Delta pilots want joint contract and parity

[JAM-BRO]

I hear you.

I read what you put before you edited... Yes, I would like a small raise now, some equity, and then a new and improved agreement... Why not? Why divide the groups from the get go...

 

[FDJ2]

Could you please post the actual language of the LOA regarding a "parity trigger"?

I've written enough MEC resolutions to understand this one. "...to bring about..." means "try", not "will".

I hear the words. I'm watching the feet.

Don't expect us to do all the heavy lifting. You need to take ownership and responsibility for your PWA, which was negotiated because of your different priorities and you need to contribute to negotiating a joint contract as well. We will work with you to get parity ASAP, but we wont do it alone.

There is a timeline to get it done.

I hope your watching the feet of your negotiators. They ought to be heading to work to get a joint contract.



From our recent FAQ communique.

2.This agreement will allow for a period of time where two different pay rates will exist for the same or similar aircraft for Delta and Northwest pilots. Isn’t that something we would like to avoid?

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

In both the Western and Pan Am mergers, the acquired pilot groups operated under their old contracts for a period of time. In each case, there was a harmonization schedule established to step each group up to our higher pay rates. Achieving this type of parity will be one of our top priorities as we move toward a joint contract and a SLI. Northwest’s contract specifies that if their carrier is acquired by another carrier, then their PWA remains in full effect for them until the Northwest MEC negotiates changes. We have to respect the independence of the Northwest pilots and their MEC to establish their own strategic plan.
​

[/FONT]3. Will there be backlash from the Northwest pilots since they were not included in this agreement?

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]The Delta MEC considers the combined Northwest and Delta pilot groups to be one group now and our every action will reflect that belief. We chose a course of action that we felt provided the most value to ALL Delta pilots including our brothers and sisters from Northwest. We will put the full power of the Delta MEC and the Delta pilots behind our efforts to achieve contract harmonization for Northwest pilots in a short period of time, and make every effort to achieve a mutually agreeable solution on seniority list integration.
[/FONT]

 

[~~~^~~~]

I read what you put before you edited... Yes, I would like a small raise now, some equity, and then a new and improved agreement... Why not? Why divide the groups from the get go...

It would not be a big deal for you to get it. After all, everyone had more before the SLI deal failed.

LOA19 is no great shakes.... in fact, despite the MEC's enthusiastic support I would not be surprised if it gets voted down. The seniority weighted equity payout is a sore spot given what the junior guys have at stake in a merger.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Don't expect us to do all the heavy lifting. You need to take ownership and responsibility for your PWA, which was negotiated because of your different priorities and you need to contribute to negotiating a joint contract as well. We will work with you to get parity ASAP, but we wont do it alone.

There is a timeline to get it done.

I hope your watching the feet of your negotiators. They ought to be heading to work to get a joint contract.

Wow! I can snip a few lines out of the "We want harmony and parity" letter now. Why wasn't the "Don't expect us to do your heavy lifting" comment included?

(Your answer to that question will frame the dilemma nicely.)

You built nothing into your "I've got mine!" LOA to at least include the basic improvements?

Not good.

 

[FDJ2]

We could have a List within a month if both sides are willing to either:

We should have had one already. In which case we all would haveall been better off.

1. Hunker-down and get it done.

That would have been best done back in February. There was a short period of time to get it done, unfortunately some thought there was no timeline. Time ran out on Monday.

2. Frame an expedited arbitration process.

I don't see it happening. Expedited negotiations yes, otherwise we'll rely on merger policy as is.

All we need to do it is "want to".

Agreed. We want a joint contract and negotiated list ASAP. Arbitration is for losers.

Both sides will hunker-down for a week to flesh out options and strategy.

We're not hunkered down at all. To us the course is clear. Get a joint contract, get a mutually agreed to list, build a world class airline with world class compensation.


The invitation to negotiate towards that goal is out there.

 

[FDJ2]

You built nothing into your "I've got mine!" LOA to at least include the basic improvements?

Not good.

We respect your contract. Your contract specifies you'll negotiate that. We're willing to help.

