Did ALPA get religion on alter egos?

[PCL_128]

I don't know about Comair, but ASA did have scope over its flying when I hired in.

Yes, scope over OH and EV code. Big difference.

 

[IronCityBlue]

CMR and ASA has CMR and ASA scope, respectively. Neither was ever violated. TSA has TSA scope, which was violated according to most common sense interpretations of their contract. However, They didn't have 100% holding company scope, just 100% TSA scope. They got screwed by an arbitrator because they had a small hole in their scope.

Mesa didn't need to file a Freedom grievance, because they settled their contract to finally gain 100% holding company scope, thus eliminating their management's ability to whipsaw them. They can still be whipsawed by Delta and United (and other) managements of course, but they never had any scope with them.

The ownership of all outsourced flying rests with the companies and pilot groups that allow that flying to be outsourced. CMR, ASA, TSA and Mesa don't own one minute of their Delta, United, USAirways, American or any other flying. Never did. Legacy managements and/or legacy pilots are perfectly free to call in that flying any time they want when your company's outsource ACMI contract is up.

You have every right to all ASA flying, but no right to any Delta flying. Sadly, you don't even have the right to all SkyWest flying until and unless you negtiate 100% holding company scope. If you do, you will then own all SkyWest flying, which means all EV and OO code. You will never, EVER own one seat or one minute of DL or UA code.

You fly jets painted in someone else's colors by the temporary grace and permission of other company managers and pilot groups. Any outsource provider is free to break away from those terms and go it alone, ala Independance Air.

 

[PCL_128]

Thank God someone around here has a brain in his head!!!

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL,

Do we not agree that ALPA has lost it's way on alter ego?

Instead of looking for political excuses to avoid unity, we need to look for leverage to protect unity.

EV code was not much, but it all became DAL code when ASA was acquired. ASA should have been treated as an acquired airline, because it was. As far as merger and fragmentation language, ALPA National attorney's drafted the contracts. The changes to the CBL's at D ALPA's behest undermined the position of the ASA pilots by pre emptively removing the definition of "operational integration."

ALPA did in fact lose it's religion and in the process lost its legitimacy. Since then ALPA has had five failed representational votes.

ALPA is very nearly suffering from irrelevance. The only way to turn this around is to remember that a union's primary purpose has to be to bring employees together to bargain collectively.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL,

Do we not agree that ALPA has lost it's way on alter ego?

I don't even agree with your use of the term "alter-ego" in relation to feeder carriers being used in accordance with approved scope language. ASA in not an "alter-ego," it's a capacity provider that operates in accordance with DAL scope that the pilots approved.

Now, if your question is whether I think we've made a mistake in how we've negotiated scope language that allows this outsourcing, then yes, I would agree. But throwing around words like "alter-ego" that don't belong in this discussion is part of that whole lack of political acumen thing I was telling Joe about.

 

[~~~^~~~]

OK, ASA is an approved "Alter Ego."

Still it is what it is. It performs the 737-200 and 727 flying that SWA did not pick up. (I give AirTran credit for actually beating Delta in some markets) Either way, it greatly harms Delta pilots.

A guy who commits suicide is equally dead, whether he did it to himself or had it done by a third party.

 

[PCL_128]

OK, ASA is an approved "Alter Ego."

Use of the term "alter-ego" in these cases isn't appropriate, and detracts from true alter-ego situations. Dan Ford and the RJDC wankers liked to use it because it sounded more ominous. Like I said, bad politics. Things will never get accomplished with this sort of political blustering.

 

[regionaltard]

Use of the term "alter-ego" in these cases isn't appropriate, and detracts from true alter-ego situations. Dan Ford and the RJDC wankers liked to use it because it sounded more ominous. Like I said, bad politics. Things will never get accomplished with this sort of political blustering.

The "approved alter-ego" mentioned elsewhere & implied by you is an oxymoron. That's why USAir was forced to underbid a "regional" airline in order to "capture" EMB 190 flying that it allegedly already owned. The only practical difference between TSA flying being done by GoJet and Delta flying being farmed out to the DCI portfolio is that one group had the gun stuck in its face while the other put the gun to its own head.

 

[N2264J]

Use of the term "alter-ego" in these cases isn't appropriate, and detracts from true alter-ego situations.

Of course it's appropriate. This is what alter ego policy used to say after ALPA got it's clock cleaned by Frank Lorenzo:

B. ALTER EGO POLICY
SOURCE ‑ Board 1980

1. When the management or stockholders of one airline company form another company for the purpose of creating a separate airline entity, it shall be called an Alter Ego company for the
purposes of this section.

2. ALPA will oppose the formation of Alter Ego airline companies and will initiate litigation at every appropriate level to either block their formation or, in the alternative, establish for collective bargaining purposes that the Alter Ego company and the original company are one and the same.

You're familiar with Frank Lorenzo aren't you? Anytime pilot groups are put in a position of bidding on the flying they do, it fits the classic definition of alter ego and ALPA is in with it up to their eyeballs.

