United Family Unity Rally in California--the big rat

[SaturnPilot]

How long should we have tried to work with them? How long before we do what is best for us? The lawsuit was a last resort....Everyone of the RJDC leaders held ALPA positions at one time.....ALPA is a bloated burocracy that is slow to act....Mainline pilots will never use one ounce of leverage for another group...they won't even use leverage for their own when it comes to senior vs. junior issues....You are being idealistic....Reality suggests otherwise......

ok, good luck with your strategy then.

Which company do you work for? Which airlines have a good relationship now between managment and ALPA?

why do you care where I work?
good relationship...expressjet

 

[JoeMerchant]

going around in circles here...Joe, is there anything to prevent ALPA from dealing with domestic and foreign issues at the same time? If no, then why ignore open skies and let it happen? There is absolutely no reason what-so-ever to simply not object to this. You say later in this post you want ALPA to object to MPL...it appears they could do that and deal with domestic issues at the same time.

ALPA isn't dealing with the domestic issue.....That is the point....If my job is taken next year by a fellow ALPA pilot....why should I care if an Indian takes there job in 8 years?

The ALPA cheerleaders are using cabotage as a way of diverting attention away from today's failures.....We are competing with each other for jobs...who cares if more join the fray......

MDA was a creation made by USAir pilots. Compass was a creation made by NW pilots. Their being ALPA or USAPA would make no difference in their desire to create MDA and Compass.

But they were both created by ALPA and they both lowered the bar and created more competition...yet you want to ignore the ALPA created downward pressure and divert our attention to possible issues years down the road....Deal with the union created problems today....then we can talk about moving together tomarrow....

I believe ALPA has come out against the MPL. Did you not see the large article in the magazine about it? The entire BOD was briefed on it in 2006. I think they are very aware of it and are not in favor of it.

WRONG...ALPA believes MPL is going to happen anyway so they want to have input in how it is implemented....The current requirements are too low....Why is ALPA not opposing MPL?

ALPA backs Democrats and Republicans. They are the only union to do so to such a great degree. They support only those who support pilot related issues. I fear this thread will go on forever if we start to blame the situation of our industry on one party.

A beer says ALPA endorses Obama....Not only will that alienate many members....many of Obama's policies will harm our industry...

 

[SaturnPilot]

ALPA isn't dealing with the domestic issue.....That is the point....If my job is taken next year by a fellow ALPA pilot....why should I care if an Indian takes there job in 8 years?

The ALPA cheerleaders are using cabotage as a way of diverting attention away from today's failures.....We are competing with each other for jobs...who cares if more join the fray......



But they were both created by ALPA and they both lowered the bar and created more competition...yet you want to ignore the ALPA created downward pressure and divert our attention to possible issues years down the road....Deal with the union created problems today....then we can talk about moving together tomarrow....

Joe, if ALPA is not dealing with domestic issues today, as you put it, then ignoring open skies is not going to force them to deal with domestic issues. The idea that dealing with open skies is a "diversion" to dealing with the RJDC is ridiculous! If you want ALPA to tunnel vision simply on your issue and your issue alone, then why do you mention anything about MPL? I thought you wanted only to deal with seniority issues in the US and nothing else.

WRONG...ALPA believes MPL is going to happen anyway so they want to have input in how it is implemented....The current requirements are too low....Why is ALPA not opposing MPL?

I don't know Joe, I don't work at National. Try emailing one of the national officers and I'm sure they will tell you why their stance is what it is on MPL.

A beer says ALPA endorses Obama....Not only will that alienate many members....many of Obama's policies will harm our industry...

Ok, ALPA may endorse Obama...they may also remain neutral. The EC will have to think very hard about what to do as an endorsement probably will alienate many members as it did in '04. They could have just as easily endorsed McCain, even though he's a republican, if he supported ALPA issues. But, he doesn't.

 

[SaturnPilot]

double post...

 

[Flybywire44]

In a recent Alpa "FastRead Newsflash" email dated 6/16/08 there is a picture of union members standing around a big rat with bags of money. I am embarrassed to be a part of a union that would do that. Are we serious? We are represented by a union that is starting to ask for more money, but can scrape up the money to rent/buy this thing?

