Leave Fortune 100 for NJA?

[matthewjohn]

Would any corp guys leave their dep to go to NJA?

Assume:
1--you are a CA,
2--you would take a pay cut till about year 3-5 (depending on sched and aircraft) if you stay an FO, 3--you do not know your sched untll 1700 the day prior at current job,
4--benefits and 401k at NJ are better.
5--Present company says they are making good profits even in the economy so seems "secure" for long run (I have 35 years till I can retire)
6--Average about 5-6 overnights a month, do about 3-4 day trips a week, but still are not usually home untill late evening, and have additional duties to do on days not flying.
7--This is a Fortune 100 company.

I dont dislike the current job that is why I think this might be a tough call for me. Any constructive input would be appreciated.

Please dont ask about current company or interviews with NJA. I'll let anyone know that cares what I decided when I do. Thanks.

 

[Rook]

Crop guys? (Sorry Matt If I didn't do it, someone else would've.)

Based on bennies, I'd probably look into NJA.

 

[EngineThunder]

Matt,
I have spent the last eight years at a Fortune 200 flight department. We average 3-4 days a week and 8 RON's per month and also have some extra duties on the side. I spent two years at Flight Options before I got my current job. I know they are not the same but that schedule of 8 or 7 seven days on can be rough. It is followed by 7 or 6 days off but I found it took a couple of those days just to recover from the 7 or 8 on. If I were in your shoes I would stay with Fortune 100. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Mercury]

Would any crop guys leave their dep to go to NJA?

Assume:
1--you are a CA,
2--you would take a pay cut till about year 3-5 (depending on sched and aircraft) if you stay an FO, 3--you do not know your sched untll 1700 the day prior at current job,
4--benefits and 401k at NJ are better.
5--Present company says they are making good profits even in the economy so seems "secure" for long run (I have 35 years till I can retire)
6--Average about 5-6 overnights a month, do about 3-4 day trips a week, but still are not usually home untill late evening, and have additional duties to do on days not flying.
7--This is a Fortune 100 company.

I dont dislike the current job that is why I think this might be a tough call for me. Any constructive input would be appreciated.

Please dont ask about current company or interviews with NJA. I'll let anyone know that cares what I decided when I do. Thanks.

MJ,

Interesting dillemma. I'm sure you'll get lots of opinions on corp vs. frac. The toughest part will be sorting them all out and deciding which apply to your specific situation and which ones dont. In the end the correct decision is the one that will make you, the wife, family, the happiest.
That said, Examine the factors that have led you to look into making the switch. Pay?, schedule?, Overall QOL?, burn out?, frustrations with mgmnt? etc. Do you see these issues getting better, worse or staying the same in the next 12-18 months? Do you think or have intel re: NJA that makes you feel that the overall situation would be better there? Just some brainstorming food as you go down this road.

I made the move from 121 Regional CA to corporate about 5 years ago and it has worked out thus far for me. I can sympathize with your comments about the schedule, ours seems to change by the hour some days, however in the grand scheme of things: I am home with my family more than I ever was at the regionals, 6 mile drive to work vs. 38 mile drive and the pay almost doubled by year 2. the benefits and retirement are two compelling issues. However with 35 yrs left to go you should have ton of time to plan/save for the golden years. Get something ggoing now outsdie of your company plan, even if its only $100 per pay. Our retirement plan will be changing soon,therefore my wife and I have had to readjust our personal savings habits outside of the company plan to include a Roth and a money market acct.

I dont have any first hand experience w/ the fracs, so I'll let others give you the good and bad of that world.

So now that I've blown all that hot air,I guess I should answer the question: At this time I wouldnt leave my current job to go to NJA. Once again, this is an individual choice of where I see myself being happier. I think the 7 on - 7 off would just about kill me by day 5 of being gone. I know I wouldnt do well being away from my family for that many days every other week. I know a few guys that fly at NJA and love it, they wouldnt think of leaving for a 91 gig.


