NWA DC-9's

[PuffDriver]

Puff,

The problem you FDJC, and other I have talked to is you believe everything you are being told.

The NW MEC does not prefer arbitration, however arbitration may be a preferable alternative to the grossly lopsided deal you want to impose on the NW pilots.

A mutually negotiated SLI is far preferable, but as evidenced by the typical hubris I see here and talking to other DAL pilots does not lend itself to a negotiated deal. I hope I'm wrong.

Somehow I don't think we'll be the ones getting creamed, however If we do it will be no worse than the terms you want to dictate to the NW pilots, and will probably be far better.

It's pretty cut and dried, really. I have been told nothing. It just stands to reason. The past is the past, the future is the future. We can change neither. You cannot recoup the fruits of our retirement, and you cannot recoup the fruits of some pilots that might retire, nor can we. So we are where we are. We have two like groups, yet one is more senior than the other in terms of age but not seniority. We have the widebodies, true that they are not "premium" widebodies, and they pay more than your premium, widebodies. With a working agreement in place prior to the SLI list, hostages will not be able to be taken, and a contract will not be held in abeyance as a penalty for an "unfair" award.

Your words may state that a mutually negotiated list is preferrable, but your MEC actions indicate otherwise. So they will stand their ground, unless that ground actually shows Delta pilots unwittingly coming out ahead, then they will back up even further. This will go to arbitration under ALPA merger policy, and the SLI will come away looking strikingly similar to what the Delta pilots have proposed.

BTW-I appreciate your admission that you have stymied the negotiations as "you will do no worse in arbitration anyway". Your idiocy will have cost us at minimum some great contractual gains, equity, and other penalties yet to be determined.

 

[clippyrip]

.....................


why bother, its like playing tennis with a brick wall.

 

[Fly4hire]

BTW-I appreciate your admission that you have stymied the negotiations as "you will do no worse in arbitration anyway". Your idiocy will have cost us at minimum some great contractual gains, equity, and other penalties yet to be determined.

More of your MEC standard talking points.

Is this the excuse you will use to grab for more since we supposedly cost you something?

How's about "we get on board the train cause' it's leaving with or without us", or "we need to get used to the DAL culture"? Sure, RA is your friend - you have him all straightened out.

Keep believing everything you are told - you guys are in for a very rude surprise.

 

[PuffDriver]

.....................


why bother, its like playing tennis with a brick wall.

I'm not waiting until you breakdown and say that I am right. It really doesn't matter who is right, but WHAT is right. Time will prove both. In short, the NWA MEc tried to grab the money, grab the seniority, AND grab the reitrements. T'aint going to fly

 

[DTW320]

This will go to arbitration under ALPA merger policy, and the SLI will come away looking strikingly similar to what the Delta pilots have proposed.

BTW-I appreciate your admission that you have stymied the negotiations as "you will do no worse in arbitration anyway". Your idiocy will have cost us at minimum some great contractual gains, equity, and other penalties yet to be determined.

There you go again Puff, just like before, you admit that tha DALPA SLI proposal = NWALPA "getting creamed". You said if it goes to arbitration we will get creamed. Then you say that if we go to arbitration it will end up "strikingly similar" to what DALPA proposed. Excuse me, but if those are truly the odds, then I'll take my chances with an arbitrator vs VOLUNTARILY accepting "getting creamed" by DALPA, which is exactly what it would amount to if we took your last proposal. Call it "idiocy" if you want, but I think the truth is that compared to your SLI offer we stand a much better chance with arbitration. Sorry that by waiting for the last appeal to be heard vs voluntarily climbing the gallows we cost you some "great contractual gains". How can we ever make it up to you?

I'm glad that the vast majority of DAL pilots I've talked to on the line, on hotel vans, and commuting have a completely different attitude about all of this than you do.

 

[PuffDriver]

More of your MEC standard talking points.

Is this the excuse you will use to grab for more since we supposedly cost you something?

How's about "we get on board the train cause' it's leaving with or without us", or "we need to get used to the DAL culture"? Sure, RA is your friend - you have him all straightened out.

Keep believing everything you are told - you guys are in for a very rude surprise.