 

[CiFIknow]

Call me stupid (and I'm sure some of you will), but didn't the NWA shareholders get a premium in this deal. Yet it seems that NWA is getting treated like they are the ones being "taken over" instead of an actual merger. Not sure how that came about. Maybe Steenland is the pu--y everyone thought he was and Anderson was the mover and shaker in the deal. I know NW is smaller, yet it is uncanny how the upper management at DAL and DALALPA are are calling the shots in the deal. NWA management sold their own for the prospect of what??

 

[NuGuy]

I do not understand the NWA gnashing of teeth. (especially after reading all of LOA 19, it isn't great and it is clearly designed as a short term fix to set a floor for a subsequent joint agreement) As you learn more, or as the LOA leaks out, I think you will agree this was much ado about nothing

Ain't no leaks about it. The full LOA is posted on the NWA ALPA Webboard, and is now being ripped to shreds.

Nice of you guys to try to get a taste of the 787s...glad to see they weren't the "phantom" aircraft as some would believe.

The sweet part? NWA pilots will NEVER fly under this agreement, you all felt it was necessary to come up with rates for aircraft not on your list. Now THERE is planning ahead.

255 RJs....gawd, what are you guys smoking? Heck, I thought NWA scope was bad...sheesh.

Beware...Elmer is coming!

Nu

 

[Noserider76]

100% BS and lip-service. DALPA has lost all faith with NWA guys. This BS is just a feeble attempt at saving face. Actions speak louder than words, and DALPA actions show them in bed with management in an attempt to screw over another pilot union. In fact, these words could have just as easily been printed by management. Sounds just like them. It will bite them back--guaranteed. Their weak a#$ excuses don't cut it-period.

We'll see how efficient this airline operates in the coming months if the BS doesn't get reversed ASAP. They complained about last summers staffing problem. I think we may be even leaner this summer. Not pretty.

DALPA, NWA pilots aren't your partners. You already F'd that one up! Save your welcomes for our EMT.

Schwanker

You need to look at your own MEC leadership when assigning blame for this. You obviously feel very slighted. DALPA is responsible for the whole idea of getting ANYTHING AT ALL from this merger. Your guys, NADA. Your history speaks for itself as to how we would have been treated if the roles were reversed. Confrontation is in-bred in your culture. One of the many reasons I chose to leave there when I did.

I'm hoping it's not too late to kill this idiotic idea of a merger. Maybe you guys can do it for us.

 

[General Lee]

NWA SLI via one of our Captains asking an LEC member...

One of our Captains asked an LEC member on the phone about what NWA was asking for in SLI. Here was the response on our Dalpa forum:


"A month ago when they were arguing SLI, I took the 10 minutes to call my LEC Rep. He told me NWA wanted the top 500 spots on the combined list, due to their Premium Widebody (747) and Big Airbus flying. He said they only considered our 10 777's as "True Widebodys" discounting our 767-400's and all the ER's completely.

Then there would be some sort of 1-1, which would leave the bottom 2,000+ on the combined list 100% Delta. They also wanted to count all their 787 "Firm Orders" but not count our equally firm 777 orders.

Now, I got this from my LEC rep, but I don't know if our LEC's were fully briefed on exactly what was going on in negotiations, or if this was just a rumor running around the MEC, but that's what he told me. When I got done laughing, I told him that is complete lunacy. He agreed, he said the ALPA National guy in the room also agreed they were nuts. He said NWA brought their Arbitration Lawyer to the negotiations, so what does that tell you?"


Kinda Hillarious. But, I guess our guys were LYING.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Heavy Set]

One of our Captains asked an LEC member on the phone about what NWA was asking for in SLI. Here was the response on our Dalpa forum:


"A month ago when they were arguing SLI, I took the 10 minutes to call my LEC Rep. He told me NWA wanted the top 500 spots on the combined list, due to their Premium Widebody (747) and Big Airbus flying. He said they only considered our 10 777's as "True Widebodys" discounting our 767-400's and all the ER's completely.

