DAL/NWA Combination....should regional guys be worried?

[~~~^~~~]

Bill - Since you're the Boss - let me put a "Executive Overview" on the cover of my TPS report.

-if they are parked it will likely be after the operational integration (nobody will do anything until DOJ approves and the ink is dry), at which point it is job losses for the combined list. Even if there are fences, if the DC9 jobs go away those pilots slot in where their seniority would hold.

The issue is not the DC9's per se , but there is no replacement acft named yet.

Now a quote during NWA's last Quarterly Earnings Call with their CEO:

Ray Neidl - Calyon Securities
Yeah, just to clarify with the DC9 fleets' shrinking and you having the big jump with RJ usage. Is there some point you might back up against some restraints and just go up close restrictions with just your pilots?
Douglas Steenland
No.

Over and over again the investors asked about the DC-9. Over and over NWA management made it clear that the RJ's are coming and are not restricted.

NWA's MEC thinks they have this covered with a bi-lateral flow through (again to keep the side door for "preferred" candidates). I'm not so sure. Flow through agreements are a future promise that the airline might, or might not, be able to keep in this age of musical operating certificates.

Our MEC's and the Company are at the table. There is an opportunity to fix scope, if there is the desire to fix it.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I have had enough of your whining John....

Good for you. Want a medal? Just don't read then.

You were offered "into the fold" in 1999, but it wasn't good enough, DOH must stand according to your group.....

Not good enough for me? No that would have been fine with me, but nobody asked my opinion. In fact, I don't recall any official merger offer from ALPA nor a vote.

When did this flying become YOUR property?? You are hired help plain and simple......a subcontractor. When your paycheck says DELTA on it, then it's your flying.

I'd love for my check to say Delta. Delta assimilated ASA's above and below wing operations staff, why not flight crews?

You want to feed your children??? APPLY TO A LARGE CARRIER THAT PAYS WELL....listen again...APPLY TO A LARGE CARRIER THAT PAYS WELL....never in the history of aviation was it understood that a regional was a career move. SO you want a mainline paycheck??.......APPLY TO A LARGE CARRIER THAT PAYS WELL....

Hmmm. How many DAYS would it take your carrier (Delta) to go bankrupt if every regional pilot suddenly quit or got hired. and hiring at a rate of 500 per year times 6 legacy carriers, how many years will it take for ALL of us to get hired? There simply aren't spots available for all of us, so your argument is not valid.

Regarding ASA not being a career, well, don't tell that to the 20 year ASA pilots. What you mean to say is that it's not an acceptable career for YOU, a Mighty Double Breasted Delta Pilot. Oh, and I guess they told you in your indoc that you were "allowed" to call it a career airline, right.

This egotistical jerk isn't going to stand by and let you think you can post your claim to any flying you seem fit and then expect me to fight my management for it.....forget it, your kids can starve!!!

Yes, you sir are an egotistical jerk. Thanks for your opinion on regional pilots, loser.

 

[~~~^~~~]

You should have nailed him on the "PAYS WELL." Here's Pennecamp's current rates v/s NWA if he made the jump.

ASA
YR-HR
2008-$75
2009-$78
2010-$81
2011-$84 up to $104 an hour

NWA
YR-HR
2008-$30
2009-$58
2010-$70
2011-$72 tops at $85 an hour, $98 on the 757 until he upgrades

 

[John Pennekamp]

You should have nailed him on the "PAYS WELL." Here's Pennecamp's current rates v/s NWA if he made the jump.

ASA
YR-HR
2008-$75
2009-$78
2010-$81
2011-$84 up to $104 an hour

NWA
YR-HR
2008-$30
2009-$58
2010-$70
2011-$72 tops at $85 an hour, $98 on the 757 until he upgrades

Good point.

I made $78K last year as an ATR captain and stand to break $100k this year. And that's for 85 hours a month and never flying more than 300 miles or one state away. I'd say my dollar per unit of work ratio is WAY higher than Mr King Sh-t Bill Lumberg. But no, I need to go to an airline that "pays well". Because a Mighty Double Breasted Delta Pilot told me I'm not allowed to call a regional airline a "career". That might damage his view of what his career is, since I didn't have to work 1/4 as hard to get here as he did.

 

[mcjohn]

a Mighty Double Breasted Delta Pilot.

:laugh:

 

[PuffDriver]

Good point.

I made $78K last year as an ATR captain and stand to break $100k this year. And that's for 85 hours a month and never flying more than 300 miles or one state away. I'd say my dollar per unit of work ratio is WAY higher than Mr King Sh-t Bill Lumberg. But no, I need to go to an airline that "pays well". Because a Mighty Double Breasted Delta Pilot told me I'm not allowed to call a regional airline a "career". That might damage his view of what his career is, since I didn't have to work 1/4 as hard to get here as he did.

