Age 65 will cause FURLOUGHS and DOWNGRADES

[luckytohaveajob]

Don't blame the industry, oil, management, or bad luck when the furloughs, downgrades, and possible pay cuts occur. The problem can clearly be blamed on SWAPA and ALPA's efforts in achieving Age 65 passage.

The retirements that are not going to occur have driven payrolls sky high, prevented upgrades from occurring, increased loss of medical insurance premiums by double, prevented mergers from occurring because of unfair advantages,ended pool hiring, and will ultimately force more restrictive medical standards, among other negatives.

What would have stopped the NWA/DAL deal if age 60 was the law of the land?NWA would not have had a concern and the deal would have been signed by now.

Look at the short term numbers lost!!!!!!!


American Airlines Retirements:
2008-457
2009-459
2010-397
2011-340
2012-329

Retirement numbers at CAL(total pilots@4897):
2008:193
2009:200
2010:190
2011:207
2012:211

Alaska...1502 pilots
2008-48
2009-43
2010-48
2011-52
2012-49

Airways retirement numbers, East and West pilot groups. Of those that were active 3/1/06:

Yr. East West

08 143 46

09 185 47

10 163 52

11 191 44

12 214 65

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Yawwwnnnn...

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Time to seal the windows, turn on the gas, make some macaroni and cheese and just ...

 

[AWACoff]

You are preaching to the choir. At least we can have some consolation that they will likely die sooner after retirement. Just remember what those age 65 proponents have done when it comes time to negotiate a new contract. Screw the over 60 guys just like they screwed the new guys. And before you age 65 idiots start spewing rhetoric out of your filthy mouths, remember, it's not age discrimination if you call it by a different name.

 

[pipe]

Yawwwnnnn...

Not a yawn if you're the one under the knife because of it.

This thread is not an argument about the merits. It passed. These are the factual consequences of the rule change. If there are furloughs, a different set of people get the axe due to the rule change.

It may not matter to you, but I can assure you that it matters to many of us. If you don't want to read it - don't click on the thread.

PIPE

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

luckytohaveajob.... don't forget to include ICAO in your alphabet blame game.... oh... and you're a victim.... feel better?

Can you talk about ICAO's role in all of this...

Maybe you can get revs. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and our own beloved Joe Merchant to help with victim status and living in the past....


Oh yeah.... and ALPA sucks!!

 

[Flying Freddie]

Opportunity knocks!

Looking on the bright side, this gives us all five extra years to search for a job.

 

[328dude]

It won't affect Lucky cause he's on some sort of leave over there at Alaska. *cough cough*

 

[Dizel8]

Time to seal the windows, turn on the gas, make some macaroni and cheese and just ...

Light a match?

 

[BEfly]

funny you don't mention the year 2013.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Light a match?

As long as I can wake up every day and laugh at Brittany, LiLo or Michael Jackson -- life is still worth living. Even as an airline pilot.

 

[AKMD80GUY]

Age 65 won't affect the companies that still have an A plan. These pilots will still retire at 60 OR 30 years of service. Every guy I've talked to that was close to 60/30 YOS was out.

I agree that this will slow down the upgrades but not to the degree that people think. Also management banking on these pilots sticking around is a definite problem for them. This doesn't solve their staffing problem. It does just the opposite. All we have to do is give them 30 days notice and from what I've been hearing, that's all they are going to give. Some are planning on filing their papers all at once.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

funny you don't mention the year 2013.

I have the 2013 numbers and beyond. I just wanted to show the near term numbers to keep it relevant.

I also did not bother to look up all the carriers 2008-2012 numbers. If you have them handy post them here.

Thanks.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Can you talk about ICAO's role in all of this...

Maybe you can get revs. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and our own beloved Joe Merchant to help with victim status and living in the past....


Oh yeah.... and ALPA sucks!!

France and Columbia still are age 60. So ICAO has nothing to do with it. If the US filed an exemption as it had for a almost 10 years, we to would have continued using age 60.

This has nothing to do with the past. The change has occurred. The consequence of the change is as drastic as I predicted it would be. Search my past posts, if you doubt what I said all along concerning this incredibly stupid change.

The change happened. These are the consequences. I hope you enjoy them being on the bottom of a new list.

And yes ALPA and SWAPA does SUCK! The question is what t!t will you be sucking when you get your pink slip, Mr. Age 65 supporter.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And yes ALPA and SWAPA does SUCK! The question is what t!t will you be sucking when you get your pink slip, Mr. Age 65 supporter.

Actually I am indifferent to age 60. That is not the problem...

The problem is open skies, cabatoge and foreign ownership...

While you are worried about cows and tits.. the foreign bull is going to beat the shat out of you....

I'd forget about this age 60 amatuer hour bullshat... the real threat is 5-10 years down the road. If you'll reach age 65 with 10 years then don't worry about it....

You'll just be taking your vacation travel on your retired benefits as EVERY FLIGHT CREW MEMBER has a thick foreign accent......... yes pilots and FA's.

