letter from retired AAA captain

[Tweaker]

If the politics are against you the representation doesn't matter because your still going to be hung.

ALPA doesn't help those it doesn't like if the company wants you gone.

A private lawyer is the only chance someone in trouble on the wrong side has.

I second this post from first hand experience and 10 other similar situations 2nd hand. That being said, USAPA seems like a big mistake. Little to no upside, HUGE negatives.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You're 100% right. And look at the Abortion of an airline Johnny O. has created. All that testifying before congress sure has done alot for those pilots and their contract. Same thing for Pinnacle. Those guys deserve better. ALPA is the wrong tool for the job.

Wrong again... you have no clue how WashDC functions and how associations like ALPA work in DC. And where groups like mesa and PCL are in all of this...

We're back to playing the "what if" game? Stay on track here, Rez.

C'mon... I am trying to bring the discussion up... not dumb it down...

So you think Duane Worthless would have taken the post on a CRJ captain's salary? I find the very idea laughable! By the way, where is Worthless these days? He sure cut and ran after he got his. I thought he would have still held an ALPA position out of the kindness of his heart! Duane Woerth is synonymous with Sack O' Sh!t

He lost a democratic election. Your post is reflective of you.

Reduce the bennies and pay. That's my answer, Rez. I have provided one whether you agree to it or not.

All you have done is provided a irresponsible thought with no pragmatic solution, objective thought or critical analysis. Can you explain, HOW a reduction in pay and benefits would work?

Now, I am asking YOU (Not rhetorically either) What do you do when both choices are losers, like our upcoming Presidential election?

Align expectations. I wouldn't expect Obama or Macain to be more than they are. Unlike you, who thinks ALPA should be more than it is... and of course its not because ALPA is not living up to its potential... its just that you have no clue how the gov't, companies and unions exist in the national and international industry.

But you could... if you'd take ownership in this profession. Particate in self governement, reject the victim status you and so many have claimed for yourselves and envoke positive change...

in fact... the profession is counting on you...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

A private lawyer is the only chance someone in trouble on the wrong side has.

I second this post from first hand experience and 10 other similar situations 2nd hand. That being said, USAPA seems like a big mistake. Little to no upside, HUGE negatives.

I've seen from the other side....

Pilots hires big time lawyer who didn't know much about the RLA and labor law. ALPA lawyer schooled him. Pilot wasted his cash.... Of course pilot was an arrogant punk who thought he was smart...


Funny... many pilots state that ALPA defends those that should be fired. Keeps loosers employed.. and then post like these who say ALPA doesn't keep pilots job if they don't want to....

DFR?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Wrong again... you have no clue how WashDC functions and how associations like ALPA work in DC.
If you say so...as Thomas Reed said:

One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation.

And where groups like mesa and PCL are in all of this...
Yeah, they're at the back of the bus with some of the best perks in the industry!
He lost a democratic election...
And rightfully so. But where is he today? I for sure thought he would have been serving the industry in some capacity or another, perhaps spearheading one of those oh-so effective picket lines. Oh, wait...he was just serving himself at the expense of all the pilots who pay into ALPA! Now he's off on his, as you have said, well deserved retirement. Meanwhile some of his peers are looking for work in their retirement.
Can you explain, HOW a reduction in pay and benefits would work? A hungry dog will fight harder. Heck, even tie his compensation to his performance. He wants a payraise...he can get one by helping negotiate the payraises of different pilot groups.
Unlike you, who thinks ALPA should be more than it is... and of course its not because ALPA is not living up to its potential... its just that you have no clue how the gov't, companies and unions exist in the national and international industry.
Pay, Benefits, and Schedule brother! Some Unions do fight for these things...you know. ALPA is what it is: An ineffective political tool.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wrong again... you have no clue how WashDC functions and how associations like ALPA work in DC.
If you say so...as Thomas Reed said:

One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation.

Wow that is deep. Do you hope to use illegal force to gain your objectives?

And where groups like mesa and PCL are in all of this...
Yeah, they're at the back of the bus with some of the best perks in the industry!