Not part of the MEC, nor will I be. They don't want me. There is no excuse for "grabbing" something, because we are not. We have been fair about this from day 1. All the while "working with" and MEC who has tried to do the grabbing, got denied, disappeared, and then acts shocked that things could move along without them.

Is it any wonder that such deriliction of duty could have any other recourse other than to paint the other side as "scabs"? Wanting your cake, my cake, future cakes, and all of the icing won't fly, and you will get your pee-pee wacked in arbitration under merger policy for suggesting so.

 

[PuffDriver]

There you go again Puff, just like before, you admit that tha DALPA SLI proposal = NWALPA "getting creamed". You said if it goes to arbitration we will get creamed. Then you say that if we go to arbitration it will end up "strikingly similar" to what DALPA proposed. Excuse me, but if those are truly the odds, then I'll take my chances with an arbitrator vs VOLUNTARILY accepting "getting creamed" by DALPA, which is exactly what it would amount to if we took your last proposal. Call it "idiocy" if you want, but I think the truth is that compared to your SLI offer we stand a much better chance with arbitration. Sorry that by waiting for the last appeal to be heard vs voluntarily climbing the gallows we cost you some "great contractual gains". How can we ever make it up to you?

I'm glad that the vast majority of DAL pilots I've talked to on the line, on hotel vans, and commuting have a completely different attitude about all of this than you do.

Actually, "getting creamed" is from the viewpoint of the NWA pilots--from a standpoint of your vision-not mine. It's funny that you think a fair proposal from the Delta pilots is equivalent of climbing the gallows. thus you feel that if an arbitrator gave a list resembling a Delta proposal that you would feel as if you got creamed. I would call it a very fair list, and in the same manner feel as if I got creamed.

Get it now?

 

[clippyrip]

Another volley from the brick wall.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The NW MEC does not prefer arbitration, however arbitration may be a preferable alternative to the grossly lopsided deal you want to impose on the NW pilots.

Relative seniority seems fair to me and I do not understand why it is deemed "unfair" by the NWA side. Can you (or one of the NWA guys) explain in very simple terms (that I can understand) why relative senioirity is such a non starter?

From my seat, a merger into bigger, better paying, equipment in an operation run by a more pilot friendly management seems like a win, win, win. Delta sure seems like (from here) as a whole lot better place to work. I know that is a separate issue than seniority, but it fits into the equation of job satisfaction. Why wouldn't you want "relative seniority" into a better deal?

Many past arbitrations have gone by pay and equipment type (similar to relative seniority by equipment). If (big IF) something like that happened it would be ugly.

As long as there is no bump, no flush and I can keep ATL, I'll be happy. Status quo all they way....

 

[DTW320]

Wanting your cake, my cake, future cakes, and all of the icing won't fly, and you will get your pee-pee wacked in arbitration under merger policy for suggesting so.

Gee, is that "icing" anything like DALPA wanting to put junior NWA pilots below future DAL hires? Yeah, someone will be "getting their pee-pee wacked"/"creamed"/insert lame attempt at sounding cool and confident here. HINT: It will most likely be the side that has been putting everything in writing.

 

[PuffDriver]

Gee, is that "icing" anything like DALPA wanting to put junior NWA pilots below future DAL hires? Yeah, someone will be "getting their pee-pee wacked"/"creamed"/insert lame attempt at sounding cool and confident here. HINT: It will most likely be the side that has been putting everything in writing.

I know that you would like to think that, buuuuuttt unfortunately all of the previous negotiations are non-binding. Until the day of PID, everything is off the table. I fully expect both sides to then go harbor in their corners and dig in until an arbitrator comes into the picture. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and a fair list can be worked out, but I give better odds of winning the lottery.

"Every battle is won before it is fought".

 

[DTW320]

It's funny that you think a fair proposal from the Delta pilots is equivalent of climbing the gallows.

Maybe you missed what I said. Here it is again:

Call it "idiocy" if you want, but I think the truth is that compared to your SLI offer we stand a much better chance with arbitration.

Get it? (We don't think your proposal was even close to "fair"....believe me, we are generally a greedy bunch, if it was even close to fair we would have jumped all over the money/equity. If you knew NWALPA, the fact that we didn't accept it would be the most telling point imaginable concerning the fairness of your proposal)

 

[DTW320]

I know that you would like to think that, buuuuuttt unfortunately all of the previous negotiations are non-binding. Until the day of PID, everything is off the table. I fully expect both sides to then go harbor in their corners and dig in until an arbitrator comes into the picture. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and a fair list can be worked out, but I give better odds of winning the lottery.