If you have more than 10 years left in this career, then age 60/65 DOESN"T MATTER. You'll be replaced by low wage workers willing to do your job for nickels on the dollar with no retirement or benefits. No health care...NOTHING!

Who cares about age 60 when the difference between a cabbage picker, chinese toy factory worker and US airline pilot will be minimal....


WAKE UP!!!!

 

[TAZ MAN]

So ICAO has nothing to do with it.

My you are an ignorant young man.

 

[freight dork]

You'll just be taking your vacation travel on your retired benefits as EVERY FLIGHT CREW MEMBER has a thick foreign accent......... yes pilots and FA's.

If you have more than 10 years left in this career, then age 60/65 DOESN"T MATTER. You'll be replaced by low wage workers willing to do your job for nickels on the dollar with no retirement or benefits. No health care...NOTHING!

Who cares about age 60 when the difference between a cabbage picker, chinese toy factory worker and US airline pilot will be minimal....


WAKE UP!!!!

Yes, you're right, the flight crew will have a thick foreign AMERICAN ACCENT....

Actually it'll be the Americans who are undercutting everybody and taking all the foreign jobs. I'm not sure what world you're living in, but American pilots are among the lowest paid (although most experienced) pilots in the world. The foreign carriers love us American contractors because we are happy to work hard for the what they pay us, while the permanent pilots whine about the Americans willingness to work for less and ruining their pay raise opportunities. Yes open-skies, cabotage, etc will hurt aviation, but it'll be the Americans who lower the bar. I left the US for overseas work because the pay is more than double and the QOL is so much better out of the good ol' USA. My Polish girlfriend makes more as a junior cabin crew than I made as a regional FO in the USA. My foreign junior ATR FO's are paid more then I was being paid as an ATR Capt. in the USA. And I make more money now as a
Contract ATR capt then a 10 year United FO. Get your head out of the sand.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yes, you're right, the flight crew will have a thick foreign AMERICAN ACCENT....

Maybe you didn't read my post..... I said in 10 years.

Actually it'll be the Americans who are undercutting everybody and taking all the foreign jobs. I'm not sure what world you're living in, but American pilots are among the lowest paid (although most experienced) pilots in the world.

Compared to whom? The Euro's? What about the SA and Africans? Chinese? How much does a pilot in Cuba make?

These pilots are the threat to our profession in NA in the next ten years.

The foreign carriers love us American contractors because we are happy to work hard for the what they pay us, while the permanent pilots whine about the Americans willingness to work for less and ruining their pay raise opportunities.

These are individuals Americans, not representative of the collective. There are plenty of Euro's that will work here for less flying jets just so they can live here, green card, etc...

Yes open-skies, cabotage, etc will hurt aviation, but it'll be the Americans who lower the bar.

Wrong again. I am not sure where you are getting your data. Today, doesn't count. It is the future forecast.

I left the US for overseas work because the pay is more than double and the QOL is so much better out of the good ol' USA.

But just earlier and above in your post you said its the Americans who are undercutting. So are you undercutting? Sure it was a good deal for YOU, but did you undercut the local ATR pilots you are flying with?

It seems its you.....you are talking about....

My Polish girlfriend makes more as a junior cabin crew than I made as a regional FO in the USA.

Many FA's at many airlines in the USA make more than regional turboprop FO's. Whats the difference?

My foreign junior ATR FO's are paid more then I was being paid as an ATR Capt. in the USA. And I make more money now as a
Contract ATR capt then a 10 year United FO.

Today.


Are your calculations before or after taxes? Do you have a career with this foreign carrier? IOW, will you stay there until you retire? What is retirement age?

Get your head out of the sand.

I am simply echo-ing the indications. If you want to sit on the beach and say life is great today... fine. I don't disagree with you... but when I say to you from atop the cliff that the tsunami of globalism is on the way.... perhpas you'd want to consider.

 

[Flopgut]

Last two posts have become all-too-typical for flightinfo.com. Rez gets schooled by someone with ACTUAL knowledge and first hand account, then he picks the post apart and shows the entire world how stubborn and stupid acting he is.

Rez: You don't know pig poop from apple butter.

 

[Flopgut]

Actually I am indifferent to age 60. That is not the problem...

The problem is open skies, cabatoge and foreign ownership...

While you are worried about cows and tits.. the foreign bull is going to beat the shat out of you....

quote]

Bravo for being indifferent to age 60. But if you really understood the problem you'd realize that to go into globalization you'd want your union firing on all cylinders. It's NOT! If it was, age 65 would not have passed in the way it did. You can't claim to know anything about union process and have any faith in ALPA to handle other issues. If a few extra dollars were dangled before Prater right now to sign off on cabotage, he WOULD! Pure and simple. Rez: I've been in three unions and when I hear you talk it scares the crap out of me; I can't believe I share an affiliation with someone so stupid acting!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Bravo for being indifferent to age 60.

as a younger pilot I am effected by it...