Then there would be some sort of 1-1, which would leave the bottom 2,000+ on the combined list 100% Delta. They also wanted to count all their 787 "Firm Orders" but not count our equally firm 777 orders.

Now, I got this from my LEC rep, but I don't know if our LEC's were fully briefed on exactly what was going on in negotiations, or if this was just a rumor running around the MEC, but that's what he told me. When I got done laughing, I told him that is complete lunacy. He agreed, he said the ALPA National guy in the room also agreed they were nuts. He said NWA brought their Arbitration Lawyer to the negotiations, so what does that tell you?"


Kinda Hillarious. But, I guess our guys were LYING.

Bye Bye--General Lee

That sure is interesting. I bet the Northwest guys have a different story. Why would they have an arbitration lawyer there in prelim negotiations?

 

[zonker]

Delta pilots sure have done some heavy lifting all right. Pay raises that don't keep up with inflation and massive furloughs in two years. And don't forget the magic beans and the relaxation of scope!

Wow!

 

[IronCityBlue]

Delta pilots sure have done some heavy lifting all right. Pay raises that don't keep up with inflation and massive furloughs in two years. And don't forget the magic beans and the relaxation of scope!

Wow!

There may indeed be furloughs, but if any pilot can avoid that for over 2 years (24 months after merger is complete) then they have a good chance of not getting furloughed. What was relaxed in scope? More 76 seaters I take it? That alone is the only reason needed to automatically vote no.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

There may indeed be furloughs, but if any pilot can avoid that for over 2 years (24 months after merger is complete) then they have a good chance of not getting furloughed. What was relaxed in scope? More 76 seaters I take it? That alone is the only reason needed to automatically vote no.

Yeah a cap at 255 76 seaters. That allows them to order up to 60 more big RJs.

 

[~~~^~~~]

255 RJs....gawd, what are you guys smoking? Heck, I thought NWA scope was bad...sheesh.

Beware...Elmer is coming!

Nu

I agree, and that's 255 B I G G O RJ's.

Who's Elmer? Isn't he the guy that never gets a shot off at the wascally wabbit? Was he a Minnisootan?

Please, please, please, I beg you, get on board an help us negotiate something better.

 

[Superpilot92]

One of our Captains asked an LEC member on the phone about what NWA was asking for in SLI. Here was the response on our Dalpa forum:


"A month ago when they were arguing SLI, I took the 10 minutes to call my LEC Rep. He told me NWA wanted the top 500 spots on the combined list, due to their Premium Widebody (747) and Big Airbus flying. He said they only considered our 10 777's as "True Widebodys" discounting our 767-400's and all the ER's completely.

Then there would be some sort of 1-1, which would leave the bottom 2,000+ on the combined list 100% Delta. They also wanted to count all their 787 "Firm Orders" but not count our equally firm 777 orders.

Now, I got this from my LEC rep, but I don't know if our LEC's were fully briefed on exactly what was going on in negotiations, or if this was just a rumor running around the MEC, but that's what he told me. When I got done laughing, I told him that is complete lunacy. He agreed, he said the ALPA National guy in the room also agreed they were nuts. He said NWA brought their Arbitration Lawyer to the negotiations, so what does that tell you?"


Kinda Hillarious. But, I guess our guys were LYING.

Bye Bye--General Lee

For what its worth thats almost a complete 180 from what i heard from one of our union reps. It sure would be nice to get something on paper signed and presented by both parties to see what the real story was.

 

[tblosser]

For what its worth thats almost a complete 180 from what i heard from one of our union reps. It sure would be nice to get something on paper signed and presented by both parties to see what the real story was.

Agreed!! I want to know why both sides are so secretive about this.

 

[Truckdriver]

There are a couple of NWA guys on this forum that would be pissed if they got a 50% raise and all the Delta guys stapled to the bottom. The simple fact is DALPA realized this deal was going down with or without us and they got us something in the deal. The NWA MEC decided not to get anything for the NWA guys and somehow that is DALPA's fault. If you are pissed that we have this LOA, then your complaints should be directed to your screwed up MEC not DALPA. There was no possible way for DALPA to get anything for NWA pilots unless they agreed on a joint SLI. We can all fight about that later. What DALPA has done is made the job of your disfunctional MEC a bit easier by raising the rates 5%.

