Interesting MOA encounter with Viper

[Frisko]

No closer than 1000' to the Pilatus and 600' to the Premiere verified by ACMI and Hud footage.
Care to change your story Mr McCall? What a tool.

 

[Frisko]

Assuming you survive the collision. I'd rethink this position if I were you. Hopefully somone in your element or division is clearing if you're not going to. This is part of the deal when operating in a MOA isn't it?

Deuce-
I'd rethink your position as well, you've made some blaringly naive posts on this thread.
Things are different in a single seat cockpit where you don't have a crew looking for traffic.
I'll offer the opinion as well that maybe you shouldn't criticize a fellow mil. pilot on a public forum unless you have all the facts.

 

[jetjock6]

After reading all of this somehow NOE on goggles seems much safer.:beer:

 

[stonewall]

Deuce-
I'd rethink your position as well, you've made some blaringly naive posts on this thread.
Things are different in a single seat cockpit where you don't have a crew looking for traffic.
I'll offer the opinion as well that maybe you shouldn't criticize a fellow mil. pilot on a public forum unless you have all the facts.

I've been watching this thread degnerate after quickly posting before I knew the facts. Deuce never criticized the F-16 guys. He consistently said IF the F-16 pilots did as the lawyer claimed, they were in the wrong. And he would've been right.

Next, we DO, as single seat guys, clear the area before BFM, ACM, or ACT engagements. Granted, it's mostly via radar, but it's pretty effective. You know when you get a hit whether or not it's a non-player, and it's rare, despite some of the crowing here, that a non-player is ever a factor in any type of fighter engagement.

That's probably what happened here...the idiot wanders into a fight he didn't know was happening, someone saw him on the radar, knocked it off, and averted an incident.

Finally...I know Deuce pretty well. All the fighter guys here can trust me when I say he knows much more about OUR tactics and techniques than we know about HIS. And if you don't think the MC-130 world is heavy into tactics after the last 7 years, then you're wrong.

 

[Caveman]

I've been watching this thread degnerate after quickly posting before I knew the facts. Deuce never criticized the F-16 guys. He consistently said IF the F-16 pilots did as the lawyer claimed, they were in the wrong. And he would've been right.

Next, we DO, as single seat guys, clear the area before BFM, ACM, or ACT engagements. Granted, it's mostly via radar, but it's pretty effective. You know when you get a hit whether or not it's a non-player, and it's rare, despite some of the crowing here, that a non-player is ever a factor in any type of fighter engagement.

That's probably what happened here...the idiot wanders into a fight he didn't know was happening, someone saw him on the radar, knocked it off, and averted an incident.

Finally...I know Deuce pretty well. All the fighter guys here can trust me when I say he knows much more about OUR tactics and techniques than we know about HIS. And if you don't think the MC-130 world is heavy into tactics after the last 7 years, then you're wrong.

Good post Magnum.

 

[ExAF]

Thought So

Here's the Luke AFB side of the story (maybe). From a post on this website (the one which originally posted the story), supposedly from another fighter pilot based at Luke:

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVwebInsiderBlog_IfYouCantHandleMigs_F16s_MOAs_197505-1.html

Let me clear up a few things about this incident.
1. The Pilatus and Raytheon Premier both flew through the middle of a 2 v 2 Tactical Intercept Mission
2. The Pilatus pilot flew right through the Blue Air CAP, leading to the first "intercept". The F-16 came no closer than 1000' to the Pilatus verified by the F-16 HUD tape (with radar lock), ACMI track, and civil radar recording.
3. The "intercept" on the Corporate Image Aviation Jet (Raytheon Premier) ocurred as a result of a fast mover (320 KIAS) in the middle of the fight at 16,500. This happened to be the middle of the Red Air altitude block (5-9s). The F-16 came no closer than 600', verified by HUD tape (with radar lock), ACMI track, and civil radar recording.
4. The accounts by both civil pilots of aggressive maneuvering and 10' and 20' spacing by the F-16 pilot we're verified as false by HUD tape and recorded ACMI data.
5. Thankfully the civilian aircraft were seen prior to becoming a further factor to the F-16 training.
The F-16 training was terminated as a result of the traffic. Total cost to taxpayer at ~ $8000 per flying hour x 4 F-16s x 1.3 = $41,600 lost + cost of bad press received due to civilians flying through the MOA closest to the world's largest F-16 base + cost of investigation ($ amount yet determined).
For everyone's safety, please don't fly through active MOA's. If we end up with a mid air, we all lose! www.seeandavoid.org
posted by Luke Viperpilot on April 3, 2008 (report

Game...Set...Match.

