Did ALPA get religion on alter egos?

[Moustache]

IT has to start sometime....

Did the US get religion on slavery too late?

Did the US get religion on womens rights? What about that old woman who wanted to vote all her life only to die just before it became law?

A stretch maybe????

 

[dooork]

So ASA and CMR scope didn't cover ASA and CMR flying....but Mesa and TSA had scope language that covered their flying......This I got'a hear.....

What is the status of any TSA scope grievance regarding GoJet? Did Mesa file a Freedom grievance?
Isn't the "ownership" of the TSA/GoJet flying really that of their mainline partner according to you...???

The MESA pilots paid dearly to get Freedom back on our list! This was part of our last (2nd) contract many pricks dont understand....among others. I would also like you to know that only about half of those pilots were MESA the other half were furloghed USAir and United pilots....but that point always seems to get lost.

 

[iflyformoney!]

Alter Ego - GOJet aka Lindberg?

B. ALTER EGO POLICY
SOURCE ‑ Board 1980

1. When the management or stockholders of one airline company form another company for the purpose of creating a separate airline entity, it shall be called an Alter Ego company for the
purposes of this section.

2. ALPA will oppose the formation of Alter Ego airline companies and will initiate litigation at every appropriate level to either block their formation or, in the alternative, establish for collective bargaining purposes that the Alter Ego company and the original company are one and the same.

Just to clarify,

TSA Holdings, the owner of TSA, formed GOGET.

TSA apparently was a separate entity owned by TSA Holdings at the time the last contract was signed (So the arbitrator said). The TSA MEC did not have any knowledge of this when the contact was signed.

THEREFORE, TSA had no scope to flying performed by TSA Holding.

GOGET was formed with a half hearted (5 year longevity) attempt to bring TSA pilots (some with 20 years) to the new airline. This was all done during a period of very bad (to be kind) ALPA-TSA mangement relations.

Not many line pilots from the TSA list went over to GOGET. Many since have joined the joined the group including many mainline furloughs. Apparently, they didn't see a problem with working for an alter-ego.

There was a very vigerous campaign led by the TSA MEC to bring GOGET back to the TSA seniority list. It actually led to a vote of the TSA ALPA membership.

This is were it all get very confused. ALPA national said that the new scope was the cat's meow. The MEC were silent. The pilots thought that the vote was to force a final offer.

The pilots voted NO in resounding fashion (90-10).

The company said; Sorry, last chance, over, done.

I never heard of any appeals, GOGET went IBT,

 

[JoeMerchant]

B. ALTER EGO POLICY
SOURCE ‑ Board 1980

1. When the management or stockholders of one airline company form another company for the purpose of creating a separate airline entity, it shall be called an Alter Ego company for the
purposes of this section.

2. ALPA will oppose the formation of Alter Ego airline companies and will initiate litigation at every appropriate level to either block their formation or, in the alternative, establish for collective bargaining purposes that the Alter Ego company and the original company are one and the same.

Just to clarify,

TSA Holdings, the owner of TSA, formed GOGET.

TSA apparently was a separate entity owned by TSA Holdings at the time the last contract was signed (So the arbitrator said). The TSA MEC did not have any knowledge of this when the contact was signed.

THEREFORE, TSA had no scope to flying performed by TSA Holding.

GOGET was formed with a half hearted (5 year longevity) attempt to bring TSA pilots (some with 20 years) to the new airline. This was all done during a period of very bad (to be kind) ALPA-TSA mangement relations.

Not many line pilots from the TSA list went over to GOGET. Many since have joined the joined the group including many mainline furloughs. Apparently, they didn't see a problem with working for an alter-ego.

There was a very vigerous campaign led by the TSA MEC to bring GOGET back to the TSA seniority list. It actually led to a vote of the TSA ALPA membership.

This is were it all get very confused. ALPA national said that the new scope was the cat's meow. The MEC were silent. The pilots thought that the vote was to force a final offer.

The pilots voted NO in resounding fashion (90-10).

The company said; Sorry, last chance, over, done.

I never heard of any appeals, GOGET went IBT,

...very good point...In this case I believe ALPA did the right thing in advising that the TA be voted in with the scope language....The pilots voted no because of the belief that there would be a better offer....Sometimes the final offer is "final".....Democracy is a double edged sword....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

...Democracy is a double edged sword....

Got a better idea?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Got a better idea?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic

 

[IronCityBlue]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic

If only they would teach that in school these days. Everyone's all into mob rule democracy, 50% + 1, and yes including ALPA, that it becomes much more difficult for people to avoid being divided and conquered. Just look at all the morons who still, to this day, lament that Gore got more votes but isn't president. They really think that's how it does and should work. Sad.

 

[JoeMerchant]

If only they would teach that in school these days. Everyone's all into mob rule democracy, 50% + 1, and yes including ALPA, that it becomes much more difficult for people to avoid being divided and conquered. Just look at all the morons who still, to this day, lament that Gore got more votes but isn't president. They really think that's how it does and should work. Sad.

Hey we agree on something.....

:beer:

 

[IronCityBlue]

Hey we agree on something.....

:beer:

:beer: Cheers brother! Here's to figuring out a way to work together to make things better, as fellow pilots as well as citizens.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic

The United States of America is one of the oldest constitutional republics in the world.

For example, "the United States relies on representative democracy, but [its] system of government is much more complex than that. [It is] not a simple representative democracy, but a constitutional republic in which majority rule is tempered by minority rights protected by law.

Joe-

as a minority... you wanted your rights OVER the rights of the majority. not in accord with. Your problem is... you don't know how to make that work, yet you blame ALPA for not making it work...


It seems that USAPA is trying to become the anti-constitutional democracy, as noted, in the first paragraphs of your link. Why are they regressing?

A judicial system within ALPA as Fins suggested? That would lack credibility if the panel was ALPA pilots. What about Nicalau? Objective?

It seems to me if we want to advance ALPA to the next level of representation.....should we prove to ourselves we can participate in the current realm.

Said another way.... before we insist that we can fly jets, shouldn't we prove we can solo?

Finally, realistically, of the listed forms of gov't on the right margin, and considering participation levels at ALPA, which one applies?

 

[PCL_128]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic

Newsflash: that's exactly what ALPA is.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Newsflash: that's exactly what ALPA is.

The context of this debate was regarding the TSA vote on bringing GoJets onto the list at TSA....Rez promotes this "democracy"....In this case, ALPA was right and the pilots IMO were wrong....They should have taken the deal...which ALPA advocated.....

TSA and all of us would be better off now with a single list at the TSA property....this was "democracy" in action....

 

[PCL_128]

I agree with all of that, but it doesn't change the fact that ALPA is a constitutional republic.

 

[regionaltard]

Newsflash: that's exactly what ALPA is.

One that's remarkably short on republican virtues.

 

[spinproof]

I agree with all of that, but it doesn't change the fact that ALPA is a constitutional republic.

Are you drunk? You're drinking aren't you!