SWA/ATA revisited

[Tanker Clown]

For all the ATA guys who think that a staple is a crummy deal: If it's such a bad deal, why not take your services and walk. Getting stapled is one option. But, this is America, and you can always take your ball and go home. You have a certain skill set that would be valuable many places, not just at the bottom of the SWA seniority list.

 

[Dan Roman]

Dave at al,

I like all the ATA pilots that I have met on our jump seats. I think you have a great group of guys who have gotten a bad deal. The question in my mind is this. What do the SWA guys gain if we were to buy ATA and integrate the pilots? It seems like a junior schedule at SWA is better than a senior one at ATA. So if you were pay protected and placed on the bottom of the list is that unfair? Fair and equitable is the language in the bill. What does that mean to you? From my perspective as a mid level FO all I do is lose if ATA guys get placed above me in an integration. I have nothing to gain in this case. I really don't mean to flame. Its hard to express that in text only.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'm a little blown away that a SWA pilot doesn't see the problem with absorbing ATA's routes but can't understand why the pilots should come with them. What you gain at SWA is a foundation for expansion that was created by the ATA pilots. It would benefit SWA by creating a much bigger "pie" why would you not think the pilots who created this opportunity shouldn't share in this with you?

 

[OK3]

Dan,

you misunderstood my post. I am not questioning that pilots come with equipment, I am only referring to how they are integrated. As far as the world domination theme and more hiring, it is pretty intangible compared to seniority and pay. Maybe SWA uses the certificate to fly all over the world and hire a bunch more pilots, maybe not. I would hesitate to think it it is fair that I may get a bump down the road from an integration; while another pilot gets placed senior to me with a large pay raise. I don't want this to come across as throwing anyone under the bus. I am honestly asking what ATA guys think is fair.

 

[ATADave]

Dear Ass Clown,


A. WN bought Morris in December of ’93 (15 years ago)
B. I don’t recall the Morris Pilots being unionized
C. The days of pay protection (CA pay for FO work) are probably long gone.
D. I don’t give a red rat’s a$$ about A, B, and C above.

"Maybe the best they should do is offer a chance at an interview."

Maybe as long as you don’t pose a danger to yourself or others you won’t be institutionalized.

We’re not selling a house. We’re selling a business. This business comes with a business license and employees.

Tell us more about yourself Ass Clown. Is that a picture of yourself in your avatar? Do you have a dog in this fight? You were an AF officer weren’t you?

Dear OK3,

Your concerns are completely legitimate and not at all inflammatory.

Likewise Sir; I have felt the same about your guys that I have met many times in our jumpseats. We are however a bitter and angry group. Many of us feel we have little left to lose. Half of our once-proud fleet is gone. Over half of our employees, likewise, are gone. We have witnessed first-hand the lives and careers of our brothers ripped to shreds by an incompetent management group. Men so motivated make better friends than enemies.

ATA Fan above probably did a better job explaining the benefits of a union of our companies, but the simple answer is growth benefits everyone. I don’t think you guys are gonna’ give up PHX & LAS to Hawaii, and they don’t make a 73 that will do this. It wouldn’t surprise me if the deal came with some larger airplanes. Again, benefiting everyone. All movement has been slowed by age 65, but you will upgrade faster as a result of the expansion associated with our merger. In the mean time, just until we get settled-in, please stop drooling on our airplanes.

Respectfully,
Dave

 

[OK3]

Dave,

I understand your point. I don't wish anyone pain or misfortune.

If it happens we'll all do our best to make it work. Good luck to us all with 110 oil and a recession.

 

[HighSpeedClimb]

Just remember people, He who has it grand today could be bending over tomorrow. Treat the pilots as you would want to be treated if the tables were turned. My 2 cents

 

[ATADave]

Tailwinds OK3,

Should this transpire, we'll look forward to flyin' with you guys.

Perhaps we'll take, say, 9 FA's (yours) and I'll show ya' around Budapest or Frankfurt.

Dave

 

[Tanker Clown]

Dear Ass Clown,


A. WN bought Morris in December of ’93 (15 years ago)
B. I don’t recall the Morris Pilots being unionized
C. The days of pay protection (CA pay for FO work) are probably long gone.
D. I don’t give a red rat’s a$$ about A, B, and C above.

"Maybe the best they should do is offer a chance at an interview."