 

[Superpilot92]

There are a couple of NWA guys on this forum that would be pissed if they got a 50% raise and all the Delta guys stapled to the bottom.lets be honest there are some of those on each side of the fence The simple fact is DALPA realized this deal was going down with or without us and they got us something in the deal. The NWA MEC decided not to get anything for the NWA guys and somehow that is DALPA's fault. If you are pissed that we have this LOA, then your complaints should be directed to your screwed up MEC not DALPA. There was no possible way for DALPA to get anything for NWA pilots unless they agreed on a joint SLI. We can all fight about that later. What DALPA has done is made the job of your dysfunctional MEC a bit easier by raising the rates 5%.

I have come to the conclusion that a continuation of pointing fingers will get us no where. Its time for a re-due so we can move on and start drinking some beers together as a single unified pilot group! :beer:

Alot of the speculation and rumors would be put to bed if the MECs BOTH worked together and started presenting information together so we dont have the miscommunication. Right now its all he said she said bs. Thats all counter productive and is what causes alot of the problems. CAL and UAL just put out some info, presented and signed by both MEC leaders. I think that is a great idea and by doing that everyone knows where each group stands and there is no speculation.

 

[Jiminmem]

As stated by numerous people, each side seems to be telling their people different things. It might be the same deal but looked at from people with 2 different perspectives. Hopefully these issues can be resolved and we can truely work together for a great airline and a great contract.

This deal will be finalized eventually, that makes it important to get a deal done with each other, need some unity to get the contract we want.

 

[Muskycat]

There are a couple of NWA guys on this forum that would be pissed if they got a 50% raise and all the Delta guys stapled to the bottom. The simple fact is DALPA realized this deal was going down with or without us and they got us something in the deal. The NWA MEC decided not to get anything for the NWA guys and somehow that is DALPA's fault. If you are pissed that we have this LOA, then your complaints should be directed to your screwed up MEC not DALPA. There was no possible way for DALPA to get anything for NWA pilots unless they agreed on a joint SLI. We can all fight about that later. What DALPA has done is made the job of your disfunctional MEC a bit easier by raising the rates 5%.

LOA19 is not intended to be a contract extension. This is very important to point out.

It may take a long time to reach a joint contract. Until we reach a joint contract each pilot group will continue to work under their PWA.
LOA19 does nothing more than assure pay increases in addition to the DAL PWA increases if joint negotiations are extensively prolonged.

Our goal at Delta is to have one joint contract created by NWA and DAL together and go forward together under a new PWA.

 

[Occam's Razor]

We're not hunkered down at all. To us the course is clear. Get a joint contract, get a mutually agreed to list, build a world class airline with world class compensation.

Agree on the items. Disagree on the sequence. You've gotten a bump. I saw your contrails. Nothing...not even a kick-butt contract, will happen until the list is settled. (Is that point open for discussion?) Why that order? As you'll recall, getting the hefty contract in January did us NO GOOD because we didn't have a list.

So it seems to me the first order of business will be negotiations on the list. I'll be watching the DALPA brothers feet to see if they engage on that.

If not, their words will lead to prolonged distrust.

The invitation to negotiate towards that goal is out there.

Copy. List first?

Agreed. We want a joint contract and negotiated list ASAP. Arbitration is for losers.

Agree! :beer:

I'm disappointed our teams didn't even request some form of mediation to help move things along over the last few months. My knowledge of the process indicates both sides were "less than straight-forward" with each other.

Let me know what your reps say about the proper sequence for our tasks.

[Disclaimer: I'll still be watching their feet]

 

[slapstick]

Attitudes out on the line can be completely different than attitudes on this forum. From my experiences, Delta pilots really DO want fairness for everyone, and to get a common contract quickly. They don't expect an SLI that disproportionately favors them. They've already been through a bitter time, and now that things were improving, don't want to go back to working with miserable, hostile coworkers (original DL or original NWA). Of course, that can all change when someone is faced with displacement or furlough... when family life begins to suffer, all congeniality evaporates.