Can you imagine management doing stuff like this? Perhaps they would get lots of blow up people with pitch forks and lanterns to represent the mob mentality.

If we want to be taken seriously...oh forget it.

Jonathan Shelton--ASA

ALPA would be better off asking Carl Ihcan to blog or write features of corporate greed and airline mismanagement.

Ihcan seems to takes a strong interest in overcompensated and mismanaged companies....

http://www.icahnreport.com/

 

[PCL_128]

A beer says ALPA endorses Obama....

I would certainly hope so.

I'm just glad that SaturnPilot is here to argue with you now. Takes some of the pressure off of me.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA would be better off asking Carl Ihcan to blog or write features of corporate greed and airline mismanagement.

Ihcan seems to takes a strong interest in overcompensated and mismanaged companies....

http://www.icahnreport.com/

Are you kidding? You really think Icahn cares about these things? It's a sham. Ever seen "Wall Street?" Icahn is the real life version of Gordon Gecko. He puts up this facade of fighting corporate greed so he can get the shareholders on his side and take over companies just to satisfy his own ego and greed. Icahn is a hustler and a scumbag.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

ALPA had a publishing facility in Dulles they shut it down. ALPA has recently furloughed employees and rejected a new contract for Unit II.

Is that enough cost cutting?

I'd gladly sacrifice my bi-monthly magazine if it meant the money would fund more critical line items.

A dazzling 40 page color magazine (on nice heavy paper I might add) + postage. I appreciate the effort, but it's 2008; if you're that interested you'll go to the website. Even newspapers are figuring this out.

Air Line Publishing Association? Let's start putting the money where it counts.

 

[PCL_128]

The fact is, most members at least thumb through that fancy magazine while flying, so it keeps people somewhat informed. By contrast, most members never once visit the national website. Hell, they don't even know what their user ID and password are to login. Getting rid of the magazine would be a mistake.

 

[Speedtape]

It's over $25 a month for me......

It's being taken from the bottom tier with this so-called "brotherhood".....Since most of you strong ALPA cheerleaders are Obama left wingers.....shouldn't the shortfall come from the "rich" members.....That's how you want the income taxes to be...Why is it different with union dues?

This is only the beginning....ALPA is about to lose more members....Furloughs, ASTAR, and Atlas/Polar...Then they will come for more dues....

It would be one thing if ALPA had earned the dues increase....but cleary they haven't....

Has the ALPA President taken a paycut this year....or is ALPA looking to poor regional FOs instead?

Leadership...I don't see any....

How much of our dues is going for your $650,000 settlement that got you a milk toast remedy? Why did you lay down your gauntlet for such a weak remedy, if you believed in your cause?

By the way, as far as the disparate method of assessing dues on 401k contributuions, and as far as your campaign to insure "Duty of Fair Representation," is it fair for you to pay less dues by the present method and expect "Duty of Fair Representation?" That seems to be inconsistent with your logic!

Are you leading the charge for decertification? So if you are successful, what would be your plan for protecting our contract? IF ALPA fails, what standard would protect the non-union carriers like Skywest and for that matter ASA?

The absence of ALPA, warts and all, would make us all sheep--including those good non-union companies that you like to use as flag bearers! As they said to the Colonists in the events leading up to the American Revolution, regarding their fear to stand up to the British, "Make yourselves sheep, and surely, you will be devoured by the Wolves!"

Mr. Merchant, if ALPA is gone, how will you protect us from the Wolves? Show us some of your good leadership, Mr. former Alpa cheerleader! What's the plan--to lead us off the cliff?

Without ALPA, like it or not, You might have to worry about alot more than your $25!

 

[CallmeJB]

Before everyone gets all upset about this PROPOSED dues change, have you taken the time to figure out how much money you are talking about here? The HIGHEST change in any amount of dues I have heard so far is a whopping $11 a month. Now, I'm not saying $11 a month is not important, but I don't think it's anything to suggest changing unions for.

You say that ALPA lost expenses with USAir. That is true, however, every major airline at ALPA puts in more dues than they receive in services. This is due to the fact that the regional airlines, with the lower pay, do not generate enough dues revenue to function on their own. Therefore the regional MECs are subsidized in a way by the majors. That is why losing USAir hurts so much, because a lot of their money went to the unionized regional feed.

