Is this profession in peril?

[JoeMerchant]

yet Americans, who bother to vote, still elect thos politicians and then complain they are not leaders... oh wait... that is you Joey...

Actually I wish fewer people actually voted....Most people don't educate themselves....they just vote based on sound bites and campaign posters....and even based on color or gender.....Many blacks are going to vote for Obama because he is black....many women are going to vote for Hillary because she is a woman.....If I voted for a white male because he was white or male....I would be a racist or a sexist.....But I digress.....

Most politicians are not leaders....The only leader I saw in the Presidential election that wasn't a politician was Ron Paul....That's who I voted for even though I don't agree with him on everything.....There were also eliments of leadership from Fred Thompson as he was the only one who wanted to address the pressing issue of entitlement programs.....or the third rail of politics...He was the one I supported until he dropped out.....

When I vote in November, I will vote for the lesser of two evils....and I will complain if they don't lead.....that is my right. Politicians get elected...leaders usually don't.....

The NRA and AOPA are hobby organization.... get real....

Actually the Second Amendment is more than just a hobby to most of us and it is General Aviation that gave me my start in this great profession....so I will never turn my back on it.....They are more than just "hobbies"....but I digress...

Regardless of what type of organization you want to classify them....there is no question that they are very powerful lobbies in Washington DC.....I would venture to say the average Congressman fears the NRA more than ALPA.....How is that given that most NRA members don't participate and the dues are far less....

How do they do it Rez?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Neither the NRA or AOPA are tied to your house payment...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Neither the NRA or AOPA are tied to your house payment...

....boy your debating skills are about as impressive as the rest of the Herndon clan.....

1. The second amendment is tied to my property....It is far more important than any of the issues we are debating here.....But I digress.....

2. General Aviation got me to where I am today which definately is tied to my house payment....I don't forget my roots....

3. ALPA doesn't really care about my house payments.....They aren't protecting my job.....If I don't pay them, they will cut off the source of my income which does pay my house payment...

4. You still haven't addressed the issue of how these two groups are so effective in DC with very little membership participation and cheaper dues.....You can side step with the best of them....

This is like shooting fish in a barrel....Your losing it Rez.....:laugh:

 

[PCL_128]

Joe, the NRA has 4.3 million members. We have 66,000. We have to work a lot harder to be anywhere near as effective in Washington. There is no comparison. Even AOPA has about 400,000+ members. And they aren't busy using their money to negotiate contracts and save people's jobs. They have a single focus: protecting their members' rights in DC. ALPA doesn't have the luxury of a single focus. We are being attacked from all sides.

 

[waveflyer]

Agreed, as regional pilots we are simply vendors who provide lift for the major brand...

Recall major airline can live without the regional... but the vice versa...
True. But what's your point? My point is that flying mainline routes w/ pilots of separate companies w/ separate lists undermines the seniority system.

Do you see this as a problem? Now, if you had to pay dues, I think you could.
Not particularly- but the practice doesn't recognize that pilots on the bottom of lists do move around- and are voiceless until they get a year in at a carrier.

so you are saying that you'd go right into the majors if the regionals didn't exist?
Depends on your definition of 'right in' -This is not about me, Rez- I'm fine- but there is NO DOUBT i would have been at a major years earlier if the regionals weren't given the ability to grow the 70-90 seat market- releasing scope this much is indefensible and has lengthened the career of the majority of pilots. (Even military- they either had to go to a regional or stay in to wait on the opportunity at a major while traffic was increasing at majors - but not on mainline a/c.

So you want furloughed guys to be able to vote? Should they pay dues?
The point of all this is that you rail on me for not participating. How could I? How could the vast majority of young pilots? We have been forced to count on the senior mainline pilots and there have been few times when we've been looked out for.

National Sen list.. a Pan Am pilot loses his B747 CA job when PanAM folds... you think he should go to UAL with Seniority and be a UAL B747 CA over all UAL pilots. If the Pan AM rate was higher than UAL should he get that too?