Maybe as long as you don’t pose a danger to yourself or others you won’t be institutionalized.

We’re not selling a house. We’re selling a business. This business comes with a business license and employees.

Tell us more about yourself Ass Clown. Is that a picture of yourself in your avatar? Do you have a dog in this fight? You were an AF officer weren’t you?

Dear OK3,

Your concerns are completely legitimate and not at all inflammatory.

Likewise Sir; I have felt the same about your guys that I have met many times in our jumpseats. We are however a bitter and angry group. Many of us feel we have little left to lose. Half of our once-proud fleet is gone. Over half of our employees, likewise, are gone. We have witnessed first-hand the lives and careers of our brothers ripped to shreds by an incompetent management group. Men so motivated make better friends than enemies.

ATA Fan above probably did a better job explaining the benefits of a union of our companies, but the simple answer is growth benefits everyone. I don’t think you guys are gonna’ give up PHX & LAS to Hawaii, and they don’t make a 73 that will do this. It wouldn’t surprise me if the deal came with some larger airplanes. Again, benefiting everyone. All movement has been slowed by age 65, but you will upgrade faster as a result of the expansion associated with our merger. In the mean time, just until we get settled-in, please stop drooling on our airplanes.

Respectfully,
Dave

Dave,

You're never going to make it past the SWA interview with this attitude.

 

[G. Costanza]

Seth, you are being a cocky MoFo, and you are working for the losing team. Tone it down!

 

[MTV]

If the ATA pilots and aircraft were merged into Southwest how would any SWA pilot be held back if pilots come with their own aircraft?

I believe part of the ATA sched. service includes 757s, should the SWA guys take the left seat of those too on International ops?

 

[roughneck]

Apparently my post was somewhat inflamatory. that was not my intention. I am sorry for that.

There really is only one question that needs to be answered. Are you better at ATA today than you would be at SWA tomorrow regardless of seat?

C. The days of pay protection (CA pay for FO work) are probably long gone.

I don't believe that to be true. If SWA was to aquire ATA, you can believe that SWAPA would fight to pay protect you guys at a minimum. We obviously are going to fight for seniorty, as you guys will, but in the end we will all be SWA employees. We don't want a USAIR dogfight. There is no need.

We don't need to "pull it out" and measure W2's, but I would bet that most 3 yr F/O's made ATA capt pay. That isn't a slam, just a point to consider and I would bet our management would be amenable to pay protection to keep folks happy considering it isn't a major disruption on Flight Crew pay per pilot.

Again, I didn't mean to offend anyone with my original post, just passing on what I heard. Which of course is nothing more than rumor. Take it for what its worth.

 

[Dizel8]

I don't believe that to be true. If SWA was to aquire ATA, you can believe that SWAPA would fight to pay protect you guys at a minimum.

Yes, the LUV pilots truly fought for all those ATA pilots who got furloughed when LUV took over Midway. How many ATA pilots got hired with the pref. interviews, where was SWAPA luv that day?

 

[mhermann596]

Yes, the LUV pilots truly fought for all those ATA pilots who got furloughed when LUV took over Midway. How many ATA pilots got hired with the pref. interviews, where was SWAPA luv that day?

Less than 2 percent of the ATA guys that interviewed got hired.

 

[roughneck]

We didn't cause furloughs at ATA. Actually we saved many furloughs from happening by proping up a failing airline.

We agreed to allow preferential interviews as a kind jesture. Nobody was entitled to anything.

This isn't about our group being better than your group or your group being better than our group. The truth is, collectively we have more international experience than ATA does because of the number of pilots on our seniority list. We didn't start flying the day we got hired at SWA. Most of us fly as Captains doing international ops prior to coming to SWA.

You guys have a certificate for international ops. We don't. You can ride ATA into the ground screaming, "these our our jets and our routes," or you can acknowledge that it is a sinking ship and coming over if we buy your operation, or you can go down with it.

You don't have a monopoly on experience, aircraft, and routes. You have a certificate. It may save SWA 1 year to 18 months of paperwork to purcase ATA or we can do it on our own in time. The truth is, "your routes" won't be "your routes" in time.

The USAIR guys are crying about "there routes and there planes" when in reality they were weeks from the street. ATA isn't much different today.

Southwest doesn't have better pilots or more experience. We just were blessed that we were lucky enough to get hired at SWA and nothing more. If you were in our shoes you would feel the same. Why would we want to give up seniority to a group that wouldn't even have been around after 2004 if not for SWA and won't probably be around in 6 months if not for SWA?

