Can someone explain the national seniority list?

[sclark161]

How would it work? If a United guy, or whoever, gets furloughed, would he jump to x airline in seniority order and bump a guy at the bottom of the list out of a job or would he go to the bottom with longevity pay and benefits assuming x airline is hiring. And why would they take a guy at 10 year pay vs. a new hire? Not trying to flame, just looking for some info.
​

 

[Jmoney]

"Paging Mr Merchant! Mr. Joe Merchant!"

-RJDC B.S. Needed, aisle 3!

-Be sure to throw in "fiduciary" about 12 times-you will cound just like that Ford idiot!

 

[sclark161]

Hey thanks man. I'd appreciate it if you could be a little bit more obscure. Of course you could be making perfect sense and I could lay off the sauced posts. Either way, thanks for the witty retort.

 

[PCL_128]

We can't explain something that doesn't (and never will) exist.

 

[Widow's Son]

A national seniority list was tried once amongst the myriad airline entities that loosely comprised the old Aeroflot of the former Soviet Union.

It didn't work there either.

 

[Occam's Razor]

How would it work?

It wouldn't.

If a United guy, or whoever, gets furloughed, would he jump to x airline in seniority order and bump a guy at the bottom of the list out of a job or would he go to the bottom with longevity pay and benefits assuming x airline is hiring.

The concept is called "looping". You get furloughed and you go to another airline at your "national" number. The next "accordian-effect" contraction causes the junior pilots at your new airline to get cut loose...sending them to, conceivably, your original airline.

And why would they take a guy at 10 year pay vs. a new hire?

Because you'd ENTER your new airline at 10-years of seniority...so you'd be flying (and getting paid for) whatever that equates to at that airline.

Not trying to flame, just looking for some info.

Here is a good description of it's feasibility.

 

[michael707767]

the problem with a national seniority list is the union does not control hiring.Say we had a national list and a pilot gets furloughed from UAL. He could then use that seniority wherever he could get hired. But there lies the problem. Why would an airline hire you, and have to pay you based on your years of service while at the same time pissing off their current pilots who have someone drop in on top of them. It would be easier, and cheaper, to hire some kid.

The only way we could get the airlines to buy off on being able to use your "national seniority" would be to accept serious wage cuts.

 

[Soverytired]

It's a nice pie-in-the-sky union non-solution to the problem of having to start at the bottom of every US airline you work for, but it simply will never happen.

Of course, you could just go to a non-US airline and go straight to the captain seat if you're qualified . . . .

(and get paid gobs of money to do it)

 

[Max Powers]

Its designed to help the old folks.

 

[ifly4u]

National seniority is a pipe dream. What we need is national longevity. You would have to offer tax credits or some other incentive for the airlines to hire people with greater longevity but if done right it could work. They passed age 65 to benefit a few how hard would it be to pass legislation that benefits everyone?

 

[PCL_128]

National seniority is a pipe dream. What we need is national longevity. You would have to offer tax credits or some other incentive for the airlines to hire people with greater longevity but if done right it could work. They passed age 65 to benefit a few how hard would it be to pass legislation that benefits everyone?

Are you kidding? Tax credits? Better vote for Obama if you want any sort of tax credits meant to benefit air line pilots. McCain would give them tax credits for firing all of us and replacing us with computers.

 

[ifly4u]

Are you kidding? Tax credits? Better vote for Obama if you want any sort of tax credits meant to benefit air line pilots. McCain would give them tax credits for firing all of us and replacing us with computers.

You have to think like a politician. First you scare the public with news stories about inexperienced underqualified pilots at the airlines, then you float national longevity as the "solution" to this problem. Sell it to the public as a safety initiative and voila. Use lots of buzzwords like "discrimination" and "fair treatment". They did it with age 65 so why not?

 

[Wheres the van?]

National seniority,that dog dont hunt.National seat (ie this is how much a 737 driver costs),that would add a whole lot of stability to what we do,we in effect become a cost of doing business just like that good old barrel of oil no ifs ands or buts.
Miami Air 737 CA $200ph,Southwest 737 CA $200ph.Its that easy,the problem is most pilots are as dumb as a bag of hammers,even though they relish the concept of a 40 year career they will sell there first born for a perceived short term gain,some will even come on this board and sound the merits of a politician who has conspired to undermine our profession even further,like I said dumb as a bag of hammers.If you want a definition of madness keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.Salute Brutai!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The real problem with a NSL is many ..too many pilots think that it is possible and probable.. They blame unions for not making it happen and with draw their support because of it....

