CS Pay

[netjetwife]

Another good analogy, GF. All those rank and file frac workers...personally, I prefer CA1900's term-- support folks...were free to be pilots if they had chosen to make that investment. Maybe they prefer being home with their families every night? Sleeping in their own beds? Being home on holidays? Not working a 14/10 schedule? Not being responsible for the lives of pax? Not having their license at risk every flight? Oh wait, support folks don't have to have a license from the FAA do they? I bet they recognize that pilots have additional skills and experience that support folks don't have because they're dealing with reality--not flinging FUD.

PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS RESPONSIBLE FOR LIVES AND SHOULD BE COMPENSATED ACCORDINGLY

 

[B19 Flyer]

Insulting and disrespectful piece of crap

Another good analogy, GF. All those rank and file frac workers...personally, I prefer CA1900's term-- support folks...were free to be pilots if they had chosen to make that investment.

Untrue. The best that I've seen are those that could not fly, or chose not to fly. They will run circles around most pilots with knowledge of the industry and more importantly, how to get things done. Without those people, not a single airplane flies. I can't believe the disrespect you have for the very people that keep pilots safe by making sure that the aircraft is mechanically sound, fueled properly and planned properly.


Maybe they prefer being home with their families every night? Sleeping in their own beds? Being home on holidays? Not working a 14/10 schedule?

Holidays? Who the hell do you think are there on the ground on those holidays keeping the operation going? Pilots are the only ones that work holidays? NOT!

Who picks up the slack when all it all breaks loose when the weather disrupts the operations? Who makes sure that pilots have transportation, are scheduled properly, have mechanically sound airplanes. Working mostly at night I might add and away from their families, on the road, in foreign countries, doing anything necessary to keep the airplane safe. Their work environment isn’t the pristine, clean location of a flight deck (not cleaned by the pilots I might add), a limousine or a hotel room.

Each function above keeps the pilot well rested and safe with a mechanically sound airplane. It is a direct impact on safety. When a union puts this in contract, who the hell do you think administrates it? Not the pilots, because if they did, they wouldn’t feel they needed to force their will on the rest of the company would they?

The pilot isn't the one fixing an airplane outdoors in Alaska or changing an engine in the desert is he? No, the pilot stays comfortable at the hotel and assumes the airplane will be fine when they arrive. The reason that pilots and passengers are safe in the tube, is because everybody else does their job because they too have made the efforts and have the training.

What an insulting person you are.

Not being responsible for the lives of pax? Not having their license at risk every flight? Oh wait, support folks don't have to have a license from the FAA do they?

Tell an A&P mechanic or 121 dispatcher that and see how far your husband gets next time he needs help. Boy, you are the most insulting piece of work I've ever seen on this board.


I bet they recognize that pilots have additional skills and experience that support folks don't have because they're dealing with reality--not flinging FUD.

I have a college education and hold multiple certificates and ratings with an appreciation that you don't have for the effort is takes to earn and hold them. Just because a pilot is in the airplane, doesn't mean that they have skills that ground people don't. As a matter of fact, the majority of pilots are like a fish out of water when adjusting to ground duties. As far as my experience is concerned, it's a lot harder on the ground than it is in the air. In the air, the pilot needs only worry about one flight at a time, their own. If the rest of the "support people" do their job, the pilot will never have a problem.

Your disrespect is astounding.


PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS RESPONSIBLE FOR LIVES AND SHOULD BE COMPENSATED ACCORDINGLY

You are not a pilot.

Being married to a pilot, isn't the same thing.

All you are is a wanna be that is riding the efforts of your husband.

I've walked the walk, have you?

www.unionfacts.com

Unbelievable disrespect, and for those NJ employees that read this, I hope that they bring this to the attention of those pilot and union leaders around so they understand that specific union supporters feel that rank and file employees are not needed.

You’re a piece of work…

One last thing, about CS pay:

There are non-union companies that get it done without having to pay union dues and put up with union turmoil.

 

[fischman]

Unbelievable disrespect, and for those NJ employees that read this, I hope that they bring this to the attention of those pilot and union leaders around so they understand that specific union supporters feel that rank and file employees are not needed.

You’re a piece of work…

One last thing, about CS pay:

There are non-union companies that get it done without having to pay union dues and put up with union turmoil.