As Rez already pointed out, ALPA already has taken numerous cuts. Numerous staff members have been furloughed, the remaining can't get a raise. I can't imagine describing the ALPA building in Herndon as "premium office space".

Whose fault is this?

 

[labbats]

The fact is, most members at least thumb through that fancy magazine while flying, so it keeps people somewhat informed. By contrast, most members never once visit the national website. Hell, they don't even know what their user ID and password are to login. Getting rid of the magazine would be a mistake.

I couldn't disagree more. That magazine is an albatross around the necks of ALPA and instead of looking to do more conference calls and less hotel rooms and per diems they come after our 401k contributions?!

I say keep it coming ALPA because by chasing our last nickel and showing the opposite of backbone you've created your own demise. Good riddance.

 

[Deadalus]

What? You mean that rat is supposed to represent the airline's CEO? Shoot, I thought that thing was Pratter........the scumbag.

 

[Speedtape]

I couldn't disagree more. That magazine is an albatross around the necks of ALPA and instead of looking to do more conference calls and less hotel rooms and per diems they come after our 401k contributions?!

I say keep it coming ALPA because by chasing our last nickel and showing the opposite of backbone you've created your own demise. Good riddance.

Your 401k contributions are paid with Gross wages! If you are represented by ALPA, ALPA negotiated your wages as a part of your pilot working agreement. Gross Wages should be subject to dues. Many pilots at other carriers pay dues on the Gross Wages that pay for the 401k. Pilots at your own airline, that do not participate in your 401K, pay dues on their Gross Wages. Why shouldn't you?

 

[tico]

Maybe Decertifying alpa at all the regionals would be a good thing......Dont whine when you are flying a 1900 for 20,000 a year...."Happiness is the last CRJ/ERJ on the way to a desert grave" silly boy

Less than ten percent of the U.S. workforce is unionized and somehow they make it. I will defend myself the same way they do. Professional mistakes are made throughout other industries and not everyone is fired. It is not in the best interest of a company to do that.

Jonathan Shelton--ASA

 

[BUDDHA145]

you guys know if is this one...

http://www.chicagoclout.com/weblog/archives/Big Rat in Bridgeport.jpg

 

[SaturnPilot]

Whose fault is this?

uh, it's just reality. Are you asking who's to blame for the difference in compensation at the regional vs. mainline level?

 

[PCL_128]

you guys know if is this one...

http://www.chicagoclout.com/weblog/archives/Big Rat in Bridgeport.jpg

Different rat. ALPA owns their own inflatable rat, but it looks somewhat similar. The ALPA rat is holding big bags of money, wearing a suit, and smoking a cigar. Obviously a reference to uncontrolled management greed.

 

[tomgoodman]

A slander!

Different rat. ALPA owns their own inflatable rat, but it looks somewhat similar. The ALPA rat is holding big bags of money, wearing a suit, and smoking a cigar. Obviously a reference to uncontrolled management greed.

Stand by for a lawsuit from the National Committee for Fairness to Rodents. They're really cheesed off about this. :angryfire

 

[TurboAWD]

. Professional mistakes are made throughout other industries and not everyone is fired. It is not in the best interest of a company to do that.

If you think this industry is similar to other industries...you need to wake up.

By the way- Airlines often do things that are not in their best interest.

Turbo

 

[JoeMerchant]

How much of our dues is going for your $650,000 settlement that got you a milk toast remedy? Why did you lay down your gauntlet for such a weak remedy, if you believed in your cause?

Actually I estimate ALPA spent over 3.5 million total on the lawsuit....It is a weak remedy and I fully expect ALPA to not honor it....There will be more lawsuits as the different factions within this loose "association" spar with each other.....

By the way, as far as the disparate method of assessing dues on 401k contributuions, and as far as your campaign to insure "Duty of Fair Representation," is it fair for you to pay less dues by the present method and expect "Duty of Fair Representation?" That seems to be inconsistent with your logic!