 

[AnimalMother]

Alright, I can't take it anymore...

1. Military fighter pilots are not going to "get used to" looking for civilian clowns in the middle of a hot MOA that are doing 200 knots while we're trying to lead a 4 ship of fighters doing 500 knots plus, whether gas is $4, $10, or $100 a gallon. When the MOA is hot, it's hot. There is a reason why we're there, i.e. we're in there training to ensure we keep this country free. I don't give a flying f*ck what gas costs you, but I'm sure you'd rather have us in there training than you speaking Chinese and having zero ability to buy gas freely at all.

2. You don't have a dog in this fight, you did get that part correct. You don't know the first thing about what we do, and in this case ignorance is not bliss.

3. And frankly you're right about it's not smart flying through a MOA if you do indeed value you're life. Reference bullet #1. I'm sure paying a little more in gas costs certainly outweighs you never flying again right?

Bottom line for all civilian guys out there - don't fly through a hot MOA (legal or not). It's just plain stupid. I grew up flying 172's long before I joined the military so I have all the respect for GA. And I also fly for the airlines. But don't be an idiot.

Gutsiest post I have ever seen Mav. China already owns us.

 

[Frisko]

Granted, it's mostly via radar, but it's pretty effective. You know when you get a hit whether or not it's a non-player

Must be nice (reference profile)

Agreed, we clear the best we can, with or without radar. Still a big problem.

Noted that Deuce used the big "IF". I think random hypothesizing still hurts the incident pilot's cause, but I guess that's the name of the game here.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

My thought is he might have been trying to get his tail number or letting the guy know he is causing problems. I truely don't think he was trying to be a danger.

If the F-16 pilot was being dangerous then he should be punished.

I don't get this..... getting his tail number?

The TCAS in civ aircraft tell pilots to get away from the threat... so the closer the tactical jet gets the harder the civ pilot tries to get away...

What would the tactical jet pilot do with his tail number? Call 1-800-FAA-NARC?

I call BS on the F-16 guy for pursueing, IF that is the facts... He should've just flown away....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Gutsiest post I have ever seen Mav. China already owns us.

He's AF not Navy... so its Doug Masters...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Alright, I can't take it anymore...

Stand back... Scrapdog can't take it no more!!

1. Military fighter pilots are not going to "get used to" looking for civilian clowns in the middle of a hot MOA that are doing 200 knots while we're trying to lead a 4 ship of fighters doing 500 knots plus, whether gas is $4, $10, or $100 a gallon. When the MOA is hot, it's hot. There is a reason why we're there, i.e. we're in there training to ensure we keep this country free. I don't give a flying f*ck what gas costs you, but I'm sure you'd rather have us in there training than you speaking Chinese and having zero ability to buy gas freely at all.

Damm liberal Chinese loving MOA insurgents!! Ya shoulda splashed 'em with your jet with Chinese made parts!!! They are degrating our free loving country!! Forcing thier chinese ways... barging through MOAs! But you tell em Scrapdog on your computer with chinese parts!

Question? Did you joing the Armed Services cause you wanted a cool job or you need aggrandizement?

Why is it many if not most MIL guys serve with humility?

2. You don't have a dog in this fight, you did get that part correct. You don't know the first thing about what we do, and in this case ignorance is not bliss.

Who let the (Scrap)dog out? Who? Who?

No idea what you do? shhhhhhhh secrets! Do you have a Top Secret Clerance? Can you tell us? Maybe? Just a hint?

3. And frankly you're right about it's not smart flying through a MOA if you do indeed value you're life. Reference bullet #1. I'm sure paying a little more in gas costs certainly outweighs you never flying again right?

