United Family Unity Rally in California--the big rat

[JoeMerchant]

I certainly don't want to make that problem any worse by allowing Mexicana to compete with my job flying JFK-MIA. I think most of the mainline pilots would want a system that would not effect someone in your position. Most of the talk currently going on is for mainline pilots to get first rights on left seat positions created by any increase in flying at a regional due to a reduction in mainline flying.

Most foreign companies pay more than many ALPA regionals....In addition they can't staff their airlines with their own folks...My job is threatened by US ALPA members willing to undercut me and/or bump me out of my seat.....Strawman argument to deflect criticism of ALPA....

so if JetBlue got the max hours per day raised to 10, you don't think the regionals would try to make it so you could fly 10 hours in a 18 hour duty day and do 8 landings? It's just one more step in a direction we don't need to go.

First they were trying to get an exemption for their transcons.....The other legacies opposed that....I doubt the exemption would extend to regional legs.....

That said...I don't really care how many hours I fly....Sitting around at the airport is more fatiguing and rest at the hotel is more important.....What is so magical about 8 hours of flying.....The important issues are duty time and rest....Sitting in the cockpit isn't the big issue....Focus on the big issues....

 

[JoeMerchant]

ok, would you rather work at Expressjet or Skywest? We could have that argument all day. I did answer your question. I have no desire to work for either Skywest or Mesa. If I did work for Skywest or Mesa, I sure as hell would want ALPA on property though.

No....you dodged the question...I will answer yours....

I would rather work at Skywest than at Expressjet....Now do you want to try again?

Would you rather work at Skywest or Mesa? I answered your question....Pick one! Quit being an ALPA cheerleader for just this one question.....

 

[SaturnPilot]

Can you clarify that....What position on our side is holding up the progress? Please specify what "ego" on our side...

There are those at regionals who wish to be integrated into lists at the majors to the left seat of a 757 as though we're talking about a merger. There are those who when majors are furloughing have no other response other than "we'll hire you back at the bottom if you relax your scope more allowing us to grow", etc, etc. These types of positions hold zero chance of success and serve nothing other than to piss people off.

There is only "ALPA"....ALPA signs agreements that oppose our growth....We can stay and file DFR lawsuits or we can leave....I'm OK with either at this point....But we aren't going to get along in this environment....

no, that's not true. In your case there is only Delta pilots and ASA pilots. You being non-ALPA will not change one single ounce of Delta pilots resolve to keep as much of their scope as possible. In fact, if you leave ALPA, it will probably worsen relations between the two groups. Why do you want more higher paying Delta jobs to be outsourced to ASA? It is the same job, just lower paying. I don't understand why you feel your company needs to grow more at Delta's expense.

As far as the numbers...There would have to be some belt tightening in addition to the fact that I think that we could eventually get the other "little folks" on board....ie CMR, EGL, PDT, etc....The numbers would even out in the long run.....Given the current situation, I expect the ALPA dues to go up as the ALPA membership continues to decline with ASTAR, Atlas, Polar, and furloughs....

a union of regionals would certainly need a lot of belt tightening...belt tightening in areas like less experienced and fewer legal services, little or no economic analysis of your company during negotiations...I don't even know how negotiations would work. An independent regional MEC your size would take in less than a half a million dollars in dues revenue a year. Your negotiating committee alone would burn through that in flight pay loss, legal fees, etc. Realistically, I don't see any way of that working.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Most foreign companies pay more than many ALPA regionals....In addition they can't staff their airlines with their own folks...My job is threatened by US ALPA members willing to undercut me and/or bump me out of my seat.....Strawman argument to deflect criticism of ALPA....

Joe, I agree with you that our job security over here is "lacking", to put it nicely, but to act as though open skies is not a threat is ignoring yet another freight train heading for our profession.

First they were trying to get an exemption for their transcons.....The other legacies opposed that....I doubt the exemption would extend to regional legs.....

That said...I don't really care how many hours I fly....Sitting around at the airport is more fatiguing and rest at the hotel is more important.....What is so magical about 8 hours of flying.....The important issues are duty time and rest....Sitting in the cockpit isn't the big issue....Focus on the big issues....

well, you must have more energy than a lot of us, because 14-16 hours of duty flying 8 hours with 6 legs can get fatiguing enough without adding more legs/hours/duty onto it

 

[SaturnPilot]

No....you dodged the question...I will answer yours....

I would rather work at Skywest than at Expressjet....Now do you want to try again?

Would you rather work at Skywest or Mesa? I answered your question....Pick one! Quit being an ALPA cheerleader for just this one question.....

I'm not an ALPA cheerleader. I simply look at what options are in front of me and I choose the best option after carefully considering the facts. Right now there are many things I wish ALPA would do differently, but I see no viable better alternative to being an ALPA member at my current job. Losing ALPA where I work would not make my life any better what-so-ever...it would most certainly turn worse.

You've got a lot of anger against ALPA because of the situation between Delta pilots and ASA pilots. That will NOT change no matter what union you or the Delta pilots belong to. They personally want to keep all of their flying and you personally want to make your company grow. Try to get rid of ALPA if you want, but that won't change the situation over there one bit.

I don't want to work at Skywest or Mesa. If for some odd reason those were the only two choices on the planet I had, I guess I would choose Skywest and then do everything I can to convince my coworkers to get ALPA on the property.

 

[Metro752]

Welcome to the real world.

 

[JoeMerchant]

There are those at regionals who wish to be integrated into lists at the majors to the left seat of a 757 as though we're talking about a merger. There are those who when majors are furloughing have no other response other than "we'll hire you back at the bottom if you relax your scope more allowing us to grow", etc, etc. These types of positions hold zero chance of success and serve nothing other than to piss people off.

That is an urban legend....We don't want left seat positions on the 757 unless the mainline folks want our left seats.....There is a double standard when it comes to the theory of integrating regional and mainline lists.....The mainline folks think a mainline newhire should be able to bump a 20 year regional pilot out of their seat/schedule....If they think that....then why shouldn't I think the same?

Now a more resonable person would come up with something more fair....Do you think a mainline newhire should be able to bump someone at the regional?

 

[SaturnPilot]

That is an urban legend....We don't want left seat positions on the 757 unless the mainline folks want our left seats.....There is a double standard when it comes to the theory of integrating regional and mainline lists.....The mainline folks think a mainline newhire should be able to bump a 20 year regional pilot out of their seat/schedule....If they think that....then why shouldn't I think the same?

Now a more resonable person would come up with something more fair....Do you think a mainline newhire should be able to bump someone at the regional?

no, I don't. And I think a large amount of people aren't asking for that. Most people I have heard of want left seat jobs only in positions that are created through growth at a regional at the expense of shrinking at a major. I think that is a reasonable position. I also think it is reasonable to have a flow through agreement like the one in place at Compass and Mesaba where you can elect to flow up to NW if you want, but you are subject to being bumped back if you choose that path. If you choose not to flow up, you cannot be bumped back. That is an example of a reasonable agreement made by both sides of the issue. It's at least a step in the right direction giving us all more options.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe, I agree with you that our job security over here is "lacking", to put it nicely, but to act as though open skies is not a threat is ignoring yet another freight train heading for our profession.

We can't deal with domestic ALPA job security...but we can deal with a possible future issue of "open skies"? If we can't deal with the domestic job
security issue amongst fellow ALPA members....what makes you think we can deal with a more complex issue? I think you folks are trying to divert attention away from ALPA's failures.....

well, you must have more energy than a lot of us, because 14-16 hours of duty flying 8 hours with 6 legs can get fatiguing enough without adding more legs/hours/duty onto it

The two fatiguing items for me are duty time and rest....I wan't to fly as much as possible and have has many days off as possible.....

 

[SaturnPilot]

We can't deal with domestic ALPA job security...but we can deal with a possible future issue of "open skies"? If we can't deal with the domestic job
security issue amongst fellow ALPA members....what makes you think we can deal with a more complex issue? I think you folks are trying to divert attention away from ALPA's failures.....

in wanting to deal with open skies, I am diverting attention away from ALPA's failures, eh? Joe, this isn't a group of issues that must be dealt with sequentially. To sit back and let open skies happen while ALPA ignores it completely would be negligent and idiotic. Whatever needs to be done regarding domestic job security can easily be done at the same time as fighting open skies. I fear the domestic issue will require a stronger leader in the president's office, however...that's just my personal opinion.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm not an ALPA cheerleader. I simply look at what options are in front of me and I choose the best option after carefully considering the facts. Right now there are many things I wish ALPA would do differently, but I see no viable better alternative to being an ALPA member at my current job. Losing ALPA where I work would not make my life any better what-so-ever...it would most certainly turn worse.