B19,

You are talking about yourself, not NJW. You are the MOST disrespectful, hateful, nasty person I have ever had an exchange with.

Having said that, I enjoy proving you wrong on a daily basis.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19,

You are talking about yourself, not NJW. You are the MOST disrespectful, hateful, nasty person I have ever had an exchange with.

Having said that, I enjoy proving you wrong on a daily basis.

I don't agree that you've ever proven me wrong.

However, I challenge you to prove me wrong now. I want to see if you agree that the wife of your NJ friend, isn't blowing smoke that she doesn't understand or know squat about.

Are you telling me that you agree with the statements?


She wrote:

"All those rank and file frac workers...personally, I prefer CA1900's term-- support folks...were free to be pilots if they had chosen to make that investment."



Prove me wrong.


She also wrote:

"support folks don't have to have a license from the FAA do they?"

Prove me wrong.


She also wrote:

I bet they recognize that pilots have additional skills and experience that support folks don't have.

Prove me wrong.

Do you really agree with her statements above?

Let's me point out, that the person she is married to was trained by the US Goverment, and while I respect that he put his life on the line as I do all the former military pilots I work with and around every day, he, like them, didn't pay to become a pilot like the vast majority of the rest us had to. If he had to pay, would he have made the same choices?

In addition, a degree from any college isn't cheap, becoming an A & P or a dispatcher isn't cheap either, but they are included in the rank and file employees I am talking about and she is disrespecting. Take away any of them, the plane doesn't fly.

For the most part, you are going to have to go digging pretty deep to find a post where I have called somebody any kind of name even though they are leveled at me on a regular basis. Even now, I'm not calling names, but I'm being highly discriptive of my opinion on her lack of knowledge. She's clueless.

Because you don't agree with my stance on unions does not mean that I'm disrespectful or nasty.

She deserves special treatment, because she posts with only collateral knowledge. She has a right to post like I do, but has disrespected the largest group of employees with her statements at NJ, the rank and file employees.

Any pilot I know that is worth his salt would have never wrote what she wrote. They do respect what mechanics and rank and file employees do.

 

[netjetwife]

Fisch, you are exactly right. The FUD-Spinner is really reaching now. He can't argue with the truth that pilots are professionals who should be compensated as such so he's trying to twist my words. FUD..FUD..FUD..I merely suggested people have choices when it comes to pursuing a career, and I speculated on reasons why support personnel may not be interested in being a pilot. Pointing out that the unusual lifestyle isn't for everyone in no way diminishes the role played by the support team on the ground. False accusations go hand in hand with FUD! Read it in Confessions of a Union Buster.

GF, did you think "rank and file employees" meant mechanics? I didn't. I took that to mean the folks who work in a supportive/administrative capacity not directly in operations. It goes without saying how critical proper maintenance is to safety. I didn't think I had to spell that out to pilots... I guess I could have expanded on my holiday comment. I thought it was obvious, but to clarify, after their shift the support folks are home with their families while pilots spend the holiday in a hotel room. Not to mention, birthdays, anniversaries, family events, etc. that are frequently missed.

Fudspinner tried to claim that giving pilots a professional wage would "shaft" the "rank and file employees" who make the "real sacrifice". NJA pilots were told the same FUDamn thing. It didn't happen. His latest tirade FUD..FUD..FUD..goes on to attack those at home (spouses, for my opinions are shared by others) who truly do make the sacrifices that keep the planes in the air. When it comes to support on the ground, every frac pilot that is a spouse and a parent knows what I'm talking about. You also know that your family deserves to be compensated like other professional families who have: health care provided as a benefit; decent housing; reliable transportation; savings; college funds; money for extras, etc. Those are so common they're taken for granted by professionals, but many frac pilots can't complete the list... Frac families qualifying for govt assistance is WRONG and no amount of FUD can alter that fact! :angryfire

Yes, I'm a frac pilot's wife and as such am well qualified to offer the family perspective. My husband is a leader in 1108 and that gives me a front row seat that enables me to speak with credibility and knowledge about the only union in the frac industry. In contrast, Fudspinner's biased posts don't apply to 1108. I post here to offer support to those seeking a contract (another professional staple) and fair wages because my husband's FO salary qualified our kids for the "poor kid" lunch program at their public school and I can easily empathize with underpaid frac pilots. B19/FS posts here to spread misinformation and hate. I leave it to the discerning readers to decide whose posts they prefer. Suffice it to say, the encouraging PMs I receive are always appreciated...

