPA approved kits available NOW!

Ford and Chevy both make and have made CNG Cars and Trucks, both come with $4000.00 Tax credit and most states have $2000.00 to $4000.00 cash after purchases.

Now the Honda Civic GX ....they will make 1800 this year...on the same Ohio assembly line as the regular Honda Civic car. This is 98% the same car. They can build as many as they want NOW! http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/

1800 public CNG fueling stations and 2500 more sim-private stations....they will give you an access card. $0.91 to $2.40 per gal. Google map it!

EPA approved home fueling station that hangs on the wall of your garage and hooks up to the natural gas that comes in to your home or that is at the curb of 75% of all homes in America...Cost ...$1500.00 after tax credit and makes CNG for $1.25 a gal.

This country could change over 25% to 35% to CNG in just a few years...we have 60 years of known Natural gas reserves. This will cut CO2 emissions 30%!

I just ordered a 2009 Honda Civic GX...I got $9600.00 of federal state and YES local cash and tax breaks....Austin TX

 

[rajflyboy]

Hi!

Why is it so complicated? Because drilling for more gas and oil and building more coal and nuclear plants are all dead ends. The energy source will run out, and they money is wasted. That saying, we DO need more nuclear plants in the short-term, to help us bridge from oil/coal to renewables.

As for where to get natural gas? Lots of people (including me) have natural gas heat. Honda has a device that sits in your garage and pumps the natural gas into your car (the Honda Civic ng version).

Saying that no distribution system (for hydrogen, natural gas, whatever) is s showstopper is ignorant.

When gasoline powered cars came out (the "Alternative Fuel" of that era), there was no distribution system for gasoline. We built refineries, pipelines, gas stations, roads, motels and drive-thrus.

If we want to, we can build a distribution system for hydrogen, or whatever else we want.

Can we burn gasoline our cars 250 years from now? No. It's a dead end.

The sooner we switch to renewables, the better off we'll be.

cliff
YIP

Gas is 4 dollars a gallon right now. This is causing prices to rise at the grocery store and other places.

We need relief Today. Not a year or two from now. Sure.. we should continue to work on new technology. That technology is not going to lower gas prices today. Its a year or two off Minimum.

We have plenty of oil left here in the USA. Its estimated that the LAX region has 9 billion barrels. Thats not even counting the Rocky Mountain Region, Anwar or Offshore sights.

I don't see Natural Gas distribution sights going up all over the place. Its not happening.

You are still dreaming.

We have plenty of oil and lets go get it and reduce our dependency on Middle East Europe.

Shoot... looks just this week.. Bush stops the executive ban on offshore drilling and Bingo... look at what happened to the price of a barrel of oil? It went down.

 

[Freeze_gopher]

After reading Pickens plan,I have a few questions...
$1.2 trillion dollars to substitute wind power for natural gas electric production. Then we run our cars on natural gas. OK. My car doesn't run on natural gas and I have no idea where I could purchase natural gas if it did. So we need to build a nationwide natural gas distribution network. How much is this going to cost? Then large numbers of us have to buy natural gas cars, which no manufacturer sells because there are few natural gas stations - see chicken and egg. I am going to assume maintenance on hundreds of thousands of wind turbines spread across the great plains will be roughly equal to that on additional nuclear and coal plants with the same electrical capacity. For $1.2 trillion, we can have 240 nuclear plants at $5 billion a piece. Nuclear power wins this contest hands down. Reliable base load, small footprint, clean, proven technology, close to end users, not subject to ice storms, tornados, floods, and lack of breeze. Picken's Plan sounds like another enormous government boondoggle/fleecing of taxpayers that has no advantages over existing technology but lots of disadvantages. Just build more power plants and drill for oil and gas. Why is this so complicated?

You are asking a very logical question. I haven't read this entire thread so someone may have brought this up already.

Why is it so complicated? It's a sales pitch! Nothing more. T. Boone Pickens is an oil man and runs a very large investment company. The frenzy in believing that the oil industry is crashing around our heads is meant to increase the value of energy related investments.

Don't believe me? Here’s where T Boone is making his money:


Hmmmmmmmmm?

 

[coolyokeluke]

Gas is 4 dollars a gallon right now. This is causing prices to rise at the grocery store and other places.

We need relief Today. Not a year or two from now. Sure.. we should continue to work on new technology. That technology is not going to lower gas prices today. Its a year or two off Minimum.

We have plenty of oil left here in the USA. Its estimated that the LAX region has 9 billion barrels. Thats not even counting the Rocky Mountain Region, Anwar or Offshore sights.

I don't see Natural Gas distribution sights going up all over the place. Its not happening.

You are still dreaming.

We have plenty of oil and lets go get it and reduce our dependency on Middle East Europe.

Shoot... looks just this week.. Bush stops the executive ban on offshore drilling and Bingo... look at what happened to the price of a barrel of oil? It went down.

More misconceptions. As mentioned before, estimated reserves include all oil, not just economically feasable recovery oil. It also takes a long time to permit, find, test drill, establish production, and bring to market new oil and gas reserves. The oil companies have leases on a lot of areas that they haven't explored or tested right now. There's nothing stopping them from working those areas except for expending resources to do so. Didn't you notice when the Saudis agreed to increase supply of oil by 200k bbl and then 700k bbl a day? The markets didn't respond in a downward direction. Unfortunately there is no "right now" solution. I'm not happy about it anymore than anybody else, I'm going to the right seat because of oil prices.

Natural gas is available and many sources, such as where you fill up your cylinder for the grill. There are public pumps in many locations such as your local airport. Are you going to keep arguing the chicken and egg scenario and therefore be stuck with what we have until it's completely economically unfeasible? Existing vehicles can be converted to run on natural gas. And check out the Honda website, you can fill your car from your natural gas supply at home that you use for your range.

And the executive ban on offshore drilling? That is symbolic right now because Congress still has to lift their ban for the presidential measure to any effect at all. The downward trend in oil prices is because of investor fears over the slowing world economy and the unexpectedly large increase in US inventories.

 

[Soverytired]

Hi!

Why is it so complicated? Because drilling for more gas and oil and building more coal and nuclear plants are all dead ends. The energy source will run out, and they money is wasted. That saying, we DO need more nuclear plants in the short-term, to help us bridge from oil/coal to renewables.

As for where to get natural gas? Lots of people (including me) have natural gas heat. Honda has a device that sits in your garage and pumps the natural gas into your car (the Honda Civic ng version).

Saying that no distribution system (for hydrogen, natural gas, whatever) is s showstopper is ignorant.

When gasoline powered cars came out (the "Alternative Fuel" of that era), there was no distribution system for gasoline. We built refineries, pipelines, gas stations, roads, motels and drive-thrus.

If we want to, we can build a distribution system for hydrogen, or whatever else we want.

Can we burn gasoline our cars 250 years from now? No. It's a dead end.

The sooner we switch to renewables, the better off we'll be.

cliff
YIP

Yes and no (good post, BTW). Oil is only a "dead end" once it becomes prohibitively expensive. It certainly hasn't been a "dead end" as it fueled the last 100 years of prosperity and growth unheard of in all of human history. I don't think it's there yet.

That said, once it becomes too expensive, I'm convinced that natural gas WILL be the next mass trasportation fuel. All the other options are just pipe dreams and government boondoggles; natural gas is an extremely easy switch-over fuel.

That Honda Civic is AWESOME. Fill up at home, costs about 1/10th to fill up compared to current gas prices. Neat.

Oh . . there will NEVER be a hydrogen distribution system. To say otherwise IS ignorant. No point haggling over details, but hydrogen as anything other than a specialized energy carrier is a fantasy.