Best of luck in your choices and when the time comes let me know what you decide.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Only you can make such a decision...Fortune 100 corporate gigs vary in QOL and PAY as much as all the fractional gigs do.

I can say that the guys I know at NJA work much harder than the vast majority of corp guys I know.

As far as economics - don't let the hype of the internet boards fool you, ALL areas can be affected by money slowing down. Corporations may shrink their fleets, and fractional customers may quit and just charter a few times a year...it's all about cutting budgets and saving money. However, I don't see either sector getting hammered, as the airlines have made traveling such a wretched nightmare and impossible to conduct business with.

The pay, benefits, days off, etc vary widely in corporate.

How senior are you in your department? What if they had cutbacks?

I personally wouldn't jump to the bottom of ANYONES senority list today.

Good luck with your decision!

 

[AA717driver]

You have to look at NJA as an airline job. In that it's seniority based--if you're going to go, then go ASAP.

You'll work more than a 91 job (unless you're large cabin, then the trips can be long).

You could always tough it out for awhile and shop for other 91 jobs.

Knowing your schedule is a good thing. Busting your butt 7 days in a row is tough--and probably won't get any easier as you get older.

Good luck. TC

 

[FlyingPieceOfSt]

Simple Logic

Here is my simple formula:

If you have to pack and unpack a suitcase more than twice a week as well as end up with two different room keys in your wallet per week then just say no to crack, I mean NJA.

 

[NGT]

I am at my 8th Corp flight Dept. 5 of them Fortune 300 or better, including EngineThunders. I would only consider NJA if location were more important than QOL. NJA has some of the best pay and benefits in all of Corp and now more than almost all 121 gigs but you HAVE to be able to handle the schedule. Those that can and enjoy it have probably the best job out there but those that can't burn out fast and dread each rotation more and more. If you are willing to move and be flexible try another Big 91 gig until you find the right fit. The good news is with your 91 background if you do try NJA and don't like it you will probably have a much easier time leaving than the flood of 121 to 91 guy's. I have totaly exhausted the grass is greener theory but have found the right job for me! It's a rare opportunity in this market to have a good job while you're waiting for the great job to open. Make absolutely sure you can do the 7 on 7 off before you leave what you have! Santuli and Buffet don't just give away money, the NJA pilots have done an incredible job and went through a lot of misery to make it the job it is today!(I personaly loved the billboards!)

 

[tracearabians]

Would any corp guys leave their dep to go to NJA?

Assume:
1--you are a CA,
2--you would take a pay cut till about year 3-5 (depending on sched and aircraft) if you stay an FO, 3--you do not know your sched untll 1700 the day prior at current job,
4--benefits and 401k at NJ are better.
5--Present company says they are making good profits even in the economy so seems "secure" for long run (I have 35 years till I can retire)
6--Average about 5-6 overnights a month, do about 3-4 day trips a week, but still are not usually home untill late evening, and have additional duties to do on days not flying.
7--This is a Fortune 100 company.

I dont dislike the current job that is why I think this might be a tough call for me. Any constructive input would be appreciated.

Please dont ask about current company or interviews with NJA. I'll let anyone know that cares what I decided when I do. Thanks.

It depends on how much you really like those nice ties at NJA . What are the extra duties when not flying ?

 

[FlyingPieceOfSt]

It depends on how much you really like those nice ties at NJA .

Too funny. :beer:

I know exactly 7 men who fly for NJA. Ages are between 30 and 45 with seniority ranging from 5 years to about 14 years at NJ. Out of those 7 four of them look atleast 10 to 20 years older than they actually are. Another basic theory comes to light:

7 days on packing and unpacking bags makes those bags under the eyes always look full. Scheduling literally can make NJ pilots pull their hair out! Or is it just male pattern baldness? I am also trying to figure out why half of my buds who fly for NJ have gained numerous poundage since they received their wings at NJA. Is it the hoarding of the catering and savoring of that perdiem check every month? Why is it many NJA flyguys feel like they hit the jackpot when 12am strikes on their 7th day and they are still in the center seat of a SWA flight home? Is that extra cash worth it?