I hope both sides can stay positive and constructive. I've heard many times through the pipeline that some members of NWA's MEC are difficult to negotiate with. Maybe NWA guys are told the same about our guys. I'm curious about exactly what SLI deals were offered, but am trying not to get hung up by it. Let's move forward!

 

[Occam's Razor]

Attitudes out on the line can be completely different than attitudes on this forum. From my experiences, Delta pilots really DO want fairness for everyone, and to get a common contract quickly. They don't expect an SLI that disproportionately favors them. They've already been through a bitter time, and now that things were improving, don't want to go back to working with miserable, hostile coworkers (original DL or original NWA). Of course, that can all change when someone is faced with displacement or furlough... when family life begins to suffer, all congeniality evaporates.

I hope both sides can stay positive and constructive. I've heard many times through the pipeline that some members of NWA's MEC are difficult to negotiate with. Maybe NWA guys are told the same about our guys. I'm curious about exactly what SLI deals were offered, but am trying not to get hung up by it. Let's move forward!

Slappy...you and I are going to be muy simpatico when this lash-up gets together! :beer:

You've got a good handle of the situation, especially this part: "I've heard many times through the pipeline that some members of NWA's MEC are difficult to negotiate with."

Is a pig's butt pork?

Since they're my brothers...I'll try to find something "nice" to say about them.

um....


um...


Got it!

It appears they have opposable thumbs.

 

[tblosser]

Slappy...you and I are going to be muy simpatico when this lash-up gets together! :beer:

You've got a good handle of the situation, especially this part: "I've heard many times through the pipeline that some members of NWA's MEC are difficult to negotiate with."

Is a pig's butt pork?

Since they're my brothers...I'll try to find something "nice" to say about them.

um....


um...


Got it!

It appears they have opposable thumbs.

Now that's funny!!

 

[Flopgut]

You've got a good handle of the situation, especially this part: "I've heard many times through the pipeline that some members of NWA's MEC are difficult to negotiate with."

Is a pig's butt pork?

You've got a saddle broke horse that will come right to you, and you're trying to beat it. And, you're smiling at the same time?! I don't get it.

 

[FDJ2]

Yeah a cap at 255 76 seaters. That allows them to order up to 60 more big RJs.

Actually, it's the DAL limit of 200 plus the NWA lower cap of 55.

 

[FDJ2]

Agree on the items. Disagree on the sequence. You've gotten a bump.

That bump + is there for all of us with a joint contract.

I saw your contrails. Nothing...not even a kick-butt contract, will happen until the list is settled.

Why, there is a certain path to list integration. We can follow ALPA policy and settle the issue in any economic environment. The same is not true of a joint contract. There the path is more fuzzy.


(Is that point open for discussion?) Why that order? As you'll recall, getting the hefty contract in January did us NO GOOD because we didn't have a list.

I think the order is driven by the economics. Of course if we can get it all wrapped up quickly through negotiations, even simultaneously it can be a win-win.

The TFA had value for the company because it settled unknowns and allowed more flexibility to utilize their assets seemlessly. Why, because we all would have agreed to it and rapidly become one pilot group.

Absent a joint contract and a SLI, there is less value in this for the corporation, therefore less for us all.

So it seems to me the first order of business will be negotiations on the list. I'll be watching the DALPA brothers feet to see if they engage on that.

I'll send you a PM on that.

 

[123]

It sure would be nice to get something on paper signed and presented by both parties to see what the real story was.

I agree completely, more written information is good. Unfortunately, our (NWA) union is not going to publish the offers.

To any DAL pilot:
Is DALPA going to publish the offers?

 

[p3flteng]

Frankly,
I don't care what was offered by who or when, that was the past, and it is unlikely to bear fruit for the future... lest that fruit turn to sour grapes.

It is imperative that we all get back to the table and Either:

Hammer the SLI out,

or

hammer it until we can't and get it into arbitration. Dialogue, it must be first and foremost. I have called my rep and asked them to get RE-ENGAGED, and I hope ALL of you will do the same.