The 401k exemption was started when us regional folks didn't have pension plans like the big boys....We subsidized their pensions with our low pay...Exempting the 401k money was the least ALPA could do for the "working class" members of ALPA...Fact remains....it is a dues increase now for a less than impressive job....

Are you leading the charge for decertification? So if you are successful, what would be your plan for protecting our contract? IF ALPA fails, what standard would protect the non-union carriers like Skywest and for that matter ASA?

No I'm not....in fact I'm on the fence about decertification....We always have the DFR lawsuit option if we remain in ALPA....We lose that if we leave....Heck of a union where we have to rely on DFR lawsuits to defend our interests....The leader is a former MEC member....many ALPA cheerleaders are now talking about it....Amazing how stupid this move was by ALPA....

The absence of ALPA, warts and all, would make us all sheep--including those good non-union companies that you like to use as flag bearers! As they said to the Colonists in the events leading up to the American Revolution, regarding their fear to stand up to the British, "Make yourselves sheep, and surely, you will be devoured by the Wolves!"

Mr. Merchant, if ALPA is gone, how will you protect us from the Wolves? Show us some of your good leadership, Mr. former Alpa cheerleader! What's the plan--to lead us off the cliff?

Without ALPA, like it or not, You might have to worry about alot more than your $25!

Actually I don't realy believe things would be much different without ALPA....ALPA doesn't have nearly the pull some would believe it does....This combined with the fact that Skywest is smart and actually believes in a good relationship with it's employees....Things wouldn't really change that much...

Setting that aside...nobody is advocating ditching ALPA for going non-union....An inhouse union or other option is what is being looked into.....You have a better chance of getting the Skywest pilots on board without ALPA....

ALPA is dieing a slow death...Even the senior member of the ASA MEC told me it would be smart to have a plan B as there is a good chance ALPA doesn't survive the current turmoil.....

Let's put some pressure on ALPA and prepare to go our own way....Maybe that will be the pressure ALPA needs to get it's act together.......

ALPA is about to lose another couple thousand members (ASTAR, UAL, CAL, Atlas/Polar, Spirit)....How much are the dues going to increase then?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Different rat. ALPA owns their own inflatable rat, but it looks somewhat similar. The ALPA rat is holding big bags of money, wearing a suit, and smoking a cigar. Obviously a reference to uncontrolled management greed.

....or a reference to an ALPA national officer.....

 

[PCL_128]

The leader is a former MEC member....

Please tell me it isn't Pennekamp.

 

[ex j-41]

Mesa is a great example of how poor management - employee relations will eventually lead to a failing company. Oh i am sure Greed (one of the 7 deadly sins) plays a huge role with Johny.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Setting that aside...nobody is advocating ditching ALPA for going non-union....An inhouse union or other option is what is being looked into.....You have a better chance of getting the Skywest pilots on board without ALPA....

ALPA is dieing a slow death...Even the senior member of the ASA MEC told me it would be smart to have a plan B as there is a good chance ALPA doesn't survive the current turmoil.....

Let's put some pressure on ALPA and prepare to go our own way....Maybe that will be the pressure ALPA needs to get it's act together.......

ALPA is about to lose another couple thousand members (ASTAR, UAL, CAL, Atlas/Polar, Spirit)....How much are the dues going to increase then?

I would caution anyone before they buy into this "go independent" idea. Joe wants an independent union at Skywest and ASA, but refuses to face the reality that said union would not make enough money to survive. A union the size of ASA takes in roughly a quarter million per year in dues revenue. One year of contract negotiations alone costs upward of a half million. How long was the last round of negotiations at ASA??? Keep in mind that the management team that chose to keep the pilots in such a long period of negotiations is the management team that Joe trusts to keep his quality of life the same without ALPA. Joe's only answer to this problem is that there would have to be some "belt tightening". Number-wise, the belt tightening would have to go so far as having a negotiating committee that flies the line full time (a great idea if you want a horrible contract), little to no legal support for negotiations or to fight grievances (which cost a great deal), little to no financial analysis of your company and industry for negotiations, no medical support, dues upwards of 3%-4%, etc...the list goes on.