Fellas, there are many good corporate gigs out here in the good ole USA. Forget saudi arabia where you can end up on liveleak.com with a great video of your ugly mug getting cut off. Forget about NJA if you like the idea of never being carded at a bar since you look way over 45. Keep your nose to the grind stone and use those excellent networking skills you know you have and find the premo job you have always wished for after you gave up on the airlines.

 

[psysicx]

Can't you bid a schedule shorter then 7 days? I thought they changed that.

 

[learflyer]

Dang, these anti-NJA (lifestyle, not bashing)threads are refreshing! Don't tell the guys in the Frac forums though. Your right, ain't nothing noble about packing, and unpacking that much in a month! I know, I used to frac at Flops. Home is where the heart is baby. No more spending my last day off getting ready for the next 7 or 8 days on!

 

[CA1900]

Can't you bid a schedule shorter then 7 days? I thought they changed that.

We have an option for a flexible schedule, which has no set days off, but has a maximum tour of 5 days and pays 10% more money (for 2 fewer workdays per year). I'm on it now, and I like it. It's limited to 10% of pilots (in each seat in each fleet). I may go back to the 7/7 down the road, as I like being able to make plans, but I'm in no hurry.

As for FlyingPieceOfSt's friends who look way older than they are, I don't know what to tell ya. I know a whole lot more NJA guys than he does, and none of them look older than they are. He must hang out with heavy drinkers.

 

[ditchpilot]

NO WAY!!!!
Just look at the faces on the frac guys in the hotel vans after a 12 hr five leg day and then look at the corprate guy after a 5 hr one leg day talking about what sights they are going to take in on their 2-day lay over.
Corp. flying wont fill your log books but at this stage of your career who needs more flight time.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

NO WAY!!!!
Just look at the faces on the frac guys in the hotel vans after a 12 hr five leg day and then look at the corprate guy after a 5 hr one leg day talking about what sights they are going to take in on their 2-day lay over.
Corp. flying wont fill your log books but at this stage of your career who needs more flight time.

How about the corp guy who just did the 16hr day, with a 13hr leg?


yeah, Id rather do that than 20 legs in a Citation, but comparing the two can be impossible. Do what makes you and your family happy.

I have also learned that the the more one brags about their job on the internet, the more likely it is that they are full of $hit.

 

[CA1900]

NO WAY!!!!
Just look at the faces on the frac guys in the hotel vans after a 12 hr five leg day....

Those aren't a regular event. More typical is 2-3 legs, and one or two of those is a <45 minute empty leg to reposition the plane.

It isn't for everyone, but it isn't the nightmare that's being painted by a couple of the guys here. Indeed, there are a lot of perks that you won't find at a corporate job, and that certainly offsets some of the negatives.

Here's a big one: my wife and I have decided we want to move across the country. With NJA, I go online and give 30 days' notice of what airport I want to fly out of. That's it -- I'm now based there. Were I in a typical corporate job, I'd be finding a new one, because the job is locked to a location.

Another one: a NJA guy is never called on his day off to cover a trip. When he's off, he's off, period. Not being on call helps me look so young. The 20-hour overnight in Cabo the other day didn't hurt either.

 

[tracearabians]

We have an option for a flexible schedule, which has no set days off, but has a maximum tour of 5 days and pays 10% more money (for 2 fewer workdays per year). I'm on it now, and I like it. It's limited to 10% of pilots (in each seat in each fleet). I may go back to the 7/7 down the road, as I like being able to make plans, but I'm in no hurry.

As for FlyingPieceOfSt's friends who look way older than they are, I don't know what to tell ya. I know a whole lot more NJA guys than he does, and none of them look older than they are. He must hang out with heavy drinkers.