You need to lose the chip. You are feed, no more no less. You may not like the title, but that's what it is. Delta, NWA, Delta/NWA has it's choice of who feeds it. They are not going to get away with merging without the blessing of the two MECs. Period. In short, your opinion matters 0. The mainline pilot's opinions do.

You are feed. You feed mainline. You take people to them or from them. You work at the pleasure of whatever scope clause the mainline negotiates. It doesn't make you any less of a person. It doesn't make you any less of a pilot. It is what it is. You and fins need to get it through noggins. The lists were not merged because they were not required to be merged. Even in Comair's own contract, subsidiaries were allowed to exist without a list merger. I'm sure that ASA language had similar language. Operational integration is more than just little bottles of water and napkins. it is more than Delta flight control picking up a phone and asking ASA flight control if they could spare a flight. While little bottles of water and napkins with a widget may be sufficient enough in your little mind to entitle you to the benefits and equipment Delta pilots have, it indeed is not, as settled in court.

Get over it. You are feed. Delta can go anywhere for feed. Delta cannot go anywhere for mainline service. They must go through the Delta pilot work force

All Delta flying belongs to the Delta pilots with noted exceptions as dictated by the Delta PWA. That PWA gets renegotiated and is subject to more Delta owned flying or less Delta flying. You have no control over it. The Delta pilots do.

Deal with it. it is your lot in life, until you choose to go elsewhere.

 

[PuffDriver]

You should have nailed him on the "PAYS WELL." Here's Pennecamp's current rates v/s NWA if he made the jump.

ASA
YR-HR
2008-$75
2009-$78
2010-$81
2011-$84 up to $104 an hour

NWA
YR-HR
2008-$30
2009-$58
2010-$70
2011-$72 tops at $85 an hour, $98 on the 757 until he upgrades

So you're just going to leave the wide body scales out? and the B fund? You are notorious for leaving all pertinent information out.

 

[Sedona16]

You should have nailed him on the "PAYS WELL." Here's Pennecamp's current rates v/s NWA if he made the jump.

ASA
YR-HR
2008-$75
2009-$78
2010-$81
2011-$84 up to $104 an hour

NWA
YR-HR
2008-$30
2009-$58
2010-$70
2011-$72 tops at $85 an hour, $98 on the 757 until he upgrades

Fins, where are you getting "up to $104 an hour" for 2011 for ASA? I see $84 for eleventh year captain pay ($79 if its not a 70 seater). I also think it should be pointed out that third year "2010" FO pay at Delta (which is probably closer to what a merged DAL/NWA pay rate) will be for the 737-8 is $89/hr. Fouth year 91, fifth year 94. Adjusted for the extra 11% automaticaly put into a delta pilots account for retirement and minimum 1.5% raises (might be more depending on company margins) that the ASA guy doesnt get the true compensation is more accurately paid as follow: third year= $101/hr, fourth year = $103/hr, Fifth year = $106/hr.

These rates are at all time lows for Delta and should get better and there apears to be growth once again at the majors. Look for the regionals to slowly shrink and pay to stay roughly the same because they dont have the arguement of a "double breasted detla pilot" to make up for the recent 46% plus pay cuts that went into affect less than two years ago. Food for thought. I have to laugh when all thest RJ guys spout off about boat loads of money and its a better deal than a major. Even short term the money at Delta is better. Long term there is not even any comparison. This doesnt even factor in better work rules and less work overall at a major on a day to day basis. That is not to say a third year guy at a major will have the same schedule he has as a senior regional captain but it is short sighted to only look at that factor for three years when you might be doing this for 25, 35, or 40 more years for some.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins, where are you getting "up to $104 an hour" for 2011 for ASA?

Ran both the ASA and NWA pay to contractual max on narrow body equipment. Sorry if my post was confusing... I meant "up to" the max on the equipment he could hold.

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/asa.html

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/northwest.html

Based on the numbers published here on B Plan:
NWA- B-plan for new hires is a flat 5% contribution, rising to 8%
ASA - 401K - 75% of first 6% pilot contribution (at 7 years longevity)

NWA was used since John Pennekamp's interest was mostly in NWA and he lives in a NWA base.

Delta certainly has a better contract for new hires than NWA does.

 

[~~~^~~~]

So you're just going to leave the wide body scales out? and the B fund? You are notorious for leaving all pertinent information out.

NWA pilots (who know more than I do about NWA bidding) say Widebody FO is senior to the Narrow Body Captain positions.

The B Fund for NWA is no great shakes that I've seen. Both airlines have various "soft money" options in profit sharing, stock, etc...