Again... misguided.... there is a process for mesa and pcl. its not congressional testimony

He lost a democratic election...
And rightfully so. But where is he today?

Does it matter? Is he supposed to be somehwere? Doing what? What are his obligations?

I for sure thought

Of course you thought... you do think allot I'll give you that...

he would have been serving the industry in some capacity or another, perhaps spearheading one of those oh-so effective picket lines. Oh, wait...he was just serving himself at the expense of all the pilots who pay into ALPA!

In what capacity?

Now he's off on his, as you have said, well deserved retirement. Meanwhile some of his peers are looking for work in their retirement.

Did I say he deserved his retirement? I said he lost an election.

Can you explain, HOW a reduction in pay and benefits would work? A hungry dog will fight harder. Heck, even tie his compensation to his performance. He wants a payraise...he can get one by helping negotiate the payraises of different pilot groups.

I didn't know the average line pilot with 15 days off is hungry. Why would an avg. line pilot leave his flying job and take a paycut to become ALPA Prez, only to be taken for granted by unappreciative fellow pilots...??

Tie it to performance? Based on pay raises of pilot groups. again... you don't understand how the system works.... get informed and I'll be glad to discuss the issues...

Unlike you, who thinks ALPA should be more than it is... and of course its not because ALPA is not living up to its potential... its just that you have no clue how the gov't, companies and unions exist in the national and international industry.
Pay, Benefits, and Schedule brother! Some Unions do fight for these things...you know. ALPA is what it is: An ineffective political tool.

The doesn't serve you based on how you think you should be served....

but you won't do a thing until ALPA acts more like you think they should...

Its all convienently justified in your own mind....

 

[CopilotDoug]

Rez, ALPO is broken...hardcore. They haven't been able to adapt quick enough...and they are weak. It's time to kick the crutch out from underneath this crippled Union. I'm pulling for USAPA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, ALPO is broken...hardcore. They haven't been able to adapt quick enough...and they are weak. It's time to kick the crutch out from underneath this crippled Union. I'm pulling for USAPA.

yet you can't provide critical analysis of why.

You operate on emotion...

 

[CopilotDoug]

yet you can't provide critical analysis of why.

You operate on emotion...

Incorrect...as usual. To be expected of ALPA cheerleaders.

 

[MK82Man]

The sad aspect of this whole debate is that USAPA seeks to gain at someone else's expense, a fellow pilot’s expense, IE the pilots of America West. Someone said it was a war, well not like Desert Storm, but their will be casualties to pilot/gate agents/ramp workers/mechanics/reservation agent’s families as the East tries to benefit their lot at the West’s expense. They seem willing to throw the entire carrier under the bus … it is mindless.

If they had waited until we got the merger put together and then started a campaign to throw out ALPA that would be one thing. The East only cranked up USAPA as a way to try to overturn the Nic award. They want a do-over to binding Federal Arbitration. They seek to throw out ALPA (the East MEC and LEC reps seemed very happy with ALPA up until May of 2007 … no recall drives or a chorus of “let’s get rid of ALPA”) as a way to cheat the America West pilots out of what we both signed up too -- Federal Binding Arbitration. Now if USAPA wins, 1800 guys out West are not going to call the cheaters: "union brothers and sisters" ... it just doesn't work that way. This was a merger, where you work in fairness to try to put the ship on the right course. The East only wants their course, the way they see it. Their pilot demands (as the best paid pilots in the industry for years) did not help the financial situation at the old US Air. Now they want someone else to continue to pay the bill they can’t fund. They look for a scapegoat. ALPA ain’t perfect, but get involved to fix it. I’m tired of hearing from East posters how ALPA was responsible for this and that … no, your LECs and MECs are responsible for the direction at your carrier and are your messengers to National to change National policy. It ain’t ALPA National’s fault.

Throwing darts from the sidelines never works in a democracy. USAPA is doomed from the start. ALPA will not embrace USAPA; they’ve already stated they won’t provide services. So management wins again and the pilots lose. The East pilot’s want to make chump change over a few months and has now let 2 years go by where we could have been moving forward as a collective group with real monetary gains. So nearsighted these USAPA cheerleaders.