BTW, for those who haven't heard, 1108 recently showed their appreciation to the support workers in CMH in a very tangible way. The gesture was well received and I was proud of 1108 leaders for reaching out to the other employees. I've heard that the NJA command center in CMH is a fascinating place and I hope that the kids and I can accompany my husband to a meeting there someday. One like yesterday's would be perfect. My husband said it was well worth pulling some pilots off the line. He thinks a video will be posted on Crew Ops.

Fudspinner's intimidation tactics won't work. The Executive Board and the MEC are familiar with my supportive posts and I've met some of those leaders personally. Additionally, all informed NJ employees are aware of the good relationship between the Union and the Company. Many know who NJW is married to. My family's name is well respected among the pilots and in CMH because we advocate fairness, respect for all employees, and a strong work ethic.
Slogging thru the FUD,
Netjetwife

PS Guitar Guy, it is getting very deep. You're right I might have to get some taller boots.... Does anyone have a pair of over-the-knee waders I can borrow?

 

[gunfyter]

19,

Want to collect pilots pay? ... get your ATP and start applying for the job.

Quit crying about it from your cubicle.

But that is not why you are here. As a Union-Buster your goal in this conversation is to create hate and discontent between Pilots and other workers.

 

[netjetwife]

Vocabulary help for the poster(s) in need of it

rank and file (term I responded to) 1.The enlisted troops, excluding noncommissioned officers, in an army.

In my 20 yrs as an officer's wife I met many enlisted troops and/or their wives. None of them expected the pay to be what a rated officer (pilot) was paid. We all know the enlisted troops make an important contribution, but economically speaking, they don't command the same salary as an officer/pilot. I doubt that the support workers (with an equivalent enlisted position) at a fractional company view it any differently. Those not barred from flying (physical limitations are obviously another story) know they could have pursued it had they wanted to.

2. The people who form the major portion of a group, organization, or society, excluding the leaders and officers.

rank and file - the ordinary members of an organization

Among ground/support workers, upper management and those with special skills are not, by definition, among rank and file workers that were mentioned by B19 even though he tried to include them after my response. In fact, those he subsequently mentioned as having skills on par with pilots would probably be paid as well, if not better, especially if they were in Options management. After all, they aren't known for their respect to pilots there....

Readers, Gunfyter used the correct definition in his analogy of nurses and doctors. Noting the economic reality that nurses are paid less than doctors is not disrespectful. Nor is my suggestion that ordinary support workers (without highly specialized skills) should not be paid as much as a pilot. For example, it is wrong when FAs make more than pilots. Pilots can quickly learn how to fill in for most rank and file workers. But the support staff can't be trained to fly a jet in the same amount of time, and competitive hours are built up over years.

I have posted before (but it is worth repeating) that I don't think any worker at a frac should be paid less than the going rate for their position. I encourage every underpaid worker to stand up for his/herself. Naturally, I can identify more strongly with frac pilots/families and the problems they face with unfair compensation.

GIVE BLUE COLLAR WAGES THE BOOT! PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS AND SHOULD BE COMPENSATED AS SUCH!

 

[fischman]

I don't agree that you've ever proven me wrong. Remember all the times I told you about The fantastic working relationship between management and the 1108 leadership? Every time I told you about that I was provnig you wrong.

However, I challenge you to prove me wrong now. I want to see if you agree that the wife of your NJ friend, isn't blowing smoke that she doesn't understand or know squat about.

Are you telling me that you agree with the statements?


She wrote:

"All those rank and file frac workers...personally, I prefer CA1900's term-- support folks...were free to be pilots if they had chosen to make that investment." This is America. We all make choices in life. That is not meant to be insulting. Being a pilot is part of the life I have chosen. That means I know that I am not always going to be there on Christmas morning with my kids. It sucks, but is the life I chose. The folks at Bridgeway did the same.



Prove me wrong.


