CS Pay

[gunfyter]

19,

Want to collect pilots pay? ... get your ATP and start applying for the job.

Quit crying about it from your cubicle.

But that is not why you are here. As a Union-Buster your goal in this conversation is to create hate and discontent between Pilots and other workers.

 

[netjetwife]

Vocabulary help for the poster(s) in need of it

rank and file (term I responded to) 1.The enlisted troops, excluding noncommissioned officers, in an army.

In my 20 yrs as an officer's wife I met many enlisted troops and/or their wives. None of them expected the pay to be what a rated officer (pilot) was paid. We all know the enlisted troops make an important contribution, but economically speaking, they don't command the same salary as an officer/pilot. I doubt that the support workers (with an equivalent enlisted position) at a fractional company view it any differently. Those not barred from flying (physical limitations are obviously another story) know they could have pursued it had they wanted to.

2. The people who form the major portion of a group, organization, or society, excluding the leaders and officers.

rank and file - the ordinary members of an organization

Among ground/support workers, upper management and those with special skills are not, by definition, among rank and file workers that were mentioned by B19 even though he tried to include them after my response. In fact, those he subsequently mentioned as having skills on par with pilots would probably be paid as well, if not better, especially if they were in Options management. After all, they aren't known for their respect to pilots there....

Readers, Gunfyter used the correct definition in his analogy of nurses and doctors. Noting the economic reality that nurses are paid less than doctors is not disrespectful. Nor is my suggestion that ordinary support workers (without highly specialized skills) should not be paid as much as a pilot. For example, it is wrong when FAs make more than pilots. Pilots can quickly learn how to fill in for most rank and file workers. But the support staff can't be trained to fly a jet in the same amount of time, and competitive hours are built up over years.

I have posted before (but it is worth repeating) that I don't think any worker at a frac should be paid less than the going rate for their position. I encourage every underpaid worker to stand up for his/herself. Naturally, I can identify more strongly with frac pilots/families and the problems they face with unfair compensation.

GIVE BLUE COLLAR WAGES THE BOOT! PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS AND SHOULD BE COMPENSATED AS SUCH!

 

[fischman]

I don't agree that you've ever proven me wrong. Remember all the times I told you about The fantastic working relationship between management and the 1108 leadership? Every time I told you about that I was provnig you wrong.

However, I challenge you to prove me wrong now. I want to see if you agree that the wife of your NJ friend, isn't blowing smoke that she doesn't understand or know squat about.

Are you telling me that you agree with the statements?


She wrote:

"All those rank and file frac workers...personally, I prefer CA1900's term-- support folks...were free to be pilots if they had chosen to make that investment." This is America. We all make choices in life. That is not meant to be insulting. Being a pilot is part of the life I have chosen. That means I know that I am not always going to be there on Christmas morning with my kids. It sucks, but is the life I chose. The folks at Bridgeway did the same.



Prove me wrong.


She also wrote:

"support folks don't have to have a license from the FAA do they?" Partially correct. Schedulers, VP's, Flight Managers, etc do not require an FAA license. Of course the dispatchers, A&P's do.

Prove me wrong.


She also wrote:

I bet they recognize that pilots have additional skills and experience that support folks don't have. Some of the folks at Bridgeway hold pilot ratings. I would wager that not many of them are above a Commercial certificate, and MOST of them do not hold type ratings.

Prove me wrong.

Do you really agree with her statements above?

Let's me point out, that the person she is married to was trained by the US Goverment, and while I respect that he put his life on the line as I do all the former military pilots I work with and around every day, he, like them, didn't pay to become a pilot like the vast majority of the rest us had to. If he had to pay, would he have made the same choices? I personally know NJW's husband. He is one of the MOST honorable men I know, and can not express the joy I experience knowing he is representing me and my family. On the other hand, I did not choose the military route and spent $70,000 getting my ratings. Only he can answer that question.

In addition, a degree from any college isn't cheap, becoming an A & P or a dispatcher isn't cheap either, but they are included in the rank and file employees I am talking about and she is disrespecting. According to http://www.sheffield.com/prices.htmlhttp://www.sheffield.com/prices.html it costs about $4,600 to earn a Dispatcher Certificate. A basic A&P certificate from AmericanAirmen is $975. http://www.americanairman.com/website/01google/03_01_apcourse.htm?gclid=CLjbmpb455ECFQUYlwod-BHifg#5 That is a far cry from the $70,000 I spent. Also consider the costs for NetJets to keep me current. Take away any of them, the plane doesn't fly. No arguement there.