The point is that John Pennekamp's decision (if he has made a decision) to stay at a "regional" has financial legitimacy when compared with the Legacy he was most interested in.

Everyone tries to brand regional pilots as something less than professional pilots. Financially, that arguement does not have nearly the merit it used to - they have moved the bar up while NWA's MEC had to do what they had to do (I guess) in bankruptcy.

I certainly hope it gets better for all of us.

P.S. You have an impressive memory for details regarding operational integration. Even I had almost forgot about operating Delta sections back in the ATR days.

 

[~~~^~~~]

*Chortle*

EVERYBODY "get's it"! A few of us (Hint: You) seem to believe it comes free, like egg rolls at Wok & Roll...or that the price to be paid for it should be borne by somebody other than you.

The benefit has never been in dispute. The fact that you and your (previous) brothers were willing to do our flying for less has never been in dispute.

The dispute has always been about who should pay the tab for buying it from management.

Who's paying the cost of bringing NWA's contract up to Delta's?

 

[Sedona16]

Ran both the ASA and NWA pay to contractual max on narrow body equipment.

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/asa.html

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/northwest.html

Based on the numbers published here on B Plan:
NWA- B-plan for new hires is a flat 5% contribution, rising to 8%
ASA - 401K - 75% of first 6% pilot contribution (at 7 years longevity)

NWA was used since John Pennekamp's interest was mostly in NWA and he lives in a NWA base.

Delta certainly has a better contract for new hires than NWA does.

Yeah I looked at those pay scales for ASA. So you were presenting the $104/hr figure taken from 18 year captain pay and not 11th year? To be fair, in roughly the same time frame (ten to twelve years) a NWA or DAL new hire will also hit the top of the FO pay scale quite probably on a wide body paying $110 to $131/hr at current pay rates plus the additional retirement monies mentioned which could put an FO at Delta at roughly $148/hr. Really no comparison. If the merger doesnt happen I think an NWA guy would still come out way ahead over the life of his career vs an RJ captain at ASA. If the DAL or NWA guys/gals get any restoration of pay at all this will move the divide even further. Keep in mind, not long ago there were DAL 767 FO's making $180/hr.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Sedona - you are correct. It is a long term bet and not a short term payoff. After comparing a few post bankruptcy W2's, the payoff / pay back is not not nearly as quick, althought the mainline QOL is much better.

I made the leap, but completely understand those who chose not to give up 8 years' seniority and bidding from the top third of the list.

 

[jke406]

I made $78K last year as an ATR captain and stand to break $100k this year. And that's for 85 hours a month and never flying more than 300 miles or one state away.

How is that an argument for how much better you think you have it? I think it's rather short-sighted. Heaven forbid you have to step foot outside the deep south.

You stand to break $100k this year...until your 3 ATR flights a day to East Bumblef-ck get synergized to one (mainline) DC-9 a day.

 

[PuffDriver]

NWA pilots (who know more than I do about NWA bidding) say Widebody FO is senior to the Narrow Body Captain positions.

The B Fund for NWA is no great shakes that I've seen. Both airlines have various "soft money" options in profit sharing, stock, etc...

The point is that John Pennekamp's decision (if he has made a decision) to stay at a "regional" has financial legitimacy when compared with the Legacy he was most interested in.

Everyone tries to brand regional pilots as something less than professional pilots. Financially, that arguement does not have nearly the merit it used to - they have moved the bar up while NWA's MEC had to do what they had to do (I guess) in bankruptcy.

I certainly hope it gets better for all of us.

P.S. You have an impressive memory for details regarding operational integration. Even I had almost forgot about operating Delta sections back in the ATR days.

I agree with pretty much everything. Depending on how old he is, leaving out widebody scales and b fund contributions is not an apples/apples comparison. While staying may have financial legitimacy, there is always the factor that you will be serving a master--so to speak with regard to the major you are tied to. Those pilots control the scope via negotiations and always will revisit it in order to amend via negotiations.

In the grand scheme of things, you also have to look towards the future, and how it bodes. As of this moment, I wouldn't put any viability into staying at a regional. I think that the scales have peaked, and will indeed go down again in view of the fuel prices these days. I think that they finally managed to find the bottom of the major pay scales, and would not be at all surprised if we found ourselves with a fair raise with the onset of this merger, should it go through.

As far as branding regional pilots as somehow less qualified, I agree with you. Nonetheless, their job is to feed, and it will likely be that way always. Their future is directly tied to their major-of-the-moment. Some seem to get a little peeved by that as they think that it demeans them somehow. Guilty conscience I guess.