She also wrote:

"support folks don't have to have a license from the FAA do they?" Partially correct. Schedulers, VP's, Flight Managers, etc do not require an FAA license. Of course the dispatchers, A&P's do.

Prove me wrong.


She also wrote:

I bet they recognize that pilots have additional skills and experience that support folks don't have. Some of the folks at Bridgeway hold pilot ratings. I would wager that not many of them are above a Commercial certificate, and MOST of them do not hold type ratings.

Prove me wrong.

Do you really agree with her statements above?

Let's me point out, that the person she is married to was trained by the US Goverment, and while I respect that he put his life on the line as I do all the former military pilots I work with and around every day, he, like them, didn't pay to become a pilot like the vast majority of the rest us had to. If he had to pay, would he have made the same choices? I personally know NJW's husband. He is one of the MOST honorable men I know, and can not express the joy I experience knowing he is representing me and my family. On the other hand, I did not choose the military route and spent $70,000 getting my ratings. Only he can answer that question.

In addition, a degree from any college isn't cheap, becoming an A & P or a dispatcher isn't cheap either, but they are included in the rank and file employees I am talking about and she is disrespecting. According to http://www.sheffield.com/prices.htmlhttp://www.sheffield.com/prices.html it costs about $4,600 to earn a Dispatcher Certificate. A basic A&P certificate from AmericanAirmen is $975. http://www.americanairman.com/website/01google/03_01_apcourse.htm?gclid=CLjbmpb455ECFQUYlwod-BHifg#5 That is a far cry from the $70,000 I spent. Also consider the costs for NetJets to keep me current. Take away any of them, the plane doesn't fly. No arguement there.

For the most part, you are going to have to go digging pretty deep to find a post where I have called somebody any kind of name even though they are leveled at me on a regular basis. Even now, I'm not calling names, but I'm being highly discriptive of my opinion on her lack of knowledge. She's clueless.

Because you don't agree with my stance on unions does not mean that I'm disrespectful or nasty. You sir, are disrespectful to every Union pilot out there. Prove me wrong.

She deserves special treatment, because she posts with only collateral knowledge. She has a right to post like I do, but has disrespected the largest group of employees with her statements at NJ, the rank and file employees.

Any pilot I know that is worth his salt would have never wrote what she wrote. They do respect what mechanics and rank and file employees do. I think you are twisting her words a bit here, and grasping at straws.

.....

 

[Ultra Grump]

I don't agree that you've ever proven me wrong.

However, I challenge you to prove me wrong now. I want to see if you agree that the wife of your NJ friend, isn't blowing smoke that she doesn't understand or know squat about.

Are you telling me that you agree with the statements?

She wrote:

"All those rank and file frac workers...personally, I prefer CA1900's term-- support folks...were free to be pilots if they had chosen to make that investment."

Prove me wrong.

Are you really saying that either (a) we, as pilots, did not choose to make the investment (either in military time served, or money) to become pilots; or (b) that the support folks did not choose not to make the investment to become professional pilots? Frankly, and quite simply, you are wrong.

She also wrote:

"support folks don't have to have a license from the FAA do they?"

Prove me wrong.

The only required licenses in in this discussion would be the appropriate pilot's certificate, dispatcher certificate, or A&P certificates. While we have certificated dispatchers and A&Ps working at NetJets, the company is required to have neither certificated dispatchers nor A&Ps. The dispatchers at NJA are there as a support function for the pilots, to streamline operations. They are not required by the FAA. The mechanics are likewise not required by the FAA, and could be outsourced since most of our maintenance is done by outside vendors nationwide anyway. It is great to have them here, but they are not required. You are, therefore, wrong.

She also wrote:

I bet they recognize that pilots have additional skills and experience that support folks don't have.

Prove me wrong.

Again, are you really trying to argue that the pilots at NJA don't have skills and experience that the rest of the support folks don't? Just as they lack the skills and experience we have, the support folks have skills and experience that the pilots don't have. Or are you going to argue that that is incorrect as well?

You are wrong.

Any pilot I know that is worth his salt would have never wrote what she wrote. They do respect what mechanics and rank and file employees do.

I respect what they do, and am very grateful that they are there to support the job that I do. That doesn't make any of the above any less true.

 

[XTW]

Another CS thread gone horribly hijacked into a NJ fest. Oh well.