For the most part, you are going to have to go digging pretty deep to find a post where I have called somebody any kind of name even though they are leveled at me on a regular basis. Even now, I'm not calling names, but I'm being highly discriptive of my opinion on her lack of knowledge. She's clueless.

Because you don't agree with my stance on unions does not mean that I'm disrespectful or nasty. You sir, are disrespectful to every Union pilot out there. Prove me wrong.

She deserves special treatment, because she posts with only collateral knowledge. She has a right to post like I do, but has disrespected the largest group of employees with her statements at NJ, the rank and file employees.

Any pilot I know that is worth his salt would have never wrote what she wrote. They do respect what mechanics and rank and file employees do. I think you are twisting her words a bit here, and grasping at straws.

.....

 

[Ultra Grump]

I don't agree that you've ever proven me wrong.

However, I challenge you to prove me wrong now. I want to see if you agree that the wife of your NJ friend, isn't blowing smoke that she doesn't understand or know squat about.

Are you telling me that you agree with the statements?

She wrote:

"All those rank and file frac workers...personally, I prefer CA1900's term-- support folks...were free to be pilots if they had chosen to make that investment."

Prove me wrong.

Are you really saying that either (a) we, as pilots, did not choose to make the investment (either in military time served, or money) to become pilots; or (b) that the support folks did not choose not to make the investment to become professional pilots? Frankly, and quite simply, you are wrong.

She also wrote:

"support folks don't have to have a license from the FAA do they?"

Prove me wrong.

The only required licenses in in this discussion would be the appropriate pilot's certificate, dispatcher certificate, or A&P certificates. While we have certificated dispatchers and A&Ps working at NetJets, the company is required to have neither certificated dispatchers nor A&Ps. The dispatchers at NJA are there as a support function for the pilots, to streamline operations. They are not required by the FAA. The mechanics are likewise not required by the FAA, and could be outsourced since most of our maintenance is done by outside vendors nationwide anyway. It is great to have them here, but they are not required. You are, therefore, wrong.

She also wrote:

I bet they recognize that pilots have additional skills and experience that support folks don't have.

Prove me wrong.

Again, are you really trying to argue that the pilots at NJA don't have skills and experience that the rest of the support folks don't? Just as they lack the skills and experience we have, the support folks have skills and experience that the pilots don't have. Or are you going to argue that that is incorrect as well?

You are wrong.

Any pilot I know that is worth his salt would have never wrote what she wrote. They do respect what mechanics and rank and file employees do.

I respect what they do, and am very grateful that they are there to support the job that I do. That doesn't make any of the above any less true.

 

[XTW]

Another CS thread gone horribly hijacked into a NJ fest. Oh well.

 

[learflyer]

yadda yadda. gettin' sick of the boots. how's about a tube top?

 

[netjetwife]

Fischy and Grumpy, great posts and thanks for politely helping me to learn more about Bridgeway. LF, boots come in handy when you have to step over FUD puddles to get to the credible posts. It must be noted that those not trying to twist my words had no problem understanding the concept of career choice.

Fisch, thanks for the words about my husband. I'll pass them on. His integrity is very important to him; likewise, so are all the NJ families. That's why he donates so much of his free time to joint projects and we put up with his erratic schedule between meetings in CMH and flying the line.

As to the "cost" a military pilot pays for his type rating it can be measured in several ways. I'll ask for his answer, but the following are my own observations: The deaths of his friends and fellow pilots (one almost every assignment) are at the top of the list... Military flying comes with additional risks. We attended one funeral when I was 7 months pregnant. Our son jerked with every blast of the 21 gun salute. The F15 pilot left a toddler behind. Not hard to imagine how we felt, huh? Watching my husband pack for a 7 day trip is nothing compared to helping him go thru his chem gear before he left for combat in Iraq. The 17 moves had a lot to do with his decision to retire. He/we spent the first 5 yrs in an assignment field (ATC) not of his choosing before he got the F16. We also lived some places we'd have preferred to skip, but didn't get a choice. BTW, How much credit does my husband get for living in a shared tent in the Middle East? AF officers have to have a college degree and then get a Masters to be promoted past Major, so military pilots have that expense, too. Frac pilots work very hard, but the days of a sweaty "green bag", helmet head, and gas mask marks belong to my husband's past not his present. Military pilots do not get a "free ride".