A national list would change the entire dynamic of our career. Everything would change. Especially how we bid. You could change companies w/o an airline going out of business... But yes- in your scenario- absolutely the PanAm guy would go whereever his seniority allowed him to go- to whatever company he chose- but remember every United pilot would also be building seniority equally- As long as the market for pilots in the country increased- everyone would have a job w/ their seniority. Note: The demand for aviation is predicted to grow rapidly between now and 2020. The demand for your current company may not be so lucky- Our leverage should be increasing- but it decreases b/c we are so concerned that whatever company we are employed by now remains and stays in it's current form. You said it perfectly on another thread- pilots don't run airlines- why do we give the most important aspect of our career over to management? It's dumb in an environment that changes as quickly as ours does. Think- a national seniority list means not caring if a company goes under- we'll do our best for you but can't be responsible for mismanagement- and then if it does we filter in to whoever fills in the gaps left behind. We don't need a national contract- Maybe that's an incentive for going to FedEx over United- more pay. Maybe you want more day flying- so you bid for United or Northwest- Maybe you just want to be LA based- you could bid the LA airlines in whatever your seniority could hold.
Everything would change.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe, the NRA has 4.3 million members. We have 66,000. We have to work a lot harder to be anywhere near as effective in Washington. There is no comparison. Even AOPA has about 400,000+ members. And they aren't busy using their money to negotiate contracts and save people's jobs. They have a single focus: protecting their members' rights in DC. ALPA doesn't have the luxury of a single focus. We are being attacked from all sides.

But it isn't really an issue of participation....AOPA members and NRA members don't participate in meetings either....most probably don't vote on the internal elections either.....

400,000 times 39 dollars comes to about 15.5 million in dues....ALPA gets far more than that....

Yes there are differences....but both them are for more effective without membership participation and neither of them blame the membership for any failures....

If you cheerleaders want to be more effective...I would suggest you quit blaming those who pay the bills.....That isn't going to win people over and get them to participate more when you blame them.....

ALPA could learn something from other organizations......NRA, AOPA, AMA, and the ABA just to name a few.....

 

[waveflyer]

But the lawmakers you lobby know you only represent 66,000- that's not enough votes to make a difference. 4+ million is. But that's not an excuse. You can lead in other ways. As political as our careers are- we need to influence public opinion more. Then they'll support us. Most passengers have no idea how little a regional pilot makes. This should be advertised. That yes- we can eventually make $150k+ but the road to get there is very long and not assured.... Fatigue should be advertised. Galvanize the public and we could have more leverage on things like reversing of sleep schedules and 16 hour days. Use the public's fear of flying- They want well rested, experienced pilots= use that on MPL instead of automatically rolling over on it.
The standard Ads from ALPA national don't really say much and are usually so filled w/ rhetoric, the standard capitalist businessman shuns it. "Contract NOW!!!" What does that say? Educate the public on our life and profession a bit and we can get somewhere.

 

[Dizel8]

waveflyer,

You make an interesting point, but the horse has alredy left the barn

The west coast long shore men showed how it could have worked, but ALPA really isn't a union, more like a association as the name implies.

 

[JoeMerchant]

But the lawmakers you lobby know you only represent 66,000- that's not enough votes to make a difference. 4+ million is. But that's not an excuse. You can lead in other ways. As political as our careers are- we need to influence public opinion more. Then they'll support us. Most passengers have no idea how little a regional pilot makes. This should be advertised. That yes- we can eventually make $150k+ but the road to get there is very long and not assured.... Fatigue should be advertised. Galvanize the public and we could have more leverage on things like reversing of sleep schedules and 16 hour days. Use the public's fear of flying- They want well rested, experienced pilots= use that on MPL instead of automatically rolling over on it.
The standard Ads from ALPA national don't really say much and are usually so filled w/ rhetoric, the standard capitalist businessman shuns it. "Contract NOW!!!" What does that say? Educate the public on our life and profession a bit and we can get somewhere.

The public doesn't care about our pay and workrules...the fact is we make more and have pretty good schedules compared to many of them....However the safety issue is something they care about and the level of experience is a safety issue.....

The fact is....if MPL was a gun control issue or a general aviation issue you wouldn't hear the NRA or AOPA say "well we couldn't win that one so we gave up on opposing it".....

In addition....if ALPA was more effective and if there was less infighting and turf battles....You would see ALPA grow....What if SWA, AAI, UPS, and American joined....The membership would be larger and there would be more clout....Those groups aren't going to touch ALPA with a 10 ft. pole with the current infighting going on.....

 

[PCL_128]

But it isn't really an issue of participation....AOPA members and NRA members don't participate in meetings either....most probably don't vote on the internal elections either.....

When Rez and I talk about membership participation in meeting and elections, that's internal ALPA stuff. That's not about effectiveness on Cap Hill. Effectiveness on Cap Hill also requires participation, but a different kind of participation. It requires donations to the PAC. ALPA gets clout on the hill by going to lawmakers and saying "--% of our members contribute to the PAC, and we've decided to give you a maximum campaign contribution from their PAC money." Dues money cannot be used for contributions, so PAC money is a necessity to have any pull on the hill, and PAC participation rates are important, especially to lawmakers that reside in districts heavy in pilots.

400,000 times 39 dollars comes to about 15.5 million in dues....ALPA gets far more than that....

And again, AOPA can use virtually all of their revenue for lobbying initiatives. We don't have that luxury. If you had paid any attention to your actual job as an ST, you would realize that ALPA is tight on cash right now as it is. There isn't money to spare on much lobbying efforts. Everything is going towards negotiations, contract enforcement, day-to-day operations, etc... That's another reason that PAC money is so important.

 

[ualdriver]

2. I contribute money to both the NRA and to AOPA.....I have absolutely no compaints with either of these two groups and most members of these two groups do not participate other than sending in money and reading the magazines.....Despite this, BOTH these groups do a very good job of defending the rights and interests of gun owners and general aviation.....How do they do this with little participation and less money from the members?

You have no problems with either of these organizations? They do a very good job of representing their member's interests? Maybe you're just not looking deep enough because you don't participate in those organizations actively enough.

How about some examples. I think ALPA does a decent job of representing its pilots. The problem is that, like any large organization, it has its failings. And pillots focus on those failings and disparage the ENTIRE organization when the organization doesn't meet their perceived individual needs, whatever they are. Then it's screw ALPA.

But what if I used that same logic to describe the failings of the AOPA or the NRA....

Here I am a responsibe American with no criminal background and I couldn't legally own a handgun in the city where I lived. No beef with the NRA? Screw the NRA! They suck! I pay all that money to that organization and as a responsible US citizen I can't even own a handgun!! The NRA sucks!!! Sound familiar?

How about the AOPA? The airport where my grandfather used to take me to so that we could watch airplanes take off and land is now closed. The AOPA fought and lost to keep this airport open. Screw the AOPA! They can't even keep a little airport open! I'm not paying any money to an organization that is so ineffective that they can't even keep little airports open. I couldn't even fly my business jet into DCA for years! The AOPA sucks! I hope they completely fail and go to........Again, does this sound familiar?

You use these two organizations as some sort of example for ALPA to follow. Give me a break. Both of these organizations have MANY failings, are imperfect organizations, have compromised, yet you and I both have given them our business because, despite their flaws it's the best way to have our interests represeted when it's all said and done. Sound familiar?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

1. The second amendment is tied to my property....It is far more important than any of the issues we are debating here.....But I digress.....

Do you use your guns to ensure your property more than you make your house payment?

2. General Aviation got me to where I am today which definately is tied to my house payment....I don't forget my roots....

GA was an educational tool.....tool.

3. ALPA doesn't really care about my house payments.....They aren't protecting my job.....If I don't pay them, they will cut off the source of my income which does pay my house payment...

No ALPA isn't sacrficing the DAL pilots for your benefit.... get real.... if you don't pay ALPA you will still keep your house... unless ASA fires you...

4. You still haven't addressed the issue of how these two groups are so effective in DC with very little membership participation and cheaper dues.....You can side step with the best of them....

they are not high mx organizations... they don't deal in pay, benefits, time off, retirement, etc...

 

[PCL_128]

GA was an educational tool.....tool.

Well done.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You have no problems with either of these organizations? They do a very good job of representing their member's interests? Maybe you're just not looking deep enough because you don't participate in those organizations actively enough.

How about some examples. I think ALPA does a decent job of representing its pilots. The problem is that, like any large organization, it has its failings. And pillots focus on those failings and disparage the ENTIRE organization when the organization doesn't meet their perceived individual needs, whatever they are. Then it's screw ALPA.

But what if I used that same logic to describe the failings of the AOPA or the NRA....

Here I am a responsibe American with no criminal background and I couldn't legally own a handgun in the city where I lived. No beef with the NRA? Screw the NRA! They suck! I pay all that money to that organization and as a responsible US citizen I can't even own a handgun!! The NRA sucks!!! Sound familiar?

How about the AOPA? The airport where my grandfather used to take me to so that we could watch airplanes take off and land is now closed. The AOPA fought and lost to keep this airport open. Screw the AOPA! They can't even keep a little airport open! I'm not paying any money to an organization that is so ineffective that they can't even keep little airports open. I couldn't even fly my business jet into DCA for years! The AOPA sucks! I hope they completely fail and go to........Again, does this sound familiar?

You use these two organizations as some sort of example for ALPA to follow. Give me a break. Both of these organizations have MANY failings, are imperfect organizations, have compromised, yet you and I both have given them our business because, despite their flaws it's the best way to have our interests represeted when it's all said and done. Sound familiar?

excellent post ualdriver... of course the grass is greener on the other side of the fence in Joe M.'s miserable world....

Basically Joe stubbed his "career" toe... it hurts.. and he won't be happy until everyone else has stubbed thier toe as well....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Recall major airline can live without the regional... but the vice versa...
True. But what's your point? My point is that flying mainline routes w/ pilots of separate companies w/ separate lists undermines the seniority system.

So it does.... what is your point? That unions should be able to stop that? Why do you have that expectation?

Do you see this as a problem? Now, if you had to pay dues, I think you could.
Not particularly- but the practice doesn't recognize that pilots on the bottom of lists do move around- and are voiceless until they get a year in at a carrier.

And Americans are voiceless until age 18. If you think Americans should be able to vote at a younger age then change it.... same with ALPA...

so you are saying that you'd go right into the majors if the regionals didn't exist?
Depends on your definition of 'right in' -This is not about me, Rez- I'm fine- but there is NO DOUBT i would have been at a major years earlier if the regionals weren't given the ability to grow the 70-90 seat market- releasing scope this much is indefensible and has lengthened the career of the majority of pilots. (Even military- they either had to go to a regional or stay in to wait on the opportunity at a major while traffic was increasing at majors - but not on mainline a/c.

And I would have been at a major 5 years ago if it wasn't for 9/11.... life is not fair.... but life goes on!!

So you want furloughed guys to be able to vote? Should they pay dues?
The point of all this is that you rail on me for not participating. How could I? How could the vast majority of young pilots? We have been forced to count on the senior mainline pilots and there have been few times when we've been looked out for.

well.... how else to expect to contribute before you become a member? The same applies to teenagers.. they are forced to deal with it all by the 18+ voters.... is there a better way? You tell me..

National Sen list.. a Pan Am pilot loses his B747 CA job when PanAM folds... you think he should go to UAL with Seniority and be a UAL B747 CA over all UAL pilots. If the Pan AM rate was higher than UAL should he get that too?



A national list would change the entire dynamic of our career. Everything would change. Especially how we bid. You could change companies w/o an airline going out of business...

How are you going to get companies to agree to allow a pilot to change companies? Could a pilot change companies at whim? Just decide for personal reasons that he'd rather work at DAL?

But yes- in your scenario- absolutely the PanAm guy would go whereever his seniority allowed him to go- to whatever company he chose- but remember every United pilot would also be building seniority equally- As long as the market for pilots in the country increased- everyone would have a job w/ their seniority.

Why would companies and "UAL" pilots agree to this?

Note: The demand for aviation is predicted to grow rapidly between now and 2020. The demand for your current company may not be so lucky- Our leverage should be increasing- but it decreases b/c we are so concerned that whatever company we are employed by now remains and stays in it's current form. You said it perfectly on another thread- pilots don't run airlines- why do we give the most important aspect of our career over to management?

Keep in mind... when there is growth the talk about SOS, Nat'l pay and senlist goes away...


Why do we 'give it over' to management... Actually, I don't think we do give it... 'they' have always had it.. why do you have this expectation or belief that "we give it to managment" .......justify it...

It's dumb in an environment that changes as quickly as ours does.

It is called the dynamic free market ecomony. As Americans we love it... it gets us the cheapest prices...

See as pilots we want pax to NOT pay $200 for a r/t ticket transcon.... but as soon as we become consumers in another industry we want cheap prices.

Think- a national seniority list means not caring if a company goes under- we'll do our best for you but can't be responsible for mismanagement- and then if it does we filter in to whoever fills in the gaps left behind.

Sounds... good... how will you get management to agree to this...? So if a company folds and a new one starts.. the new company has to hire from the Nat'l list... at what pay rate? first year pay or the pilots longevity rate? How would you make the new company obligated to hire the Nat'l sen list pilot?

We don't need a national contract- Maybe that's an incentive for going to FedEx over United- more pay. Maybe you want more day flying- so you bid for United or Northwest- Maybe you just want to be LA based- you could bid the LA airlines in whatever your seniority could hold.

Everything would change.

How will you get companies to agree to this? Does a company have to hire the next pilot who has rights to employment? Are you not negating a companies right to hire who they think is best to operate thier jets in thier culture?