To now feign outrage at the British Airways situation is just laughable.

 

[PCL_128]

Did you actually read that, N2264J? It basically repeats my own definition and doesn't back up yours at all. GoJet is an alter-ego. ASA is not.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

and the squabbling continues......

another version of As the Air Line Pilot Profession Turns....

Stayed tuned for next episodes exciting build up to next months USAPA crescendo!!!

 

[JoeMerchant]

and the squabbling continues......

another version of As the Air Line Pilot Profession Turns....

Stayed tuned for next episodes exciting build up to next months USAPA crescendo!!!

.....this message brought to you by ALPA....the union that blames it's membership for it's own failures.....

....pass the popcorn please.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

.....this message brought to you by ALPA....the union that blames it's membership for it's own failures.....

....pass the popcorn please.....

Hey butter fingers....

Stop watching your beloved hero's Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson....and answer this:

Why did you get involved in ALPA? And what happened?

A. Did ALPA not meet your expectations?

B. Did ALPA suddenly have a massive paradigm shift and morph into a totally different organization?

C. A and B

 

[N2264J]

A few years ago I was scratching my head over the dues money my union had to spend to defend against a frivolous lawsuit filed by a bunch of booger-eating RJDC losers...who were members of the same union!

Do you have daughters? The reason I asked is that whenever you get angry, you start talking like a 10 year old girl.

Of course, we could not have sued for Duty of Fair Representation if we weren't members of the same union. That is self evident.

But if you look at the ratio of lawyers involved, I suspect ALPA outspent the RJDC by about 10 to 1 or multi millions of dollars. Try to think of it as a totally unnesessary expense for ALPA brought about by Duane Woerth and his gang of corrupt mainline cronies as they mismanage a once proud organization into the ditch.

Here's my projection for you - all of ALPA's foot stomping over British Airways will come to nothing. BA management knows that ALPA is complicit with US airline management in facilitating the alter ego debacle in this country.

Where do you think BA got the idea that job security is for sale by the mainliners? All airline managments go to the same seminar and talk amongst themselves.

The informational picketing is just show business.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Do you have daughters? The reason I asked is that whenever you get angry, you start talking like a 10 year old girl.

Although not an excuse... if you act like a 10 year old..prepare to be treated like one..

Here's my projection for you - all of ALPA's foot stomping over British Airways will come to nothing.

And yet ALPA is dumb enough to do it... if they'd only listen to you...

BA management knows that ALPA is complicit with US airline management in facilitating the alter ego debacle in this country. Where do you think BA got the idea that job security is for sale by the mainliners? All airline managments go to the same seminar and talk amongst themselves.

Right.... cause alter ego isn't going on in other parts of the world... all the world is looking to the US..

The informational picketing is just show business.

And what was the RJDC?

A righteous act only understood by a few... that is called a cult...

 

[Moustache]

IT has to start sometime....

Did the US get religion on slavery too late?

Did the US get religion on womens rights? What about that old woman who wanted to vote all her life only to die just before it became law?

A stretch maybe????

 

[dooork]

So ASA and CMR scope didn't cover ASA and CMR flying....but Mesa and TSA had scope language that covered their flying......This I got'a hear.....

What is the status of any TSA scope grievance regarding GoJet? Did Mesa file a Freedom grievance?
Isn't the "ownership" of the TSA/GoJet flying really that of their mainline partner according to you...???

The MESA pilots paid dearly to get Freedom back on our list! This was part of our last (2nd) contract many pricks dont understand....among others. I would also like you to know that only about half of those pilots were MESA the other half were furloghed USAir and United pilots....but that point always seems to get lost.

 

[iflyformoney!]

Alter Ego - GOJet aka Lindberg?

B. ALTER EGO POLICY
SOURCE ‑ Board 1980

1. When the management or stockholders of one airline company form another company for the purpose of creating a separate airline entity, it shall be called an Alter Ego company for the
purposes of this section.

2. ALPA will oppose the formation of Alter Ego airline companies and will initiate litigation at every appropriate level to either block their formation or, in the alternative, establish for collective bargaining purposes that the Alter Ego company and the original company are one and the same.

Just to clarify,

TSA Holdings, the owner of TSA, formed GOGET.

TSA apparently was a separate entity owned by TSA Holdings at the time the last contract was signed (So the arbitrator said). The TSA MEC did not have any knowledge of this when the contact was signed.

THEREFORE, TSA had no scope to flying performed by TSA Holding.

GOGET was formed with a half hearted (5 year longevity) attempt to bring TSA pilots (some with 20 years) to the new airline. This was all done during a period of very bad (to be kind) ALPA-TSA mangement relations.

Not many line pilots from the TSA list went over to GOGET. Many since have joined the joined the group including many mainline furloughs. Apparently, they didn't see a problem with working for an alter-ego.