"Every battle is won before it is fought".

Glad to hear that you think that's how it works. I hope that DALPA agrees with you.This could actually be fun! BTW, I wasn't talking about previous negotiations.

 

[PuffDriver]

Maybe you missed what I said. Here it is again:

Call it "idiocy" if you want, but I think the truth is that compared to your SLI offer we stand a much better chance with arbitration.

Get it? (We don't think your proposal was even close to "fair"....believe me, we are generally a greedy bunch, if it was even close to fair we would have jumped all over the money/equity. If you knew NWALPA, the fact that we didn't accept it would be the most telling point imaginable concerning the fairness of your proposal)

I disagree with your premise. I think that the NWA MEC THOUGHT that they had more leverage than they did. IOW, they thought that they could get the raises AND a better deal on seniority given more time. Problem was that there WASN'T any more time. So the deal fell. Then it was resurrected, and a time frame was given again. So the MEC went on vacation, time frame schmime frame. Calls went unreturned, and finally the Delta MEC had to look out for its members. Then the NWA MEC has the nerve to throw up their hands in surprise, and now oppose the merger because they showed up late and found out that the doors to the venue were locked.

From the start, the NWA has been overplaying the hand that they have been dealt--aka their leverage. they think that loss of career progression is akin to "going to the gallows", when in fact, it is part of the merger process. My guess is that they will once again do it in arbitration--la USAir. My guess is also that the Delta MEC stance in arbitration will be more unreasonable, for it is then that the posturing will truly start.

Sorry, that's the way I have seen it from the beginning. NWA pilots WILL lose career progression, they will NOT get credit for retirements which MAY or MAY NOT happen. They WILL get dinged for an inferior contract should there not be a joint contract in place prior to the PID. They WILL also get dinged for fewer widebodies. It's just what happens.

Yes, I know a thing or two about the arbitration process. Yes, it is correct that ALL of what has gone on up to the actual merger is NON-BINDING and NON precedential.

 

[nwaredtail]

I disagree with your premise. I think that the NWA MEC THOUGHT that they had more leverage than they did. IOW, they thought that they could get the raises AND a better deal on seniority given more time. Problem was that there WASN'T any more time. So the deal fell. Then it was resurrected, and a time frame was given again. So the MEC went on vacation, time frame schmime frame. Calls went unreturned, and finally the Delta MEC had to look out for its members. Then the NWA MEC has the nerve to throw up their hands in surprise, and now oppose the merger because they showed up late and found out that the doors to the venue were locked.

Actually, all this is wrong. Lee Moak has his nose up RA's butt and thinks he has a better pot to piss in. RA is laughing his tail off at how easy Moak was.

From the start, the NWA has been overplaying the hand that they have been dealt--aka their leverage.

Yup, those fortress hubs, 3+ billion in cash, best financial performance of any legacy. Save us, please.

Sorry, that's the way I have seen it from the beginning. NWA pilots WILL lose career progression,

So will Delta pilots, you know that, right?


They will NOT get credit for retirements which MAY or MAY NOT happen.

Wow, amazing how you know what an arbitrator will rule.

They WILL get dinged for an inferior contract should there not be a joint contract in place prior to the PID. They WILL also get dinged for fewer widebodies.

Just because you say, it doesn't mean Sh#t. I wouldn't exactly call most of your 767's, "widebodies, especially since they pay what a 757 pays. Pretty sure that would interest an arbitrator.

Yes, I know a thing or two about the arbitration process.
Really? I am pretty sure the NWA guys know Goobs more.

 

[FDJ2]

The NW MEC does not prefer arbitration, however arbitration may be a preferable alternative to the grossly lopsided deal you want to impose on the NW pilots.

You can't "impose" a negotiated result. By definition both sides agree to it. BTW, how do you know what the result will be in arbitration? I'm sure the AAA pilots were stunned by what they perceived as a lopsided result.

A mutually negotiated SLI is far preferable, but as evidenced by the typical hubris I see here and talking to other DAL pilots does not lend itself to a negotiated deal. I hope I'm wrong.