Nothing worse than a group of pilots who pack up their marbles and go home all because someone else won't make an unworkable problem reality...

 

[GogglesPisano]

I agree with "Where's the Van."

A true union would have standard pay scales for all aircraft. You want a 737 CA? He costs $200/hr.

This "Loose affiliation of locals" will never restore what we once had.

 

[Peanut gallery]

The best part of this

It only comes up when a large major is about to fold. Why did we not talk about this when Aloha or ATA went out. Not until everybody started talking about the Untidy pending failure did this topic surface again. The last time was when Pan Am and Eastern Failed. This truely is the proof that although we fought communism for so many years in beats pure in our own hearts when we get threatened with the realities of a market driven system in our own backyard. A modern realist calls this the convenient capitalist, take the good and scream against goverment interference but when it turns bad where is that government that should protect us from these terrible market forces.

Have a good day Comrades

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I agree with "Where's the Van."

A true union would have standard pay scales for all aircraft. You want a 737 CA? He costs $200/hr.

And what about the companies that can't operate under those wages?

And what about the company that can afford more than $200. Why should a FedEx pilot only make $200 when Fred can give up 220 or 250/hr?

This "Loose affiliation of locals" will never restore what we once had.

I agree there needs to be more of a national agenda, however, the locals jack up the house... for example UAL2000 and DAL2001.

It only comes up when a large major is about to fold. Why did we not talk about this when Aloha or ATA went out. Not until everybody started talking about the Untidy pending failure did this topic surface again. The last time was when Pan Am and Eastern Failed. This truely is the proof that although we fought communism for so many years in beats pure in our own hearts when we get threatened with the realities of a market driven system in our own backyard. A modern realist calls this the convenient capitalist, take the good and scream against goverment interference but when it turns bad where is that government that should protect us from these terrible market forces.

Have a good day Comrades

Good point... NSL isn't mentioned during the good times when everyone is getting theirs....

And the only time that NSL is talked about is.. when layoff/job loss is happening to the guy talking about NSL.... As long as everyone else has theirs they will just pull the ladder up....


Free market capitalism.... I got mine baby!!

 

[Wheres the van?]

It only comes up when a large major is about to fold. Why did we not talk about this when Aloha or ATA went out. Not until everybody started talking about the Untidy pending failure did this topic surface again. The last time was when Pan Am and Eastern Failed. This truely is the proof that although we fought communism for so many years in beats pure in our own hearts when we get threatened with the realities of a market driven system in our own backyard. A modern realist calls this the convenient capitalist, take the good and scream against goverment interference but when it turns bad where is that government that should protect us from these terrible market forces.

Have a good day Comrades

Dos Vadania,listen Im going to say this again and I suggest you read it nice and slow if we as a pilot block set our cost (the amount set for skill and professionalism)at a non negiotionable rate,we would in an up economy not make huge amounts of money and equally in a down economy not lose huge amounts of money.The rate is the rate.This is not Communism nor is it Capitalism or even nudism if ism's are your thing,this is stability for my chosen profession,just as OB-GYN should be supported in "practicing there love to women",pilots should be allowed practice there skill and experiance for a given rate,no exciting highs,no depth defying lows,just stability.

 

[Freight Dog]

Drop the longevity pay concept and adopt one level of pay:

- 737 FO's make $90/hour
- 737 CA's make $140/hour

Drop the probationary pay. Drop the tiered, longevity raises. We either do the same job, or we do not.

Should have seen the blind stares I received when I told some Aloha captains that I didn't feel comfortable with probationary guys making $2k a month when I was making $7.5k for doing the exact same job. Probationary and early-on pay severely sags the bar low.

It should be NO longevity raises and EQUAL pay for EQUAL work. If one gets a raise, everyone gets a raise.

US airline pilots are doomed because they're refusing to think outside the box. They're stuck in archaic seniority systems which only work against them.

 

[pilotyip]

Do research on the Maritime industry, they have national seniority list

 

[Occam's Razor]

Do research on the Maritime industry, they have national seniority list

Cool! My position with a Liberian-flagged B747 is set!

 

[Ocity]

How would it work? If a United guy, or whoever, gets furloughed, would he jump to x airline in seniority order and bump a guy at the bottom of the list out of a job or would he go to the bottom with longevity pay and benefits assuming x airline is hiring. And why would they take a guy at 10 year pay vs. a new hire? Not trying to flame, just looking for some info.
​

Ask the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny about it. I think they're spearheading this initiative.