There was a very vigerous campaign led by the TSA MEC to bring GOGET back to the TSA seniority list. It actually led to a vote of the TSA ALPA membership.

This is were it all get very confused. ALPA national said that the new scope was the cat's meow. The MEC were silent. The pilots thought that the vote was to force a final offer.

The pilots voted NO in resounding fashion (90-10).

The company said; Sorry, last chance, over, done.

I never heard of any appeals, GOGET went IBT,

 

[JoeMerchant]

B. ALTER EGO POLICY
SOURCE ‑ Board 1980

1. When the management or stockholders of one airline company form another company for the purpose of creating a separate airline entity, it shall be called an Alter Ego company for the
purposes of this section.

2. ALPA will oppose the formation of Alter Ego airline companies and will initiate litigation at every appropriate level to either block their formation or, in the alternative, establish for collective bargaining purposes that the Alter Ego company and the original company are one and the same.

Just to clarify,

TSA Holdings, the owner of TSA, formed GOGET.

TSA apparently was a separate entity owned by TSA Holdings at the time the last contract was signed (So the arbitrator said). The TSA MEC did not have any knowledge of this when the contact was signed.

THEREFORE, TSA had no scope to flying performed by TSA Holding.

GOGET was formed with a half hearted (5 year longevity) attempt to bring TSA pilots (some with 20 years) to the new airline. This was all done during a period of very bad (to be kind) ALPA-TSA mangement relations.

Not many line pilots from the TSA list went over to GOGET. Many since have joined the joined the group including many mainline furloughs. Apparently, they didn't see a problem with working for an alter-ego.

There was a very vigerous campaign led by the TSA MEC to bring GOGET back to the TSA seniority list. It actually led to a vote of the TSA ALPA membership.

This is were it all get very confused. ALPA national said that the new scope was the cat's meow. The MEC were silent. The pilots thought that the vote was to force a final offer.

The pilots voted NO in resounding fashion (90-10).

The company said; Sorry, last chance, over, done.

I never heard of any appeals, GOGET went IBT,

...very good point...In this case I believe ALPA did the right thing in advising that the TA be voted in with the scope language....The pilots voted no because of the belief that there would be a better offer....Sometimes the final offer is "final".....Democracy is a double edged sword....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

...Democracy is a double edged sword....

Got a better idea?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Got a better idea?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic

 

[IronCityBlue]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic

If only they would teach that in school these days. Everyone's all into mob rule democracy, 50% + 1, and yes including ALPA, that it becomes much more difficult for people to avoid being divided and conquered. Just look at all the morons who still, to this day, lament that Gore got more votes but isn't president. They really think that's how it does and should work. Sad.

 

[JoeMerchant]

If only they would teach that in school these days. Everyone's all into mob rule democracy, 50% + 1, and yes including ALPA, that it becomes much more difficult for people to avoid being divided and conquered. Just look at all the morons who still, to this day, lament that Gore got more votes but isn't president. They really think that's how it does and should work. Sad.

Hey we agree on something.....

:beer:

 

[IronCityBlue]

Hey we agree on something.....

:beer:

:beer: Cheers brother! Here's to figuring out a way to work together to make things better, as fellow pilots as well as citizens.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic

The United States of America is one of the oldest constitutional republics in the world.

For example, "the United States relies on representative democracy, but [its] system of government is much more complex than that. [It is] not a simple representative democracy, but a constitutional republic in which majority rule is tempered by minority rights protected by law.

Joe-

as a minority... you wanted your rights OVER the rights of the majority. not in accord with. Your problem is... you don't know how to make that work, yet you blame ALPA for not making it work...


It seems that USAPA is trying to become the anti-constitutional democracy, as noted, in the first paragraphs of your link. Why are they regressing?

A judicial system within ALPA as Fins suggested? That would lack credibility if the panel was ALPA pilots. What about Nicalau? Objective?

It seems to me if we want to advance ALPA to the next level of representation.....should we prove to ourselves we can participate in the current realm.

Said another way.... before we insist that we can fly jets, shouldn't we prove we can solo?

Finally, realistically, of the listed forms of gov't on the right margin, and considering participation levels at ALPA, which one applies?

 

[PCL_128]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic

Newsflash: that's exactly what ALPA is.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Newsflash: that's exactly what ALPA is.

The context of this debate was regarding the TSA vote on bringing GoJets onto the list at TSA....Rez promotes this "democracy"....In this case, ALPA was right and the pilots IMO were wrong....They should have taken the deal...which ALPA advocated.....

TSA and all of us would be better off now with a single list at the TSA property....this was "democracy" in action....

 

[PCL_128]

I agree with all of that, but it doesn't change the fact that ALPA is a constitutional republic.

 

[regionaltard]

Newsflash: that's exactly what ALPA is.

One that's remarkably short on republican virtues.

 

[spinproof]

I agree with all of that, but it doesn't change the fact that ALPA is a constitutional republic.

Are you drunk? You're drinking aren't you!