But if you really understood the problem you'd realize that to go into globalization you'd want your union firing on all cylinders. It's NOT!

No Shat. But that doesn't mean globalization isn't going to effect us.

If it was, age 65 would not have passed in the way it did. You can't claim to know anything about union process and have any faith in ALPA to handle other issues.

Is this about age 60 or union effectiveness?

If a few extra dollars were dangled before Prater right now to sign off on cabotage, he WOULD! Pure and simple.

Not sure if that is really true.... but it doesn't matter, cause that is what you and too many believe!!

Your perception is your reality and Praters problem... well in actuality... its all of our problems...

Rez: I've been in three unions and when I hear you talk it scares the crap out of me; I can't believe I share an affiliation with someone so stupid acting!

Your immature comments suggest you are younger than I.

We actually agree more than not... it appears you are too angry to think logically. Are you a USAPA supporter?

Age 60 is over. It is yesterday! The more you talk about the past the more we'll get hammered by the future.

Our effectiveness is our number one problem. We can't handle any of the issues while we are dysfunctional.

A problem is .... guys are still hung up on Age 60. Its over. But while you are still angry about the past we are not fixing our effectiveness issues to deal with the next problem.

And when cabatoge, open skies or foreign control takes another hit out of careers... are you going to realize what is going on?

 

[elag777]

luckytohaveajob.... don't forget to include ICAO in your alphabet blame game.... oh... and you're a victim.... feel better?

Can you talk about ICAO's role in all of this...

Maybe you can get revs. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and our own beloved Joe Merchant to help with victim status and living in the past....


Oh yeah.... and ALPA sucks!!

I expected a more mature post from you Rez?:erm:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

My you are an ignorant young man.

Then school me tough guy....

 

[TAZ MAN]

Then school me tough guy....

School you? How about the quote I responded to wasn't from you. Or was it? Hmmmmm

You are wound way too tight.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

School you? How about the quote I responded to wasn't from you. Or was it? Hmmmmm

You are wound way too tight.

Agreed.... logging off now....

 

[Mach 80]

So what. It passed and that's it. Why do some want to continue to cry about it? How will that change anything?

 

[2ndGenPSA]

Pilots seem to love to vote Republican. Lower taxes myth I guess??
Well, they can be thanked for age 65. Your congress and your president are responsible.
They can be thanked for union busting. Ex-presidents started it (PATCO), and it continues.
Labor is so far down the road of beat-down discrimination, there is no reversing it.
You think ALPA is responsible for age 65? You think if they would have continued their fight against it, that Florida congressman would have shelved his proposal? You think that congress and the president would have LISTENED to ALPA???
Crazy!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Pilots seem to love to vote Republican. Lower taxes myth I guess??
Well, they can be thanked for age 65. Your congress and your president are responsible.
They can be thanked for union busting. Ex-presidents started it (PATCO), and it continues.
Labor is so far down the road of beat-down discrimination, there is no reversing it.
You think ALPA is responsible for age 65? You think if they would have continued their fight against it, that Florida congressman would have shelved his proposal? You think that congress and the president would have LISTENED to ALPA???
Crazy!

Good SA. the emotional crowd like luckytohaveajob won't have it though.... they just want to me mad!!

 

[Flopgut]

Rez: you have no SA. I don't support USAPA.

What planet are you from? Seriously? It sounds like you think we should champion the needs Chinese and South American pilots as an answer to globalization. Is that right? We need to take care of pilot jobs here, no where else. And we will accomplish that by leveling the playing field with an answer to health care and shoring up our retirement needs. This could be done if ALPA would pattern what the UAW is doing (health care) and if we could achieve a railroad like retirement plan. But, ALPA won't do that. When I contact them I have to talk to someone like you who can pretty well describe the problem, but has NO answers! NONE! You think pragmatism is the answer, ALPA thinks it's the answer, you're both wrong. Truth: Retirement age doesn't really matter in other ICAO countries. It never did, on either side of the equation. And it shouldn't matter here, but the senior A-holes made it matter. They took it half way and engineered a band-aid on medical standards just to help themselves. What you don't realize is that ALPA National thinks you and I are young and spoiled and they are happy we want to make sweeping changes and help the whole world. It keeps us busy while they take for themselves. Now the difference between me and you? YOU are going to end up just like them! You'll be delighted to lick the boot kicking the shat out of you! Cause you've got NO answers! NONE! I defy you to come up with a working plan for raising the standard of living for Chinese pilots like I suspect you think should be done!! You want to do that?? Then make our own working reality better... That's how you'll help everyone.

 

[tomgoodman]

Risks of retiring at 60

Age 65 won't affect the companies that still have an A plan. These pilots will still retire at 60 OR 30 years of service.

If they can collect most of their pension as a lump sum and/or are sure that their annuity checks won't be slashed after they retire -- then yes, they would be smart to go at 60. Otherwise, they may feel they had better earn as much as they can for as long as they can. They have seen what happened at other airlines.