United Family Unity Rally in California--the big rat

[JoeMerchant]

I agree that ALPA is currently a "loose confederation of states", in a manner of speaking. To change that would require all of our pilot groups to cede power over their own future to ALPA National. Do you know of a way to make that happen?

Not with the mainline legacy folks in the same union....Maybe it will happen if we can get a union without the legacy "ego".....The legacy folks think they are a higher life form....They are the ones that are preventing a single union....

You have said before that you want Skywest and ASA to have one independent union. How will that union be able to function when it would not even make enough money to sustain any type of contract negotiations, large grievances, a strike, etc?

I want a single list at Skywest Inc.....I also want a union that doesn't oppose my company getting bigger with larger aircraft....Can ALPA do that? If so I am willing to stay....Otherwise it is time to leave....

 

[SaturnPilot]

Honest question Saturn Pilot....Would you rather work at Skywest or Mesa?

can I say neither

Skywest has better management than Mesa, and that along with the fact that Skywest wants to keep ALPA off property, probably factors in to the fact that it's a nicer place to work.

I just don't see how ASA would be better off without ALPA. What do you think will change there?

 

[SaturnPilot]

Has the ALPA President taken a paycut this year....or is ALPA looking to poor regional FOs instead?

Leadership...I don't see any....

I agree Prater should take a paycut if he's asking for more dues money. But, I don't think too many people have been impressed with much of anything he's done.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well out of 8 issues I addressed, you responded to only 3 of them....Here are the responses....

do you honestly think open skies is not a threat?

No I don't....My job is threatened by fellow ALPA pilots in this country....Both mainline and regional....I have mainline pilots trying to take my job when they get bumped back....I have mainline and regional ALPA pilots bidding against me for my flying....Deal with that issue than we can talk about other countries that don't even have enough pilots to cover their own flying....

I think that if you're talking about extending duty time past 16 hours, that's pretty unsafe. Not to mention JetBlue's attempt to raise the max hours per day to 10

Nobody is looking to extend the duty day...Flight hours don't matter to me....If I flew tran-cons....I would rather fly back to the east coast rather than go to the hotel for 9 or 10 hours and come back as a red eye.....Those of us at the regional level do 14 hour days with 8 hours of flying and 6 approaches/landings.... 9 hours of flying with 2 landings in that same 14 hours would be easier...

 

[SaturnPilot]

Not with the mainline legacy folks in the same union....Maybe it will happen if we can get a union without the legacy "ego".....The legacy folks think they are a higher life form....They are the ones that are preventing a single union....

it's no secret that there are people on both sides of this issue who's egos are standing in the way of any progress we can hope to make.

I want a single list at Skywest Inc.....I also want a union that doesn't oppose my company getting bigger with larger aircraft....Can ALPA do that? If so I am willing to stay....Otherwise it is time to leave....

well, it's not ALPA National that's opposing your company growing with larger aircraft, it's the Delta pilots. Going to an independent union at ASA is not going to fix that problem either.

How would the independent union work financially at ASA though? The numbers simply don't add up to anything successful. An independent union at that level will not be able to collect enough dues revenue to function, unless dues were closer to 5%

 

[JoeMerchant]

can I say neither

Skywest has better management than Mesa, and that along with the fact that Skywest wants to keep ALPA off property, probably factors in to the fact that it's a nicer place to work.

I just don't see how ASA would be better off without ALPA. What do you think will change there?

It's a simple question.....I'll take your answer as you would rather work at Skywest....

A good company trumps ALPA in this environment....

I think we can get a single list without ALPA....IMO ALPA is preventing that.....

In addition, ALPA is trying to limit my company through scope....I understand the argument...but that doesn't alter the fact that they want to limit my company....

The perfect answer would be an ALPA that "gets it"....but it is clear that isn't going to happen...Time for us to go our separate way and do what is best for us.....

 

[SaturnPilot]

No I don't....My job is threatened by fellow ALPA pilots in this country....Both mainline and regional....I have mainline pilots trying to take my job when they get bumped back....I have mainline and regional ALPA pilots bidding against me for my flying....Deal with that issue than we can talk about other countries that don't even have enough pilots to cover their own flying....

I certainly don't want to make that problem any worse by allowing Mexicana to compete with my job flying JFK-MIA. I think most of the mainline pilots would want a system that would not effect someone in your position. Most of the talk currently going on is for mainline pilots to get first rights on left seat positions created by any increase in flying at a regional due to a reduction in mainline flying.

Nobody is looking to extend the duty day...Flight hours don't matter to me....If I flew tran-cons....I would rather fly back to the east coast rather than go to the hotel for 9 or 10 hours and come back as a red eye.....Those of us at the regional level do 14 hour days with 8 hours of flying and 6 approaches/landings.... 9 hours of flying with 2 landings in that same 14 hours would be easier...

so if JetBlue got the max hours per day raised to 10, you don't think the regionals would try to make it so you could fly 10 hours in a 18 hour duty day and do 8 landings? It's just one more step in a direction we don't need to go.

 

[JoeMerchant]

it's no secret that there are people on both sides of this issue who's egos are standing in the way of any progress we can hope to make.

Can you clarify that....What position on our side is holding up the progress? Please specify what "ego" on our side...

well, it's not ALPA National that's opposing your company growing with larger aircraft, it's the Delta pilots. Going to an independent union at ASA is not going to fix that problem either.

How would the independent union work financially at ASA though? The numbers simply don't add up to anything successful. An independent union at that level will not be able to collect enough dues revenue to function, unless dues were closer to 5%

There is only "ALPA"....ALPA signs agreements that oppose our growth....We can stay and file DFR lawsuits or we can leave....I'm OK with either at this point....But we aren't going to get along in this environment....

As far as the numbers...There would have to be some belt tightening in addition to the fact that I think that we could eventually get the other "little folks" on board....ie CMR, EGL, PDT, etc....The numbers would even out in the long run.....Given the current situation, I expect the ALPA dues to go up as the ALPA membership continues to decline with ASTAR, Atlas, Polar, and furloughs....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Those "few beers" are very valuable to me. Every cent counts right now as I approach a few mile stones in my life and student loans are still due. Regionals don't pay me enough for a "few beers" worth of money to not count. The way I understand it is that ALPA will take money pre everything, then comes 401k, then come taxes, then whatever's left over I get to send to my debtor or into savings and maybe, just maybe, I get to eat. (I'm not 1st year)

I don't know? Is it enough cost cutting? ALPA seems to still need more money.

ALPA does do good, I don't dispute that but I have a lot of issues with ALPA which would take this thread even farther away from it's original thoughts.

My participation? I attend meetings when I can, read everything I get when I can. I pay for it, might as well see what's goin on.

Also know that the pilots at the regionals use the same formula as the legacy pilots. This effort is to align the regionals with the same dues formula as the legacy.

In other words, the regionals have a formula that allows them to pay less... than the legacy... this effort is to get everyone on the same formula.

Many see it as everyone pay the same rate.. not the legacy pilots a higher rate and the regionals a lower rate.

I am against it. I don't think it is the right time...


As to your last..... do you vote?

 

[SaturnPilot]

It's a simple question.....I'll take your answer as you would rather work at Skywest....

A good company trumps ALPA in this environment....

I think we can get a single list without ALPA....IMO ALPA is preventing that.....

In addition, ALPA is trying to limit my company through scope....I understand the argument...but that doesn't alter the fact that they want to limit my company....

The perfect answer would be an ALPA that "gets it"....but it is clear that isn't going to happen...Time for us to go our separate way and do what is best for us.....

ok, would you rather work at Expressjet or Skywest? We could have that argument all day. I did answer your question. I have no desire to work for either Skywest or Mesa. If I did work for Skywest or Mesa, I sure as hell would want ALPA on property though.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I certainly don't want to make that problem any worse by allowing Mexicana to compete with my job flying JFK-MIA. I think most of the mainline pilots would want a system that would not effect someone in your position. Most of the talk currently going on is for mainline pilots to get first rights on left seat positions created by any increase in flying at a regional due to a reduction in mainline flying.

Most foreign companies pay more than many ALPA regionals....In addition they can't staff their airlines with their own folks...My job is threatened by US ALPA members willing to undercut me and/or bump me out of my seat.....Strawman argument to deflect criticism of ALPA....

so if JetBlue got the max hours per day raised to 10, you don't think the regionals would try to make it so you could fly 10 hours in a 18 hour duty day and do 8 landings? It's just one more step in a direction we don't need to go.

First they were trying to get an exemption for their transcons.....The other legacies opposed that....I doubt the exemption would extend to regional legs.....

That said...I don't really care how many hours I fly....Sitting around at the airport is more fatiguing and rest at the hotel is more important.....What is so magical about 8 hours of flying.....The important issues are duty time and rest....Sitting in the cockpit isn't the big issue....Focus on the big issues....

 

[JoeMerchant]

ok, would you rather work at Expressjet or Skywest? We could have that argument all day. I did answer your question. I have no desire to work for either Skywest or Mesa. If I did work for Skywest or Mesa, I sure as hell would want ALPA on property though.

No....you dodged the question...I will answer yours....

I would rather work at Skywest than at Expressjet....Now do you want to try again?

Would you rather work at Skywest or Mesa? I answered your question....Pick one! Quit being an ALPA cheerleader for just this one question.....

 

[SaturnPilot]

Can you clarify that....What position on our side is holding up the progress? Please specify what "ego" on our side...

There are those at regionals who wish to be integrated into lists at the majors to the left seat of a 757 as though we're talking about a merger. There are those who when majors are furloughing have no other response other than "we'll hire you back at the bottom if you relax your scope more allowing us to grow", etc, etc. These types of positions hold zero chance of success and serve nothing other than to piss people off.

There is only "ALPA"....ALPA signs agreements that oppose our growth....We can stay and file DFR lawsuits or we can leave....I'm OK with either at this point....But we aren't going to get along in this environment....

no, that's not true. In your case there is only Delta pilots and ASA pilots. You being non-ALPA will not change one single ounce of Delta pilots resolve to keep as much of their scope as possible. In fact, if you leave ALPA, it will probably worsen relations between the two groups. Why do you want more higher paying Delta jobs to be outsourced to ASA? It is the same job, just lower paying. I don't understand why you feel your company needs to grow more at Delta's expense.

As far as the numbers...There would have to be some belt tightening in addition to the fact that I think that we could eventually get the other "little folks" on board....ie CMR, EGL, PDT, etc....The numbers would even out in the long run.....Given the current situation, I expect the ALPA dues to go up as the ALPA membership continues to decline with ASTAR, Atlas, Polar, and furloughs....

a union of regionals would certainly need a lot of belt tightening...belt tightening in areas like less experienced and fewer legal services, little or no economic analysis of your company during negotiations...I don't even know how negotiations would work. An independent regional MEC your size would take in less than a half a million dollars in dues revenue a year. Your negotiating committee alone would burn through that in flight pay loss, legal fees, etc. Realistically, I don't see any way of that working.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Most foreign companies pay more than many ALPA regionals....In addition they can't staff their airlines with their own folks...My job is threatened by US ALPA members willing to undercut me and/or bump me out of my seat.....Strawman argument to deflect criticism of ALPA....

Joe, I agree with you that our job security over here is "lacking", to put it nicely, but to act as though open skies is not a threat is ignoring yet another freight train heading for our profession.

First they were trying to get an exemption for their transcons.....The other legacies opposed that....I doubt the exemption would extend to regional legs.....

That said...I don't really care how many hours I fly....Sitting around at the airport is more fatiguing and rest at the hotel is more important.....What is so magical about 8 hours of flying.....The important issues are duty time and rest....Sitting in the cockpit isn't the big issue....Focus on the big issues....

well, you must have more energy than a lot of us, because 14-16 hours of duty flying 8 hours with 6 legs can get fatiguing enough without adding more legs/hours/duty onto it

 

[SaturnPilot]

No....you dodged the question...I will answer yours....

I would rather work at Skywest than at Expressjet....Now do you want to try again?

Would you rather work at Skywest or Mesa? I answered your question....Pick one! Quit being an ALPA cheerleader for just this one question.....

I'm not an ALPA cheerleader. I simply look at what options are in front of me and I choose the best option after carefully considering the facts. Right now there are many things I wish ALPA would do differently, but I see no viable better alternative to being an ALPA member at my current job. Losing ALPA where I work would not make my life any better what-so-ever...it would most certainly turn worse.

You've got a lot of anger against ALPA because of the situation between Delta pilots and ASA pilots. That will NOT change no matter what union you or the Delta pilots belong to. They personally want to keep all of their flying and you personally want to make your company grow. Try to get rid of ALPA if you want, but that won't change the situation over there one bit.

I don't want to work at Skywest or Mesa. If for some odd reason those were the only two choices on the planet I had, I guess I would choose Skywest and then do everything I can to convince my coworkers to get ALPA on the property.