 

[John Pennekamp]

You need to lose the chip. You are feed, no more no less. You may not like the title, but that's what it is. Delta, NWA, Delta/NWA has it's choice of who feeds it. They are not going to get away with merging without the blessing of the two MECs. Period. In short, your opinion matters 0. The mainline pilot's opinions do.

You are feed. You feed mainline. You take people to them or from them. You work at the pleasure of whatever scope clause the mainline negotiates. It doesn't make you any less of a person. It doesn't make you any less of a pilot. It is what it is. You and fins need to get it through noggins. The lists were not merged because they were not required to be merged. Even in Comair's own contract, subsidiaries were allowed to exist without a list merger. I'm sure that ASA language had similar language. Operational integration is more than just little bottles of water and napkins. it is more than Delta flight control picking up a phone and asking ASA flight control if they could spare a flight. While little bottles of water and napkins with a widget may be sufficient enough in your little mind to entitle you to the benefits and equipment Delta pilots have, it indeed is not, as settled in court.

Get over it. You are feed. Delta can go anywhere for feed. Delta cannot go anywhere for mainline service. They must go through the Delta pilot work force

All Delta flying belongs to the Delta pilots with noted exceptions as dictated by the Delta PWA. That PWA gets renegotiated and is subject to more Delta owned flying or less Delta flying. You have no control over it. The Delta pilots do.

Deal with it. it is your lot in life, until you choose to go elsewhere.

And THAT, my friends, is why no one but a Delta pilot likes Delta pilots. Unbridled arrogance. I'm just "feed". A "tiny minded" "commuter pilot". Judged to be an insignificant person of useless opinion because of the airplane I fly by a Mighty double Breasted Delta Pilot.

Maybe all regional pilots in service of Delta should stage a week long walk out. Then we'll see how insignificant we are to you and your "career". After, all, Delta can get feed "anywhere", right?

Now, back to the topic, your MEC can staple us to your list with the stroke of a pen, and it costs you nothing. Yet they choose to continue building higher walls between us (exclusive scope). And management is digging under those walls with a golden shovel. Yet all you can put out is arrogant rhetoric about how you control us, ha ha.

Y'all just don't get it and mark my words, it will be your demise. We "commuters" will be providing "feed" for your successor long after the almighty Delta Air Lines has gone the way of Braniff, Pan Am, TWA, Eastern and many other greater Air Lines.

 

[Lear70]

The dispute has always been about who should pay the tab for buying it from management.

Some of us believed the cost should be borne by all parties. Your comrades in the RJDC thought the mainline guys should bear the total cost in the interest of "unity".

Small point of consideration:

Wasn't Scope given away by mainline pilots?

So, to fix the problem, shouldn't mainline pilots bear the "majority" of the cost?

Just a thought... I'm no longer a regional guy so I have no dog in the fight, and I always said a staple would be fine, as long as everyone was back on one list, but that's about all that the regional pilots can AFFORD to pay - their seniority.

I'm sure I'll get roasted for throwing this out there by guys who expect regional pilots to actually take a pay cut to finance something that mainline pilots gave away for more bennies years ago...

It's a double-edged sword. If the senior guys refuse to help bridge the gap and create a way to make it work, the regional pilots will continue to fly for low wages. If the senior guys take the brunt of the cost of re-integrating a list, then the top guys won't see a pay raise for 5-10 years in all likelihood, although these are the guys who benefited (in the short-term) from scope relief anyway.

Pandora's box is open... I don't think you can get enough people on the same page long enough to close it again.

 

[jke406]

Now, back to the topic, your MEC can staple us to your list with the stroke of a pen, and it costs you nothing.

Why would they do that? Serious question.

 

[John Pennekamp]

You stand to break $100k this year...until your 3 ATR flights a day to East Bumblef-ck get synergized to one (mainline) DC-9 a day.

I'll put my pay check up against yours that that doesn't happen. Delta and Eastern used to fly DC-9s from ATL to "East Bumblefu_k". Also Macon, Columbus, Augusta, etc. Didn't work out so good.

 

[John Pennekamp]

The point is that John Pennekamp's decision (if he has made a decision) to stay at a "regional" has financial legitimacy when compared with the Legacy he was most interested in.

I did indeed choose not to pursue NWA because financially it wasn't worth it, and as a company organization, it isn't much different from ASA. Bigger airplanes, same clusterf*** management and crappy QOL. I went ahead and interviewed anyhow, though, and had a good time making them squirm with questions about Compass. I have no other current apps in at other airlines. With the economy in its current state, and mergers on the horizon, I'm much better off keeping my "commuter" seniority than becoming mainline furlough fodder.

Instead, I'm going to hang at ASA and go back to school to pursue a different career field outside of aviation.