NWA, Delta pilot clash blocking merger

[filejw]

The trouble with not using DOH as a basis is you end up putting younger guys a head of older folks and effectively lock them out for their entire career.

 

[PuffDriver]

I have our MEC T.A. comparison and the National ALPA NWA/DAL Merger Analysis. Contracts are still very close. Pay at NWA maybe 8-10% lower but a frozen pension because of that. NWA has much better sick leave and Disability Retirement. Over the last 20 years the contracts are so similar. Had it not been for the NWA '98 strike, UAL and DAL wouldn't have had the opportunity to get the big raises they did. I showed the documents to a couple local DAL guys and they seemed surprised at all the info I had. And was my experience in the Reserves with all the airline guys, the DAL guys were usually the least knowledgeable on industry comparisons or less informed from their MEC.

Well I am not one of them. I am not even one who advocates throwing it around in somebody's face. I merely respond to what is put out there, and what sparse posted:

Thanks to the spineless members of the Delta MEC, the NWA pilots will be the only Delta pilots to have a defined benefit retirement plan in place. I hate to say it but the Delta pilots will get what they negotiate for, and based on the outcome of the past few years, they will get little.

is out of line. The loss of the pension was coming, and we maximized the return for it. I didn't want to lose it either, or give up more scope, so I voted no. These wiener measuring contests serve no purpose, and only serve to divide groups which would be forced to live with each other. Much has been made with the fact that NWA pilots will have to be brought up to our contract. We could go back and forth on specifics. You mention sick leave retirement, and disability. Try just about every other aspect of our contracts are much superior at Delta. Your strike was not the catalyst for the great contracts for Delta and United either.

Delta had a clause in section 3 of our contract which literally allowed us to park a/c coming onto the property if we did not achieve a favorable agreement on pay and work rules. As it turned out, management ended up having to defer the 777 delivery as they did not want to have to park a brand new aircraft when it appeared as if it were to happen. Soon after, industry flooring rates and some work rule changes were set for both the 777 and the 767-400. This created what United called the Delta dot, a springboard from which their huge contract was launched. We followed in suit with our c2K, both of which set the industry on its ear.

I don't know which documents you are in possession of, but I will happily go toe to toe with you if you wish. I will agree that I wish the Delta pilots were somewhat more informed and a bit more on the militant side, but all things considered, I would say that we are batting better than average with the hand that we have been dealt.

How about we all just sit tight and see what happens tomorrow, you do know about tomorrow don't you?

 

[Freight Dog]

How about DAL merge with Skywest: Are you in favor of relative seniority?

Skywest pilot does not have any career expectations to fly an MD88 or B-737's at Skywest. Furthermore, 2nd year DAL FO makes about the same money as a CRJ captain at Skywest. Therefore, Skywest pilots would probably wind up at the bottom of the list.

You know, ALPA merger policy isn't that difficult to understand.

 

[DTW320]

How about we all just sit tight and see what happens tomorrow, you do know about tomorrow don't you?

General Lee puts up another 100 posts on FI?

 

[Schwanker]

Skywest pilot does not have any career expectations to fly an MD88 or B-737's at Skywest. Furthermore, 2nd year DAL FO makes about the same money as a CRJ captain at Skywest. Therefore, Skywest pilots would probably wind up at the bottom of the list.

You know, ALPA merger policy isn't that difficult to understand.

OK, I get it. But I should give up my expectations to be CA on the 744 or 787. Now you make sense!

Schwanker

 

[PuffDriver]

General Lee puts up another 100 posts on FI?

Good one

 

[michael707767]

OK, I get it. But I should give up my expectations to be CA on the 744 or 787. Now you make sense!

no, you should not give up that expectation. Nor should I give up my expectation to be an ER captain in a couple of years and retire as a 777 captain.

 

[800Dog]

The trouble with not using DOH as a basis is you end up putting younger guys a head of older folks and effectively lock them out for their entire career.

You are confusing DOH with DOB. Big difference!

 

[justin15e]

The trouble with not using DOH as a basis is you end up putting younger guys a head of older folks and effectively lock them out for their entire career.

So instead, you think it's fair to take someone who has say 20% seniority at one company and push them back to say 30% seniority at the merged company? How is that fair to them?

If your worried about younger guys getting ahead of older guys, then shouldn't you use DOB as a seniority list. Would that be fair? Obviously not.

In reality, there isn't a good solution to this whole problem.

Perhaps NWA guys can buy a few hundred of their top guys into early retirement and it will perhaps even the score a bit.

 

[JOPILOT]

:angryfire :beer:

 

[filejw]

So instead, you think it's fair to take someone who has say 20% seniority at one company and push them back to say 30% seniority at the merged company? How is that fair to them?

If your worried about younger guys getting ahead of older guys, then shouldn't you use DOB as a seniority list. Would that be fair? Obviously not.

In reality, there isn't a good solution to this whole problem.

Perhaps NWA guys can buy a few hundred of their top guys into early retirement and it will perhaps even the score a bit.

What I'm saying after 4 mergers is that all a pilot brings to a merger is his union membership and how long he has worked for the airline. That seems to be the only true measure of his or hers contribution to the merger. Anything else is pure speculation and or greed. ALPA should have had a method set in stone years ago.

 

[michael707767]

What I'm saying after 4 mergers is that all a pilot brings to a merger is his union membership and how long he has worked for the airline. That seems to be the only true measure of his or hers contribution to the merger.

I would say the only thing a pilot brings to a merger is his current seat. Thats the only thing thats sure. The same amount of time could be worth a 757 captain at one airline, but only a 737 FO at another. Do you really think those two are equal?

 

[jke406]

Had it not been for the NWA '98 strike, UAL and DAL wouldn't have had the opportunity to get the big raises they did.

That and five bucks will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. It certainly won't get you anything in your merger.

 

[sleeves]

WHY not DOH??? Totally fair.... You can not help when you were born, when you could have gotten your pilot ratings

Somethings you can not CONTROL

DOH most fair !!! No dog in fight here

DOH is not fair. If I am 1/3 up a llist why should I not be approximatively 1/3 the way up a combined list.

Percentage is the only fair way to combine a list.

 

[densoo]

Thanks to the spineless members of the Delta MEC, the NWA pilots will be the only Delta pilots to have a defined benefit retirement plan in place. I hate to say it but the Delta pilots will get what they negotiate for, and based on the outcome of the past few years, they will get little.

Did Delta pilots take one year's annual salary, distributed to their 401Ks and IRAs over a 3 year period, in exchange for giving up their DB retirement?