US Airways Management and America West Pilots to Open Separate Negotiations

[Flybywire44]

*deleted to preserve professionalism*

 

[jbDC9]

We are blessed to have a true know-it-all on this forum.

There is nothing PCL doesn't know everything about.

Just let it go man... I asked a simple question, PCL responded with a simple answer. What's wrong with that?

 

[waveflyer]

Joe-
the point still stands that most recent hires at AWA are far more experienced than those at the bottom of AAA's list were when they got hired in the mid and late 80's. Again, noone has looked out for young pilot's seniority as scope has been released time and again- but then AAA want's credit for their time when they flew Fokker's and 146's? ? Guess what? Most AWA guys flew those a/c too (or their replacements)- they just had to fly them for "regional" airlines where they didn't have a right to any seniority grab. Excuse us, if, after 9/11, BK, scope, and age 65 if no young pilot feels that bad for pilots who failed time and again to think long term. Maybe you should have been leading. In the meantime- seniority is how YOU created it. Now you want to mold it to fit your needs b/c you've been on the losing end of it?- Piss off. It doesn't work that way.

You'd do much better to use your credibility and lead this country towards a national list.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe-
the point still stands that most recent hires at AWA are far more experienced than those at the bottom of AAA's list were when they got hired in the mid and late 80's. Again, noone has looked out for young pilot's seniority as scope has been released time and again- but then AAA want's credit for their time when they flew Fokker's and 146's? ? Guess what? Most AWA guys flew those a/c too (or their replacements)- they just had to fly them for "regional" airlines where they didn't have a right to any seniority grab. Excuse us, if, after 9/11, BK, scope, and age 65 if no young pilot feels that bad for pilots who failed time and again to think long term. Maybe you should have been leading. In the meantime- seniority is how YOU created it. Now you want to mold it to fit your needs b/c you've been on the losing end of it?- Piss off. It doesn't work that way.

You'd do much better to use your credibility and lead this country towards a national list.

I think a national seniority system is absolutely necessary....however your post shows why it will never happen.....YOUR vision of seniority and MINE don't match.....

Look at the AWA/USAIR, DAL/NWA, and AA/TWA seniority issues.....FAIR is only in the eyes of the beholder.....

Of course as long as we have this problem we will be divided.....

 

[PCL_128]

Very true. Each pilot has a different definition of when seniority should start on a hypothetical NSL. This is why it will never happen, no matter how much you want it to, waveflyer.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Very true. Each pilot has a different definition of when seniority should start on a hypothetical NSL. This is why it will never happen, no matter how much you want it to, waveflyer.

....on that we agree.....However keeping that in mind.....don't expect much "unity" when there are corporate deals that involve 2 separate pilot groups.....

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I guess the voting starts today? Good luck to all of you....I hope you get what you want.

Wonder what the actual percentage of pilots who do vote will be?

We all know that pilots have a poor record of union participation.

 

[PCL_128]

....on that we agree.....However keeping that in mind.....don't expect much "unity" when there are corporate deals that involve 2 separate pilot groups.....

I don't expect much unity in those situations. Each side is looking out for their own best interests. That's why ALPA merger policy requires binding arbitration if the two sides can't reach a compromise. But apparently there is a dictionary shortage in the land of AAA, because no one there seems to understand the definition of the term "binding."

 

[PCL_128]

I guess the voting starts today? Good luck to all of you....I hope you get what you want.

Wonder what the actual percentage of pilots who do vote will be?

We all know that pilots have a poor record of union participation.

I expect that the West pilots will have something approaching 95% participation, because they stand to get completely raped if uSAPa wins. That's providing some good motivation. I think you'll find that a lot less of the East pilot group actually goes through with it, though. It will be a close vote.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't expect much unity in those situations. Each side is looking out for their own best interests. That's why ALPA merger policy requires binding arbitration if the two sides can't reach a compromise. But apparently there is a dictionary shortage in the land of AAA, because no one there seems to understand the definition of the term "binding."

....wasn't the Alaska arbitration "binding"....I guess ALPA can't find the dictionary either....