Hubris goes both ways. Don't worry about what you read on the forums. It's really not that difficult, it only becomes difficult when the marching orders are to get the "best deal" you can get, and not the fairest.

I'm sure a slotted list which accounts for each pilots relative position, along with what category his seniority can hold can be worked out. Throw in a few fences and it can get done

Somehow I don't think we'll be the ones getting creamed, however If we do it will be no worse than the terms you want to dictate to the NW pilots, and will probably be far better.

No one dictated terms. There was no agreement. We didn't dictate terms anymore than the NWA MEC did. We couldn't get it done in the time allowed, that same compressed timeline no longer exists. Hopefully we can work out a negotiated result without having to deal with the same time crunch. Let's be optimistic and hope for the best. Good, fair minded people can get it done better than a third party arbitrator.

 

[nwaredtail]

No one dictated terms. There was no agreement. We didn't dictate terms anymore than the NWA MEC did. We couldn't get it done in the time allowed, that same compressed timeline no longer exists. Hopefully we can work out a negotiated result without having to deal with the same time crunch. Let's be optimistic and hope for the best. Good, fair minded people can get it done better than a third party arbitrator.

I just saw what DALPA's idea of fair was. What a joke! Keep tripping over those dollars boys. RA must think you guys are so easy.

 

[DAL737FO]

[Just because you say, it doesn't mean Sh#t. I wouldn't exactly call most of your 767's, "widebodies, especially since they pay what a 757 pays. Pretty sure that would interest an arbitrator.

I agree with you about not knowing how an arbitrator is going to rule, however if you want to say our 767's pay the same as our 757's (which is true however it can be said that our 757's pay as much as our 767's) then our 757's pay the same as your A330 (DAL 757 160/hr NWA A330 162/hr). Additionally your 757's pay 144/hr our 737-800's pay more than that. This isn't about big airplane envy. It's about money pure and simple. Our's pay more and yes an arbitrator will take that into account.

 

[PuffDriver]

Actually, all this is wrong. Lee Moak has his nose up RA's butt and thinks he has a better pot to piss in. RA is laughing his tail off at how easy Moak was.

From the start, the NWA has been overplaying the hand that they have been dealt--aka their leverage.

Yup, those fortress hubs, 3+ billion in cash, best financial performance of any legacy. Save us, please.

Sorry, that's the way I have seen it from the beginning. NWA pilots WILL lose career progression,

So will Delta pilots, you know that, right?


They will NOT get credit for retirements which MAY or MAY NOT happen.

Wow, amazing how you know what an arbitrator will rule.

They WILL get dinged for an inferior contract should there not be a joint contract in place prior to the PID. They WILL also get dinged for fewer widebodies.

Just because you say, it doesn't mean Sh#t. I wouldn't exactly call most of your 767's, "widebodies, especially since they pay what a 757 pays. Pretty sure that would interest an arbitrator.

Yes, I know a thing or two about the arbitration process.
Really? I am pretty sure the NWA guys know Goobs more.

A lot of type, but little substance. RA "laughing his tail off". Ergo, RA beat the crap out of us, so he must be beating the crap out of LM--faulty logic there big guy.

Bragging about the best performing legacy carrier, while your costs go up with RASM on the decline and Delta just the opposite. Therein lies the problem, overplaying your perceived leverage. I liken that to LMs prettiest pup in the ugly little, although that too is debatable.

Yes, Delta pilots will lose career progression. Your one relevant piece of type.


757 rates equal to 767 rates--actually the 757 rate was brought UP to 767 rates, and both are equal to A330 rates at NWA. Yes, I think that will be of some interest. While the NWA merger committee may know more than me, it is only through their MECs continuous failures at negotiating anything, and with the legal experience on ours I'll go with ours on paper.

Keep trying though.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Knock it off, you mooks!

This lash-up is gonna be your home for the rest of your careers. So grow up and dial it back 100%.

What's happened so far has been unfortunate in that we didn't get it done. Mistakes were made by both sides. Got it? BOTH SIDES! When I write my book about this, I'll have to use crayon for the previous chapters.

It's complicated, but it's not hard. We're closer than you think.

Support your MEC's.