Does ALPA have issues? Yes, but uneducated hatred of ALPA cannot be the only factor in what amounts to such a large career decision. If there was a better option than ALPA, I personally would vote for it, but going independent at the regional level is simply asking for failure.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I would caution anyone before they buy into this "go independent" idea. Joe wants an independent union at Skywest and ASA, but refuses to face the reality that said union would not make enough money to survive.

I would caution you about putting words in my mouth.....I am on the fence about splitting off as I do like the ability to sue for DFR if ALPA does something that negatively affects our career...

I also want a union that can deliver a single list at Skywest Inc....ALPA won't do that....A single list on this property trumps ALPA membership....

Doesn't matter how much money ALPA provides if your flying is outsourced.....Something ALPA has never understood.....

A union the size of ASA takes in roughly a quarter million per year in dues revenue. One year of contract negotiations alone costs upward of a half million. How long was the last round of negotiations at ASA??? Keep in mind that the management team that chose to keep the pilots in such a long period of negotiations is the management team that Joe trusts to keep his quality of life the same without ALPA. Joe's only answer to this problem is that there would have to be some "belt tightening". Number-wise, the belt tightening would have to go so far as having a negotiating committee that flies the line full time (a great idea if you want a horrible contract), little to no legal support for negotiations or to fight grievances (which cost a great deal), little to no financial analysis of your company and industry for negotiations, no medical support, dues upwards of 3%-4%, etc...the list goes on.

Where to start....

1. Actually it was our side that caused negotiations to drag out so long...We could have had a deal much sooner but expectations were not managed....In 2002 when we started we could have taken the CMR rates and moved on....but some had grander visions....As a member of the CSC at the time I voiced my opinion that it was a mistake...

2. When I was on the CNC in 1998, I flew about 35 hours a month in addition to negotiating...It can be done....But now full time ALPA leave has become more popular....Pilots would be amazed at how much full time ALPA leave there is now....

3. ALPA isn't going to do squat for my "QOL" if my job is replaced...possibly by another ALPA member...Give it a rest....I am interested in job security first and foremost....If my QOL sucks, I will leave....ALPA can't protect a regional job.....

Does ALPA have issues? Yes, but uneducated hatred of ALPA cannot be the only factor in what amounts to such a large career decision. If there was a better option than ALPA, I personally would vote for it, but going independent at the regional level is simply asking for failure.

I am not "uneducated" about the issues or ALPA....I suspect I was in Herndon working as an ALPA volunteer long before you soloed.....I also don't "hate" ALPA....I just don't believe it is effective nor do I believe it has my best interests in mind....

ALPA has already failed all of us...Some of you just don't realize it yet....

 

[SaturnPilot]

I also want a union that can deliver a single list at Skywest Inc....ALPA won't do that....A single list on this property trumps ALPA membership....

ALPA can certainly do that.

Doesn't matter how much money ALPA provides if your flying is outsourced.....Something ALPA has never understood.....

an independent union will not solve this problem.

2. When I was on the CNC in 1998, I flew about 35 hours a month in addition to negotiating...It can be done....But now full time ALPA leave has become more popular....Pilots would be amazed at how much full time ALPA leave there is now....

flying during negotiations can certainly be done depending on how quick negotiations are moving. Even being on leave for only half of a month will still be too much cost for an independent regional union, however.

3. ALPA isn't going to do squat for my "QOL" if my job is replaced...possibly by another ALPA member...Give it a rest....I am interested in job security first and foremost....If my QOL sucks, I will leave....ALPA can't protect a regional job.....

another issue not solved by an independent union.

I am not "uneducated" about the issues or ALPA....I suspect I was in Herndon working as an ALPA volunteer long before you soloed.....I also don't "hate" ALPA....I just don't believe it is effective nor do I believe it has my best interests in mind....

I never called YOU uneducated, nor did I say YOU hated ALPA. The fact is many people cast career votes based on uneducated emotions regarding ALPA. I was referencing those people who vote emotionally in my post.

Thanks for volunteering before I soloed even though you have no idea how old I am or how long I have been flying. You can make assumptions regarding my flying experience as though that is the issue at hand here, or you can attempt to explain how your independent union will be able to function financially. Looking at the numbers, I don't see how it's possible.