I thought you had to be a heavy drinker just to be in this business !!?

 

[CA1900]

I thought you had to be a heavy drinker just to be in this business !!?

:laugh:

So true... :beer:

 

[Buckeye]

So Coporate guys how hard is it to say no? What backing do you have? Don't tell me "We have company SOP's and policies" Yeah great but if the boss wants to go, and there are no 91 duty times what do you do? I do realize that there are many upstanding corp outfits out there, but just like scumbag 135 there are some scumbag 91 outfits.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

So Coporate guys how hard is it to say no? What backing do you have? Don't tell me "We have company SOP's and policies" Yeah great but if the boss wants to go, and there are no 91 duty times what do you do? I do realize that there are many upstanding corp outfits out there, but just like scumbag 135 there are some scumbag 91 outfits.

What do you do?

You avoid scumbag 91 outfits....just you avoid scumbag 135 operations, scumbag airlines, and scumbag fractional outfits...pick and choose wisely.



Decent outfits follow SOPs and Policies - 91,135, or otherwise.

 

[FlyingPieceOfSt]

Buckeye:So Coporate guys how hard is it to say no?


Very easy to say no. Next question.

BTW, myself and my partner in crime on a recent flight changed the itinerary of going to an airport with a 4500 foot runway to one 45 driving miles away with a much longer runway even though our SOP's allow for a 4500 foot strip. Getting jealous yet? I guess you think 91 flyboys have no lee way when it comes to the boss's itinerary. The billionaire(s) I fly know their butt is worth more than risking a short runway than a 45 mile limo drive. All they asked was to leave 1 hour earlier to compensate. I wish you all the same luck with management, especially buckeye.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

My question, in today's economy, are you willing to go to the bottom of someone's seniority list? I'm pretty sure NJA is not like Options and is last in first out.

 

[Buckeye]

Bravo, Bravo so you made a decision based on conditions. I assume from the sound of it you are part of two guys and a plane? Do you have hard days off? Do you guys have part timers to rotate for vacation? The part 91 stuff I have seen involved an awful lot of Late arrivals followed by many early departures (8 hour turns). I suppose with no mandatory back ground check or PRIA a guy or gal could hide a few things? But enough bickering, obviously you can't follow FI policies with Avatars so I would not expect you to follow SOP's in the cockpit.

 

[FlyingPieceOfSt]

Bravo, Bravo so you made a decision based on conditions. I assume from the sound of it you are part of two guys and a plane? Do you have hard days off? Do you guys have part timers to rotate for vacation? The part 91 stuff I have seen involved an awful lot of Late arrivals followed by many early departures (8 hour turns). I suppose with no mandatory back ground check or PRIA a guy or gal could hide a few things? But enough bickering, obviously you can't follow FI policies with Avatars so I would not expect you to follow SOP's in the cockpit.

Actually 28 pilots 7 jets so part timers need not apply. The oldest bird is 4 years old which I fly. We have a DO, CP, Safety Officer, Standards Capt on each of out 4 Different types and 8 mechanics. I am up to 5 weeks vacation in 5 years with 4 hard days a month off. I am in the busy time of year so I fly about 15 hours a month, so again you are wrong in many attributes but you get an A for effort.

I have never seen a so called early departure followed by a late arrival on the same day. I never have that much time playing fbo lounge lizard bitching on my laptop during duty time. I usually laptop bitch from the hotel room or home. Believe it or not some pilots here would rather fly more often! This is not a 91 company to build jet time. The pay is near the top of NBAA averages. Gotta also love the good ole boy system, keeps mostly unwanted personnel from worming themselves in.

The avatar I currently have this month is set up particulary for 91 haters. Are you one of them?

Happy Flying

 

[Buckeye]

I am not a "91 Hater", your preception of certian fascites of aviation is based on hear say and experience. Well mine is as well, granted companys like Proctor and Gamble have great very well run flight departments. But that is not always the norm. My experience with 91 individuals at a previous employment was not stellar, they did not do well in training. Mostly with SOP's, profiles and procedures. Unfortunately that is what I have to base my perception on. They all had varying backgrounds; ages; and flight time some were military pilots at one point. I believe to each his own, but if you are gonna pick on or bash one side.....I will be more than happy to go around as much as you want.

 

[matthewjohn]

OK. To answer some previous questions and to get this thread back on track.......

My dep currently has 5 pilots and are in process of hiring a 6th. I am # 3. We have 2 new AC and one older one we are either going to sell or hire more crew.

A recent change has been the use of contract pilots to give pilots a break for a day. This use is still at the CP discerssion and I'm sure budget will dictate how frequent.

No, we do not have any hard days off beside vacation. With thatsaid , 1 week vacation = 1 week and you will probably fly the friday before and monday after.

I have been with the company for about 3 years and due to attrition have been a CA for over a year. Pay is not on par with what a NJA CA makes 1st year using the 7 on 7 off pay scale. and that is just their base pay also not including "overtime" and a lot of per deim. Our flying (if it can be compared) most reflects their 15 day flex.
http://www.netjets.com/NetJets_Pilots/pdfs/Pilots.pay.benefits.package.pdf
I am not allowed to say what current pay is but it is below the 1st year CA using 7on/off pay. We have no idea when or if we are getting raises (which is another think I dont like about corp depts also your buddy might be making 10k more because he negotiated it).

Going to the bottom of a list for NJA does not bother me too much given the aircraft on order and "proposed" hiring for forseeable future. My company is in textiles and chemicals (even though they say we have done VERY well this year and last) I could see it closing up and using a NJA service before I can see NJA closing down.

Extra duties:
--I am the flight standards CA, so given the recent new aircraft has been overwealming task of developing and revising SOP's (we cant stand FSI's procedures) as well as revising when safety / manufacturer items come out or dictate.
--Crew currency and training
--catering and AC stock
--Computer "tech support" goto guy
--soon to be crew scheduler (if I stay)
Sometimes it is not that much, especially if you keep organized, but it is enough that if you fly 3-4 days you end up only having 1-2 days off a week.

Also another question for you all.
Right now we do not have any kids, so how do your kids handle not knowing when you will be off or when you might be able to attend events of theirs. If your sched is anything of like ours in not known till a day or two prior. Would it be better to be home a day or two more a month not knowing when, or to know when your going to be home so you can plan family time?

Thanks for all the input!

 

[johnsonrod]

I'd go to NJA. You can get a schedule, you will fly very nice airplanes, you get competitive pay and a choice of 100 domiciles. Plus, Warren Buffet owns your company (you get some job security). It's difficult to beat that package...

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Have you even applied to NJ? Its a lot different to say, "I've been offered a job, should I leave my present company." There are going to be thousands of airline pilots with more experience than you applying to NJ in the next few months and you might not be offered a position. Start by applying, receiving a job offer, and going from that point. Right now it is shooting in the dark. You have what sounds like a very standard corporate job with some stability and some seniority protection, a small flight department where you know everyone, have some responsibility, etc. Really want to give that up to pull gear for 5 years for a different Captain every week, if you get in? From your profile it looks like you flew for a regional so you remember what thats like. Different pilots every sequence, slave to the pager, etc. The grass may be greener, but that could be because of all the crap. Good luck!

 

[matthewjohn]

Lets just say I have a decision to make! I have no problem "swinging gear" for that time or longer if need be. And I think you mean you would not be a slave to a pager for NJA, because I definitly am now for 91. I remember what the airline was like and beside crappy pay and non reving to work, it was a good job.

 

[Rook]

The grass may be greener, but that could be because of all the crap.

Brilliant! I need to frame this and hang it up in my living room. Good post Hugh.