 

[Peanut gallery]

I completely understand your point

Dos Vadania,listen Im going to say this again and I suggest you read it nice and slow if we as a pilot block set our cost (the amount set for skill and professionalism)at a non negiotionable rate,we would in an up economy not make huge amounts of money and equally in a down economy not lose huge amounts of money.The rate is the rate.This is not Communism nor is it Capitalism or even nudism if ism's are your thing,this is stability for my chosen profession,just as OB-GYN should be supported in "practicing there love to women",pilots should be allowed practice there skill and experiance for a given rate,no exciting highs,no depth defying lows,just stability.

My comments were not aimed at your perspective, more at the pilot group mentality at large. It is that mentality that would never allow your ideas to happen.

 

[Draginass]

Def: National Seniority List

1. An unrealistic, unworkable, pie-in-the-sky concept whereby the aircraft piloting profession is formed into a common national hiring and working guild. Like many attractive ideas, forming a NSL is impractical due to the competing interests among employers as well as the pilots themselves. Issues such as pay, determining the basis of date-of-hire or the predetermined criteria for initially rank ordering seniority among the tens of thousands of working pilots would prove unsurmountable. This would leave it to the government to legislate the issue. Given the fact that the government officials are fully busy stuffing their own pockets with public and corporate money and shows no interest in even developing a national energy policy, it's highly unlikely that they would give NSL legislation any consideration at all.

2. A professional fantasy

 

[Peanut gallery]

Seniority

Let's open up that can of worms.

FAA or government individual decides date of initial Commercial license decides seniority.

 

[WabiSabi]

"A NSL is a Pie-in-the-Sky", "...pipe dream" ".....never happen", unrealistiic" etc. Be that as it may, it also means that MBA's and stockholders will always own our profession. In other words, owning our profession is a pie-in-the-sky, pipe dream, won't ever happen, unrealistic, etc.. I don't claim to have the answers but, unless their is a collective voice in some manifestation, be it a guild, NSL, longevity list, reregulation etc., we will continue in this race to the bottom.

I am not one but, if you call me a commie, I don't care. Laissez faire capitalism is just as bad as communism. Purely throwing our pay and bennies to the winds of the market is sending our profession to Wal Mart mentality and Greyhound bus driver pay scales. We need standards to show the "market" that we won't fly below a certain level of compensation. We need to show management that if they want to be stupid enough to charge fares that would make it such that it is cheaper to fly than drive, take a bus or train, then it won't come out of our asses. Management needs to learn that if fuel prices increase, air fares should be proportionally increased. If that means less passengers, so be it. I would rather be furloughed for a real reason like inflation than be furloughed because of management whimsy.

 

[Draginass]

"A NSL is a Pie-in-the-Sky", "...pipe dream" ".....never happen", unrealistiic" etc. Be that as it may, it also means that MBA's and stockholders will always own our profession. In other words, owning our profession is a pie-in-the-sky, pipe dream, won't ever happen, unrealistic, etc.. I don't claim to have the answers but, unless their is a collective voice in some manifestation, be it a guild, NSL, longevity list, reregulation etc., we will continue in this race to the bottom.

I am not one but, if you call me a commie, I don't care. Laissez faire capitalism is just as bad as communism. Purely throwing our pay and bennies to the winds of the market is sending our profession to Wal Mart mentality and Greyhound bus driver pay scales. We need standards to show the "market" that we won't fly below a certain level of compensation. We need to show management that if they want to be stupid enough to charge fares that would make it such that it is cheaper to fly than drive, take a bus or train, then it won't come out of our asses. Management needs to learn that if fuel prices increase, air fares should be proportionally increased. If that means less passengers, so be it. I would rather be furloughed for a real reason like inflation than be furloughed because of management whimsy.

Ok, you can start setting that standard today. Either you're part of the problem or part of the solution. Since you're worth what you're willing to work for, what's your hourly rate, monthly guarantee, and days worked per month so we can get a rough baseline.

 

[WabiSabi]

Ok, you can start setting that standard today. Either you're part of the problem or part of the solution. Since you're worth what you're willing to work for, what's your hourly rate, monthly guarantee, and days worked per month so we can get a rough baseline.

Sorry, as much as you'd like to think so, it is not that black and white.

Any numbers that I state on this forum would be completely arbitrary so your request is illogical.