Today on Jerry Springer.... Scrapdog speaks out!

Bottom line for all civilian guys out there - don't fly through a hot MOA (legal or not). It's just plain stupid. I grew up flying 172's long before I joined the military so I have all the respect for GA. And I also fly for the airlines. But don't be an idiot.

So... Civilian guys should not be idiots cause you flew C172s long before you were a MIL pilot?

I think what will really change those idiots is the fact that you also fly for the airlines.


Magnum.... might I suggest you proof read his stuff before he posts....

 

[MJG]

You totally missed my point. I do not for one second condone any GA pilot flying through an active MOA, I agree it's one of the more dangerous things you can do in an aircraft.

All I'm saying is that those of you who fly military aircraft in MOA's should expect these kinds of incidents to not only continue to happen, but to increase in frequency.

I don't know jack about what you guys do in there. What I do know is the mentality of these private aircraft owners. We're talking about men who have far more money than they do common sense. I'm telling you right now that these men and their high priced, high performance aircraft are going to continue cutting through active MOAs just to save a few bucks on their fuel bills. Why do you think these two clowns were flying VFR in the first place?

I don't get it either, if you can afford a PC-12 or Eclipse, then why the heck are you worried about a couple extra bucks in fuel costs? But I'm telling you, I've been around these people, I know how they think and operate, and they're some of the cheapest people you will ever meet. They pull into an FBO with their high priced turbine and totally stiff the line guys who are busting their butts to accomodate them. Why, because they are cheap A-holes, that's why.

I totally agree, their SHOULD be more airspace designated as restricted. Sadly until that happens, this is going to be a problem. The way to change it is to embrace your fellow civilian pilots who happen to SHARE you outrage. They are the ones who belong to the alphabet groups, NBAA, AOPA, SAA, EAA, etc.

Any time the government proposes to restrict airspace in this country, it is these groups who are the loudest to oppose it. Believe it or not, some members of these groups do not march in lock step with the belief that we should not give up more airspace to the military. Some members are educated enough to realize the enormous handicap we have placed on our service personelle by restricting their training times and spaces.

To wrap it all up: Some of us are on your side of this arguement!

 

[popgoesbubble]

Well after reading the Air Force report here looks like Mr. McCall is gonna have some explaining to do. I hope the Air Force sends him the Bill for the Tax payers money he wasted for flying like an Idiot.

If you get a chance take a look at his website www.patrickMcCall.com looks like he's doing pretty well if he owns his own PC-12 I'm sure he has a nice home somewhere in the Newport Beach area. I say send him the Bill. He's also on AM 870 where he give legal advice to callers maybe we should all be call him and give him flying advice about flying thru Hot MOA's.

I think the arguement about being able to fly thru MOA's is Weak it's just like pilots flying into uncontrolled airfields with no radios and doing pattern work. Is it Legal? Yes Is it safe and Smart? Hell No!

How many of you have gone into a uncontrolled airport done everything by the book set up your pattern entry with the other aircraft in the vicinity only to get cut off by some fool thats not talking to anyone and forced to do a go around?

If Mr. McCall is a "Highly Experienced" Pilot as he claims he should have filed an IFR flight plan like the rest of the Professionals out there

 

[Future SNA]

What a D-Bag. I mean for Christ's sake is 600' even considered formation flying? Sounds like stuff they do in MC-130 land...."yup, I can just make out there's another plane out there...yeah buddy...we're formation flying now."

 

[Bjammin]

I don't get this..... getting his tail number?

The TCAS in civ aircraft tell pilots to get away from the threat... so the closer the tactical jet gets the harder the civ pilot tries to get away...

What would the tactical jet pilot do with his tail number? Call 1-800-FAA-NARC?

I call BS on the F-16 guy for pursueing, IF that is the facts... He should've just flown away....

Yes, their tail number. You can find where they came from or going, call the FBO, and have them leave a message on the windscreen. We've done it a couple of times so they may think twice about doing it again.

They have all been C-172's so I don't think TCAS was a player.

It's just one more, little way we can get the word out that flying through an active MOA is dangerous.



ONCE AGAIN, is anyone willing to call the users of the MOAs that they are going to be going through???