You aren't inferior pilots, you just weren't as lucky. That is all. SWA didn't cause ATA's demise, ATA management did, period.

 

[mdf]

Tailwinds OK3,

Should this transpire, we'll look forward to flyin' with you guys.

Perhaps we'll take, say, 9 FA's (yours) and I'll show ya' around Budapest or Frankfurt.

Dave

The flying part sounds cool, but I don't think you want to run around Frankfurt with out F/A's. Unless you plan on hitting a few brothels with Steven, Mat, and Scotty.

 

[roughneck]

Less than 2 percent of the ATA guys that interviewed got hired.

Ya and 90% of statistics are made up. We interviewed about 100 and we hired more than 2. I think you are talking about things you know little about.

 

[Freight Dog]

I am simply amazed at the cockiness of some SWA pilots on this board. I swear to God, most of you think your sh*t don't stink.

Gee... let's see:

Why not agree to staple ATA pilots to the bottom?

BECAUSE IF THE ALMIGHTY SOUTHWEST AIRLINES FURLOUGHS... THEY ARE THE FIRST TO GO!

Yeah, yeah, yeah... I know SWA never furloughed, but then again, can you guarantee that it'll never happen? What was the likelihood of UAL furloughing thousands of pilots on 9/10/2001?

I'd hate to see SWA pilots go through the same crap that most other pilot groups went through in recent years, but then again......... you do need a good dose of humility and a fat reality check.

 

[mhermann596]

Less than 2 percent of the ATA guys that interviewed got hired.

Ya and 90% of statistics are made up. We interviewed about 100 and we hired more than 2. I think you are talking about things you know little about.

You may be correct, but I am talking about the ones that interviewed under the pref interview program. SWA only offered the pref interviews from February to July 2005.

 

[ATADave]

“The truth is, collectively we have more international experience than ATA does because of the number of pilots on our seniority list. We didn't start flying the day we got hired at SWA. Most of us fly as Captains doing international ops prior to coming to SWA.”

Roughneck,

Whaaa haaa haaa haaaa. Haaa ha ha. Whaaaa.

The two times you got RADAR vectored to Toronto in the Citation don’t really count Dude. Your statement and attitude is simply disrespectful. Not once in this thread has an ATA guy discounted the type of flying you do. (Obviously, profitability commands a certain amount of respect.)

“Why would we want to give up seniority to a group that wouldn't even have been around after 2004 if not for SWA and won't probably be around in 6 months if not for SWA?”

You’re not “giving up” anything. You’re growing and continuing to prosper

"If you were in our shoes you would feel the same."

Probably not, but I probably have a couple of more uniforms in my closet than yourself. What I would not do is represent myself as you have in this medium. Don’t worry though (not that you would) as I’ve had the pleasure of meeting enough WN pilots to recognize that you do not represent majority

Who knows what will happen. Perhaps we’ll meet in the cockpit someday – or at a negotiating table.

Hey mdf,

That’s extremely funny Dude, but most of ours under 50 were furloughed. If they were hot, I think you guys already hired them

Tailwinds Ya’all
Dave

 

[AQ PILOT]

ATADave...Yeah, you really missed it. I said I'd like to see a fair merge between AQ and ATA. I'd like to see a fair merge between AQ and WN. But if that wasn't going to occur, I'd sure as heck like to be stapled to the bottom of WN's seniority list as opposed to being out of a job. Like I said, you can always quit.

Some of you ATA guys are just going overboard here. I'm sorry, I feel for you, hell, we at AQ could be right behind you. None of us ever wants to see any of our 'brothers' get the shaft. Aside from the few real jacka$$es that are in any industry, I think we all want to see one another succeed. Y'all need to just back up a step and cool down...

I really don't agree with atafan that your ops cert is worth quite what you guys think it may be. I hope for you guys that it is, but if that is the case, believe me, MatPat will get THEIR money out of it and feed your arses to the dogs. Don't doubt that for a second.

In the meantime, lets do a little Rodney King here and all just get along. These are life changing conditions for people. A little empathy goes a long way and hot headedness will only make things worse.

And freight dog, I disagree with you here man, this is more than just WN thinkin' they are all that....

Best of luck to EVERYONE in this industry! Peace!