Can someone explain the national seniority list?

[Peanut gallery]

The best part of this

It only comes up when a large major is about to fold. Why did we not talk about this when Aloha or ATA went out. Not until everybody started talking about the Untidy pending failure did this topic surface again. The last time was when Pan Am and Eastern Failed. This truely is the proof that although we fought communism for so many years in beats pure in our own hearts when we get threatened with the realities of a market driven system in our own backyard. A modern realist calls this the convenient capitalist, take the good and scream against goverment interference but when it turns bad where is that government that should protect us from these terrible market forces.

Have a good day Comrades

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I agree with "Where's the Van."

A true union would have standard pay scales for all aircraft. You want a 737 CA? He costs $200/hr.

And what about the companies that can't operate under those wages?

And what about the company that can afford more than $200. Why should a FedEx pilot only make $200 when Fred can give up 220 or 250/hr?

This "Loose affiliation of locals" will never restore what we once had.

I agree there needs to be more of a national agenda, however, the locals jack up the house... for example UAL2000 and DAL2001.

It only comes up when a large major is about to fold. Why did we not talk about this when Aloha or ATA went out. Not until everybody started talking about the Untidy pending failure did this topic surface again. The last time was when Pan Am and Eastern Failed. This truely is the proof that although we fought communism for so many years in beats pure in our own hearts when we get threatened with the realities of a market driven system in our own backyard. A modern realist calls this the convenient capitalist, take the good and scream against goverment interference but when it turns bad where is that government that should protect us from these terrible market forces.

Have a good day Comrades

Good point... NSL isn't mentioned during the good times when everyone is getting theirs....

And the only time that NSL is talked about is.. when layoff/job loss is happening to the guy talking about NSL.... As long as everyone else has theirs they will just pull the ladder up....


Free market capitalism.... I got mine baby!!

 

[Wheres the van?]

It only comes up when a large major is about to fold. Why did we not talk about this when Aloha or ATA went out. Not until everybody started talking about the Untidy pending failure did this topic surface again. The last time was when Pan Am and Eastern Failed. This truely is the proof that although we fought communism for so many years in beats pure in our own hearts when we get threatened with the realities of a market driven system in our own backyard. A modern realist calls this the convenient capitalist, take the good and scream against goverment interference but when it turns bad where is that government that should protect us from these terrible market forces.

Have a good day Comrades

Dos Vadania,listen Im going to say this again and I suggest you read it nice and slow if we as a pilot block set our cost (the amount set for skill and professionalism)at a non negiotionable rate,we would in an up economy not make huge amounts of money and equally in a down economy not lose huge amounts of money.The rate is the rate.This is not Communism nor is it Capitalism or even nudism if ism's are your thing,this is stability for my chosen profession,just as OB-GYN should be supported in "practicing there love to women",pilots should be allowed practice there skill and experiance for a given rate,no exciting highs,no depth defying lows,just stability.

 

[Freight Dog]

Drop the longevity pay concept and adopt one level of pay:

- 737 FO's make $90/hour
- 737 CA's make $140/hour

Drop the probationary pay. Drop the tiered, longevity raises. We either do the same job, or we do not.

Should have seen the blind stares I received when I told some Aloha captains that I didn't feel comfortable with probationary guys making $2k a month when I was making $7.5k for doing the exact same job. Probationary and early-on pay severely sags the bar low.

It should be NO longevity raises and EQUAL pay for EQUAL work. If one gets a raise, everyone gets a raise.

US airline pilots are doomed because they're refusing to think outside the box. They're stuck in archaic seniority systems which only work against them.

 

[pilotyip]

Do research on the Maritime industry, they have national seniority list

 

[Occam's Razor]

Do research on the Maritime industry, they have national seniority list

Cool! My position with a Liberian-flagged B747 is set!

 

[Ocity]

How would it work? If a United guy, or whoever, gets furloughed, would he jump to x airline in seniority order and bump a guy at the bottom of the list out of a job or would he go to the bottom with longevity pay and benefits assuming x airline is hiring. And why would they take a guy at 10 year pay vs. a new hire? Not trying to flame, just looking for some info.
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Ask the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny about it. I think they're spearheading this initiative.