Face it....people and organizations are going to use every means to "look out for their own best interests".....Lawsuit, decertification, recall......We will all do what is in our own best interests....

This is something you ALPA cheerleaders seem to want to ignore in your cheers.....But you can't ignore it....

 

[TWA Dude]

....wasn't the Alaska arbitration "binding"....

Yes, and that's why it's still in effect. I wonder why the Alaska pilots didn't just change unions to nullify the arbitration? It's all so simple...

We will all do what is in our own best interests....

No, YOU do. Some of us actually do what's right whether we stand to benefit or not. Your attempt to justify unethical behavior says a lot about you.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yes, and that's why it's still in effect. I wonder why the Alaska pilots didn't just change unions to nullify the arbitration? It's all so simple...No, YOU do. Some of us actually do what's right whether we stand to benefit or not. Your attempt to justify unethical behavior says a lot about you.

1. But ALPA filed a lawsuit to overturn a "binding" arbitration....Pot meet kettle....

2. I don't have a dog in the fight.....just finding the irony amusing....

3. You were at TWA....Did the APA and American pilots "do what was right"? How did that work for the TWA guys and gals?

4. Are you really going to tell me that the majority of airline pilots don't look out for number 1 first? Coming from a TWA pilot I find that surprising.....

 

[cactusboy53]

1. But ALPA filed a lawsuit to overturn a "binding" arbitration....Pot meet kettle....

Apples and oranges Joe. ALPA is the CBA for Alaska pilots, and is obligated to represent that pilot group against the employer (Alaska Airlines).

ALPA National's job is to remain neutral when two or more ALPA carriers merge. The ALPA Merger policy gives a framework to negotiate, mediate and finally arbitrate a combined list. Further, ALPA National must then ACCEPT THE LIST, DELIVER THE LIST AND DEFEND THE LIST. So far, they have accomplished 2/3 of those conditions.

It would be fair to say that the east pilots have enjoyed the attrition and delays as a DIRECT result of Prater and the BOD's inaction and committee work.

 

[JoeMerchant]

1. But ALPA filed a lawsuit to overturn a "binding" arbitration....Pot meet kettle....

Apples and oranges Joe. ALPA is the CBA for Alaska pilots, and is obligated to represent that pilot group against the employer (Alaska Airlines).

ALPA National's job is to remain neutral when two or more ALPA carriers merge. The ALPA Merger policy gives a framework to negotiate, mediate and finally arbitrate a combined list. Further, ALPA National must then ACCEPT THE LIST, DELIVER THE LIST AND DEFEND THE LIST. So far, they have accomplished 2/3 of those conditions.

It would be fair to say that the east pilots have enjoyed the attrition and delays as a DIRECT result of Prater and the BOD's inaction and committee work.

....doesn't alter the fact the term "binding" is subjective and any side is free to try and overturn "binding"........

 

[TWA Dude]

1. But ALPA filed a lawsuit to overturn a "binding" arbitration....Pot meet kettle....

I didn't file any lawsuit.

2. I don't have a dog in the fight.....just finding the irony amusing....

You must find the Arab Muslim vs. Black Muslim war in Sudan amusing as well. Takes all kinds.

3. You were at TWA....Did the APA and American pilots "do what was right"?

No. What's your point?

4. Are you really going to tell me that the majority of airline pilots don't look out for number 1 first? Coming from a TWA pilot I find that surprising.....

I speak for myself. I believe ALPA Merger Policy is the fairest path for integrating pilot seniority, come what may. I said this long before the USAir thing came along and I'll say it again in the future if need be.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

It would be fair to say that the east pilots have enjoyed the attrition and delays as a DIRECT result of Prater and the BOD's inaction and committee work.

...soooo...can we expect to see a DFR lawsuit against ALPA in the near future?

Remember the Duke/Spellacy lawsuit against ALPA? ALPA ended up selling one of their buildings to pay for that one.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA sold that building because of general cost cuts, not just because of the Duke/Spellacy settlement. The building would have been sold anyway. Besides, the building still says Air Line Pilots Association on the front and the DC office is still occupying an entire floor.