Where do you work? Maybe putting pressure on ALPA will change the behavior of ALPA.....self help is effective isn't it? Can't it be used against the union?

You've got a lot of anger against ALPA because of the situation between Delta pilots and ASA pilots. That will NOT change no matter what union you or the Delta pilots belong to. They personally want to keep all of their flying and you personally want to make your company grow. Try to get rid of ALPA if you want, but that won't change the situation over there one bit.

I don't have "anger" against ALPA....I just think they are ineffective and inept...especially when dealing with scope.....

That being said...I am not opposed to staying in ALPA....I think the DFR hammer is effective and that only works if we stay in ALPA....In fact if we keep using the DFR hammer I suspect it will be DAL that leaves ALPA....ALPA is going to have to figure a way to represent everyone in the same brand....If they don't there will be trouble...

I don't want to work at Skywest or Mesa. If for some odd reason those were the only two choices on the planet I had, I guess I would choose Skywest and then do everything I can to convince my coworkers to get ALPA on the property.

Was that so hard to answer the question? So you admit that a good company trumps ALPA membership....now maybe you can understand those of us who work for Skywest Inc.....ASA used to be a terrible place to work....even with ALPA.....Skywest has made improvements.....

Skywest is a good company.....ALPA is a marginal union that isn't doing so well and definately isn't dictating how things should be done.....At this point I will take Jerry over ALPA....

We don't have a true national "union"....We have a very loose association of independant contractors that are fighting amongst themselves.....Solve that and many of us will reconsider our position.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

in wanting to deal with open skies, I am diverting attention away from ALPA's failures, eh? Joe, this isn't a group of issues that must be dealt with sequentially. To sit back and let open skies happen while ALPA ignores it completely would be negligent and idiotic. Whatever needs to be done regarding domestic job security can easily be done at the same time as fighting open skies. I fear the domestic issue will require a stronger leader in the president's office, however...that's just my personal opinion.

It doesn't matter who the President of ALPA is....The mainline folks won't use the negotiating capital required to enact brand scope....Babbitt and DW couldn't do it.....and neither will Prater....The mainline folks aren't going to do it and they run ALPA....

I have a 5 year horizon...I can retire from this industry in 5 years....Deal with the immediate issues than we can talk about potential future issues which may or may not be an issue...

Don't brief me on the approach before we deal with the engine failure first......

 

[SaturnPilot]

Where do you work? Maybe putting pressure on ALPA will change the behavior of ALPA.....self help is effective isn't it? Can't it be used against the union?



I don't have "anger" against ALPA....I just think they are ineffective and inept...especially when dealing with scope.....

That being said...I am not opposed to staying in ALPA....I think the DFR hammer is effective and that only works if we stay in ALPA....In fact if we keep using the DFR hammer I suspect it will be DAL that leaves ALPA....ALPA is going to have to figure a way to represent everyone in the same brand....If they don't there will be trouble...

Joe, simply speaking from a human nature standpoint, suing ALPA via DFR constantly is not the way to get others on board with your "argument". When you sue ALPA for issues like the RJDC had, the simple fact is that it pisses people off (as in ordinary line pilots who's dues money is being spent on what they see as a ridiculous suit). Those people will then increase their resolve against you and the situation worsens. Actions like these bring emotions into career decisions. Look at USAir right now. Albeit unlikely, a rational and workable solution could come across both sides of their group right now, but there is so much emotion involved over how people have acted that each side will want to see the other "punished".

Was that so hard to answer the question? So you admit that a good company trumps ALPA membership....now maybe you can understand those of us who work for Skywest Inc.....ASA used to be a terrible place to work....even with ALPA.....Skywest has made improvements.....

No, I did not in any way admit that a good company trumps ALPA membership. This is why I didn't want to answer your ridiculous question. I do not want to work at either Skywest or Mesa. I want to work for a good company and have the protection of ALPA. I like knowing that if my "good company" were to have a bad day and fire me for unjust reasons, I have recourse. I like knowing that if I were flying with someone who missed a crossing restriction while I was in the lavatory, I have the protection of an ASAP program. I like knowing that I have a union fighting for me on capital hill. That's what I want in a company. Some people are perfectly happy at Skywest and will live great carriers with no problems, and that's great. I'm simply not applying there.

Skywest is a good company.....ALPA is a marginal union that isn't doing so well and definately isn't dictating how things should be done.....At this point I will take Jerry over ALPA....

Then good luck in your decertification campaign. USAPA is an independent union, do you approve of their actions?

We don't have a true national "union"....We have a very loose association of independant contractors that are fighting amongst themselves.....Solve that and many of us will reconsider our position.....

once again, dumping ALPA will do nothing to solve this problem. What you are wishing for is a national union that exerts its will on pilot groups regardless of their local leadership's wishes. Are you willing to cede control of ASA's decisions to a national body? That body may make a decision that your job is to be furlough fodder for Delta. Are you sure that's what you want?

 

[SaturnPilot]

It doesn't matter who the President of ALPA is....The mainline folks won't use the negotiating capital required to enact brand scope....Babbitt and DW couldn't do it.....and neither will Prater....The mainline folks aren't going to do it and they run ALPA....

I have a 5 year horizon...I can retire from this industry in 5 years....Deal with the immediate issues than we can talk about potential future issues which may or may not be an issue...

Don't brief me on the approach before we deal with the engine failure first......

well, I've got a lot more than 5 years left in this industry and I don't feel like spending it watching all of the US carriers go out of business. Here's McCain's view on cabotage:
John McCain: I believe that the U.S. policy on cabotage should be relaxed. Foreign airlines could provide much needed competition on domestic airline routes, which would result in lower fares for the benefit of consumers...

does anyone with more than a 3rd grade education think that what this industry needs is more competition and lower fares? That's what we're talking about with open skies. I'm sorry Joe, but this issue is incredibly important

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe, simply speaking from a human nature standpoint, suing ALPA via DFR constantly is not the way to get others on board with your "argument". When you sue ALPA for issues like the RJDC had, the simple fact is that it pisses people off (as in ordinary line pilots who's dues money is being spent on what they see as a ridiculous suit). Those people will then increase their resolve against you and the situation worsens. Actions like these bring emotions into career decisions.

You obviously don't know the entire history behind the RJDC lawsuit....The lawsuit was a last resort to protect the jobs of ASA and CMR pilots....Members of the RJDC leadership first started working with ALPA on the scope issue back in 1995.....If you look at the 1995 ALPA scope report....you will find Dan Ford's name.... How long is one expected to work within the system before one resorts to legal remedies to protect one's interests?

No, I did not in any way admit that a good company trumps ALPA membership. This is why I didn't want to answer your ridiculous question. I do not want to work at either Skywest or Mesa. I want to work for a good company and have the protection of ALPA.

But you admit that if given one or the other it is better to work for a good company....What if joining ALPA ruins the good working environment between pilots and management?

Who do you work for?

 

[JoeMerchant]

well, I've got a lot more than 5 years left in this industry and I don't feel like spending it watching all of the US carriers go out of business. Here's McCain's view on cabotage:
John McCain: I believe that the U.S. policy on cabotage should be relaxed. Foreign airlines could provide much needed competition on domestic airline routes, which would result in lower fares for the benefit of consumers...

I have more than 5 years also....but in 2000 I made the decision that things were changing in this industry and prepared accordingly.....I hope to go more than 5 years....but I don't have to....

Foreign ownership doesn't scare me as much as losing my job or status to fellow ALPA members.....There are mainline pilots who want my seat when they get furloughed and there are both mainline and regional pilots who are underbidding my current pay....with the signature of ALPA....Deal with that issue first....

does anyone with more than a 3rd grade education think that what this industry needs is more competition and lower fares? That's what we're talking about with open skies. I'm sorry Joe, but this issue is incredibly important

I have more than a 3rd grade education....and I realize that ALPA not only has totally botched the issue of competition...they have made it worse with MidAtlantic and Compass agreements.....ALPA hasn't even come out against the MPL....

Lower fares? ALPA backs Democrats who want lower fares...higher oil....more rail....and let's not forget where deregulation came from....Jimmy Carter....

 

[Freeze_gopher]

Unions do not control the business practices of airlines, or any other company for that matter. Who does what flying for whom is between companies, so to suggest that ALPA pilots are trying to take your job is ridiculous. You can't begrudge a pilot group for the expansion of their airline. A good company does trump a union, however one exists because of the lack of the other. How many SkyWest pilots didn't vote for representation because they believed that further growth (for Southwest, American, Continental) was contingent on the lack of a Union? How many SkyWest pilots have had to retain counsel at their own expense to defend issues that were work related?

 

[SaturnPilot]

You obviously don't know the entire history behind the RJDC lawsuit....The lawsuit was a last resort to protect the jobs of ASA and CMR pilots....Members of the RJDC leadership first started working with ALPA on the scope issue back in 1995.....If you look at the 1995 ALPA scope report....you will find Dan Ford's name.... How long is one expected to work within the system before one resorts to legal remedies to protect one's interests?

no, I know the history behind the RJDC. I'm just stating that actions such as a rjdc lawsuit by human nature make a lot of mainline pilots unwilling to use one ounce of leverage in your benefit.

But you admit that if given one or the other it is better to work for a good company....What if joining ALPA ruins the good working environment between pilots and management?

no, I did not say I would choose a better company over an ALPA company for those reasons. What I did say is I wish to work at neither. If simply joining ALPA is enough to ruin a good working environment with management, then I guess you don't really have good management, do you? In that scenario you have management that is only good enough to you to keep a union away. There are plenty of airlines that have good relationships between management and ALPA.\

 

[JoeMerchant]

no, I know the history behind the RJDC. I'm just stating that actions such as a rjdc lawsuit by human nature make a lot of mainline pilots unwilling to use one ounce of leverage in your benefit.

How long should we have tried to work with them? How long before we do what is best for us? The lawsuit was a last resort....Everyone of the RJDC leaders held ALPA positions at one time.....ALPA is a bloated burocracy that is slow to act....Mainline pilots will never use one ounce of leverage for another group...they won't even use leverage for their own when it comes to senior vs. junior issues....You are being idealistic....Reality suggests otherwise......

no, I did not say I would choose a better company over an ALPA company for those reasons. What I did say is I wish to work at neither. If simply joining ALPA is enough to ruin a good working environment with management, then I guess you don't really have good management, do you? In that scenario you have management that is only good enough to you to keep a union away. There are plenty of airlines that have good relationships between management and ALPA.\

Which company do you work for? Which airlines have a good relationship now between managment and ALPA?

 

[SaturnPilot]

I have more than 5 years also....but in 2000 I made the decision that things were changing in this industry and prepared accordingly.....I hope to go more than 5 years....but I don't have to....

Foreign ownership doesn't scare me as much as losing my job or status to fellow ALPA members.....There are mainline pilots who want my seat when they get furloughed and there are both mainline and regional pilots who are underbidding my current pay....with the signature of ALPA....Deal with that issue first....

going around in circles here...Joe, is there anything to prevent ALPA from dealing with domestic and foreign issues at the same time? If no, then why ignore open skies and let it happen? There is absolutely no reason what-so-ever to simply not object to this. You say later in this post you want ALPA to object to MPL...it appears they could do that and deal with domestic issues at the same time.

I have more than a 3rd grade education....and I realize that ALPA not only has totally botched the issue of competition...they have made it worse with MidAtlantic and Compass agreements.....ALPA hasn't even come out against the MPL....

MDA was a creation made by USAir pilots. Compass was a creation made by NW pilots. Their being ALPA or USAPA would make no difference in their desire to create MDA and Compass.

I believe ALPA has come out against the MPL. Did you not see the large article in the magazine about it? The entire BOD was briefed on it in 2006. I think they are very aware of it and are not in favor of it.

Lower fares? ALPA backs Democrats who want lower fares...higher oil....more rail....and let's not forget where deregulation came from....Jimmy Carter....

ALPA backs Democrats and Republicans. They are the only union to do so to such a great degree. They support only those who support pilot related issues. I fear this thread will go on forever if we start to blame the situation of our industry on one party.