So all the East guys that see USAPA as their “savior” are looking thru rose-colored glasses. USAPA will severely dent this carrier and stagnation will result for no less than 4/5 years. Of course, that is part of the East’s plan. Stagnation benefits them as they upgrade and benefit from the merger while the West does not. How will USAPA function when 1800 guys don’t pay dues and the West sues … ?

Management is going to want to re-negotiate everything. They’ll seek to enforce the transition agreement and all existing agreements while the whole thing is hammered out. If you think it will take less than five years, you deserve to be drug tested. No to USAPA. No to a do-over of the Nic Award. We need to move forward not backward.

 

[TurboAWD]

Same thing for Pinnacle. Those guys deserve better. ALPA is the wrong tool for the job.

Actually, Pinnacle is an good example of why ALPA is the right tool for the job. There is NO WAY an airline the size of Pinnacle, with the amount of turnover they have could ever afford to do what they do on their own.

ALPA will bring Mesa and Pinnacle up to the level of their peers.

And anyone who thinks SWA is so great due to their independent union is nuts. With all due respect to their organization, how many considered SWA the place to be pre-9/11. How bad did the SWA employees get shafted during the 1113(c) process?

Oh, wait....

Turbo

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Incorrect...as usual. To be expected of ALPA cheerleaders.

My post was springboard for you to use the best of your cirtical thought... and example of critical thought is post 49 and 50.... not 48.

 

[PCL_128]

Incorrect...as usual. To be expected of ALPA cheerleaders.

Prove him wrong. Where is your objective analysis? Where are your answers to his questions? All we see from you is uncontrolled emotion. Such is typical of the anti-ALPA set.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

All the East and West guys will have an opportunity to vote on who they want to represent them.

Thats the democratic process at work.

If the majority of the combined ( East + West) pilots decide they want USAPA to be their bargaining agent...then they will also have an opportunity to vote on a constitution...

...again...the democratic process at work.

Best of luck to both groups eventually becoming one

 

[JoeMerchant]

Today, airline brands for both passenger and all-cargo operations have
developed elaborate strategies to get pilots who work for separate companies
with separate contracts and seniority lists to compete for work within the
brand on a "lowest-bid" basis. Of all the challenges vexing us in the first
years of the 21st Century, this may be the greatest.

The Bilateral Scope Impact Committee's report that went to the Executive
Board was embraced and acclaimed for good reason. It cut to the heart of the
matter and succinctly stated the obvious: job security and career
progression opportunities are two sides of the same coin. Against an airline
brand management strategy, only a counter strategy by the pilots within the
brand to deal with both issues together has any chance of succeeding.

If we want to stop erosion of ALPA pay standards, we must deal with job
security and career progression as a single issue. A combination of fences
and bridges will be required. If we accept the status quo, the race to the
bottom will continue.

If we stop pointing fingers and start joining hands, some group of pilots
within some brand will be the first to develop a prototype model that stops
the bleeding. It is said that "necessity" is the mother of invention. With
all the pain, with all the bloodshed within our ranks, we should have all
the "necessity" we need to invent something new to stop the whipsawing.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Who wrote it Joe?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Who wrote it Joe?

Do you agree with it? How are WE doing? How is ALPA doing?

You seem to like to answer with questions.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It maybe one of the greatest... and I agree with it... I think brand scope has merit....

 

[JoeMerchant]

It maybe one of the greatest... and I agree with it... I think brand scope has merit....

....then what happened....why can't the greatest union implement it? It's kinda like Obama.....If you can't implement it....then you have a problem.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

....then what happened....why can't the greatest union implement it? It's kinda like Obama.....If you can't implement it....then you have a problem.....

Obviously you don't have all answers.....

but alpa still sucks..... right?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Obviously you don't have all answers.....

but alpa still sucks..... right?

.....ALPA can choose to start solving some of it's biggest problems, scope and mergers, or it can suffer the consequences......Lawsuits and decertification drives....The choice belongs to you ALPA cheerleaders....

Prove us wrong Rez....Go back to Herndon and change things....or not.....