 

[Peanut gallery]

I completely understand your point

Dos Vadania,listen Im going to say this again and I suggest you read it nice and slow if we as a pilot block set our cost (the amount set for skill and professionalism)at a non negiotionable rate,we would in an up economy not make huge amounts of money and equally in a down economy not lose huge amounts of money.The rate is the rate.This is not Communism nor is it Capitalism or even nudism if ism's are your thing,this is stability for my chosen profession,just as OB-GYN should be supported in "practicing there love to women",pilots should be allowed practice there skill and experiance for a given rate,no exciting highs,no depth defying lows,just stability.

My comments were not aimed at your perspective, more at the pilot group mentality at large. It is that mentality that would never allow your ideas to happen.

 

[Draginass]

Def: National Seniority List

1. An unrealistic, unworkable, pie-in-the-sky concept whereby the aircraft piloting profession is formed into a common national hiring and working guild. Like many attractive ideas, forming a NSL is impractical due to the competing interests among employers as well as the pilots themselves. Issues such as pay, determining the basis of date-of-hire or the predetermined criteria for initially rank ordering seniority among the tens of thousands of working pilots would prove unsurmountable. This would leave it to the government to legislate the issue. Given the fact that the government officials are fully busy stuffing their own pockets with public and corporate money and shows no interest in even developing a national energy policy, it's highly unlikely that they would give NSL legislation any consideration at all.

2. A professional fantasy

 

[Peanut gallery]

Seniority

Let's open up that can of worms.

FAA or government individual decides date of initial Commercial license decides seniority.

 

[WabiSabi]

"A NSL is a Pie-in-the-Sky", "...pipe dream" ".....never happen", unrealistiic" etc. Be that as it may, it also means that MBA's and stockholders will always own our profession. In other words, owning our profession is a pie-in-the-sky, pipe dream, won't ever happen, unrealistic, etc.. I don't claim to have the answers but, unless their is a collective voice in some manifestation, be it a guild, NSL, longevity list, reregulation etc., we will continue in this race to the bottom.

I am not one but, if you call me a commie, I don't care. Laissez faire capitalism is just as bad as communism. Purely throwing our pay and bennies to the winds of the market is sending our profession to Wal Mart mentality and Greyhound bus driver pay scales. We need standards to show the "market" that we won't fly below a certain level of compensation. We need to show management that if they want to be stupid enough to charge fares that would make it such that it is cheaper to fly than drive, take a bus or train, then it won't come out of our asses. Management needs to learn that if fuel prices increase, air fares should be proportionally increased. If that means less passengers, so be it. I would rather be furloughed for a real reason like inflation than be furloughed because of management whimsy.

 

[Draginass]

"A NSL is a Pie-in-the-Sky", "...pipe dream" ".....never happen", unrealistiic" etc. Be that as it may, it also means that MBA's and stockholders will always own our profession. In other words, owning our profession is a pie-in-the-sky, pipe dream, won't ever happen, unrealistic, etc.. I don't claim to have the answers but, unless their is a collective voice in some manifestation, be it a guild, NSL, longevity list, reregulation etc., we will continue in this race to the bottom.

I am not one but, if you call me a commie, I don't care. Laissez faire capitalism is just as bad as communism. Purely throwing our pay and bennies to the winds of the market is sending our profession to Wal Mart mentality and Greyhound bus driver pay scales. We need standards to show the "market" that we won't fly below a certain level of compensation. We need to show management that if they want to be stupid enough to charge fares that would make it such that it is cheaper to fly than drive, take a bus or train, then it won't come out of our asses. Management needs to learn that if fuel prices increase, air fares should be proportionally increased. If that means less passengers, so be it. I would rather be furloughed for a real reason like inflation than be furloughed because of management whimsy.

Ok, you can start setting that standard today. Either you're part of the problem or part of the solution. Since you're worth what you're willing to work for, what's your hourly rate, monthly guarantee, and days worked per month so we can get a rough baseline.

 

[WabiSabi]

Ok, you can start setting that standard today. Either you're part of the problem or part of the solution. Since you're worth what you're willing to work for, what's your hourly rate, monthly guarantee, and days worked per month so we can get a rough baseline.

Sorry, as much as you'd like to think so, it is not that black and white.

Any numbers that I state on this forum would be completely arbitrary so your request is illogical.