I've heard of the difficulties and expense civilian pilots face to invest in their career. Neither group has it easy; both come with a steep price tag which must be considered when negotiating a frac pilot's salary--much like doctors and lawyers do when they cite their education costs as justification for the fee they charge. Frac pilots do essentially the same job and the wide disparity in the industry is just plain wrong. NJW

 

[netjetwife]

Another CS thread gone horribly hijacked into a NJ fest. Oh well.

Actually, I think all the fracs got mentioned. :0 Sorry XTW, I know full well how excited the CS pilots must be, but look at it this way. It's not a block party if the neighbors don't show up, and people do like to compare notes, you know. Besides, we're helping y'all pass the time until your first pay raise arrives.

In all seriousness, I think it just goes to show how inter-related the compensation issue is in the industry. Every pilotgroup that pulls up the sub-par wages contributes to the financial security and well-being of all involved. Congrats to the CS pilots and your families on the well-deserved raise! NJW

 

[fischman]

Another CS thread gone horribly hijacked into a NJ fest. Oh well.

I don't see a NJ fest, just NJ people making all the points for you. Kind of like how we raised the bar and got you all a raise. You're welcome.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Fisch, GF, did you think "rank and file employees" meant mechanics? I didn't. I took that to mean the folks who work in a supportive/administrative capacity not directly in operations.

Here is what I stated, so as usual she's trying to back out of the disrespect she showed to the other employees at Netjets with all of her usual gobbledegook.

"The real sacrifice comes from the rank and file employees that work equally hard to support the operation. Wages that would get spread more evenly throughout the company get dumped into the contract, and rank and file employees get the shaft because the payroll bucket doesn't change."

It was a clear statement that if you were not a contract employee, than you were rank and file. She doesn't have a shred of respect for those that are not pilots and have chosen a different career path in aviation.

She doesn't seem to understand that there are others in the company committed to other facets of aviation, to her, it's all about the pilots and all about them getting ALL the money and screw the rest.

Just like her statement about "winning" instead of negotiating a contract. She said that and tried to back out of that also. She wants 1108 to WIN, and not be fair within negotiations.

She says that her husband "volunteers", but yet he gets a stipend for time spent on union activites rather than flying and producing revenue for the company that signs his paycheck.

She likes to use the "FUD" line on me, yet she clearly doublespeaks all the time. It's all about pro-union propaganda and not about fairness to the company and the rest of the employees at NetJets.

 

[learflyer]

BTW NJW, just trying to keep things light around here.......I was expecting a chuckle or two....

 

[netjetwife]

LF, look up there at that pink laughing face in my post. But if more chuckles make you happy, I will gladly comply. ..... .......

I'm sorry that the thread topic is too heavy for your liking. Fudspinner insists on twisting my words and putting a spin on my post that was never there. In reality, I have a long record here of showing respect to all workers and encouraging all who are underpaid to speak up. My family sacrifices our own plans so that my husband can donate a considerable amount of his "time off" to work on joint projects that benefit everyone involved with NJA. Many of the readers know who I am and most can easily spot FUD when they see it. Gunfyter, who knows me, nailed it in his post. This is all about a Union Buster trying to drive a wedge between workers and he is trying to use me as a pawn for his despicable, manipulative purpose. That's no laughing matter, LF. However, the FACTS are that the relationship between NJ pilots and the rest of the company have never been better and my husband and I have an excellent reputation for being honest and respectful.

 

[CaveoFalco]

Once again B-19 you have not done your research. If you did you would know that any stipend paid to union volunteers is for loss of income due to volunteer work. In 2007 the average pilot at NJA received 15% wages in OT, Extended Days, and Holiday Pay, that was above their Section 27 base wages. By going to CMH to do such things as represent pilots, assist with development of Training Programs, assist with implementation of ASAP, and for that matter, assist with a litany of programs that make the Company much more profitable, those volunteers effectively take a 15% pay loss. Flight Pay Loss as the stipend is called, allows union volunteers to break even. From my understanding of the situation, all of the volunteers lose rather than gain monetarily.You won't find that on your usual research source Wikipedia. You have to do real research.

Your personal attacks on NJW, her life's philosophy, her thoughts on pilot value, her understanding of NJA do nothing but discredit yourself. I suspect you don't even know her so to say she has no respect for other NJA employees is clearly a red herring. I have read what she has written on this board, and never once has she said NJA pilots deserve all the money and "screw the rest" so that too is a red herring. In fact if you really did your research, you would know that the IBT1108 leadership played a significant role in the mechanics bargaining. That would be pilots helping maintainers. If you did your research you would also know that the relationship between IBT1108 and the Flight Attendant Union is strong and that the leadership of the Union has played a significant role in getting them a better contract. That would be pilots helping flight attendants. You won't find that on Wikipedia either so you better expand your research horizons. Sorry - momentary memory lapse - I forgot, you don't do research.

NJA was very pleased with the 2007 CBA as were much of the pilot group (75% voted yes). That makes it a Win-Win. I know that is not in your very limited vernacular but yes it is possible for both to win in negotiations. When the quarterly BH results come out soon, I would expect, based on the research that I have done to see another record quarter for NJA and BH. You won't find that on Wikipedia either so go do some real research.

It always cracks me up when you blame the Union for the fact that NJW's husband was furloughed from American Airlines. Did you every stop to think that maybe management should not have hired him in the first place? Go look at the AA seniority list. Look at how many pilots were hired after the business cycle took a downturn. Reality is AA management screwed the workers (all of them at AA). Why buy TWA? Stupid! AA management gave false hopes to the people of St Louis only to pull the rug out from under them. What did AA get with TWA? Aging airplanes that need replacement, a HUB they did not need which is now only frequented by Eagle which AMR is selling off, massive people integration issues, and a whole lot of debt. How many people were hired at AA on false promises, quit their previous jobs, packed up and moved to their AA hub, only to have AMR management screw the Company and steal from the employees. Go look at the different airframe types they had in the late 90's. It was 12 if memory serves me correctly. It took them way too long to realize the inefficiencies costing investors and all employees immensely. How many do they have now? Ever heard of Don Carty? He got the NJW boot from AMR and it was well deserved after stealing huge quantities of money in bonuses all the while asking for pay cuts from all employees. It was not APA that screwed AA it was AMR management. It is quite clear how poor AMR management really was. There was an AMR Manager that got hired at NJA and she too got the NJW boot for performance. Won't find that on Wikipedia either so go look at that research.

It is clear that in the debate battle with NJW you always lose so why bother? How do I know, I have done my research to know that personal attack is clear indicator of debate failure. It does make for entertaining reading though. How does it feel to get her black boot up your backside?

 

[Kuma]

What cost

Originally Posted by B19 Flyer
Let's me point out, that the person she is married to was trained by the US Goverment, and while I respect that he put his life on the line as I do all the former military pilots I work with and around every day, he, like them, didn't pay to become a pilot like the vast majority of the rest us had to. If he had to pay, would he have made the same choices?

B19-

I don't think that you have the first idea of what military pilots "pay" for their training. While a student pilot in a United States' school undergoes his training, he is still living the comfortable life afforded by the United States. He may not be rich, but cell phones, fast food, air conditioning, beds with mattresses, public facilities and other creature comforts are common place.

The military pilot, on the other hand has earned his experience in the regions of the world that many would never choose to live. In these regions, he is dealing with gun fire, warfare, genocide and other purely disgusting aspects of the human existence. He is living without running water, air conditioning, sanitation, the internet, living structures that actually have walls/floors, or many of the other intangibles that US citizens consider standard. He has moved his family across the country or across the globe so that he can best support our government, and ultimately our way of life.

This post is not calling into question any sacrifices that civilian pilot-want-to-be's may have made; simply, it is a counter to your statement that military pilots have not paid for their experience or time.

If you are this uneducated about the experiences and sacrifices of the average military pilot, I definitely question your credibility with respect to unions.

Kuma

 

[CA1900]

The military pilot, on the other hand has earned his experience in the regions of the world that many would never choose to live. In these regions, he is dealing with gun fire, warfare, genocide and other purely disgusting aspects of the human existence...

I dealt with all that as a regional pilot.

I overnighted in Detroit.

:laugh: