DAL/NWA Combination....should regional guys be worried?

[~~~^~~~]

I must have missed the part where he discussed parking MD-88s. Could you point to where Haustein mentions the MD-88s?

In this last conference call he simply makes references to capacity being pulled out of aircraft with low ownership costs. It is common knowledge that Delta got good lease rates on the 88's in bankruptcy and still owns some of them. If you don't believe General Lee's prolific posts on the subject I can try to find a link to a Company source.

Decreased utilization would result in fewer pilots needed to staff the lower block hour plan.

Delta has several plans going forward so they have flexibility to respond to the price of fuel and market conditions.

If you need a source, I will have to find, or transcribe, Anderson's State of the Company talk that was web cast.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The fact still remains that the DL seniority list has gone from 10500 pilots down to around 7000 now in large part because of the shift in flying to the regionals. DL now doesn't fly anything smaller than the MD-88. NW appears headed in the same direction. It's a huge issue for those in the bottom half of the seniority list and if we can't fix it now we probably never will. I don't really care about a temporary bump from an equity payout. I care about the next 25-30 years in this career.

Exactly! Thank goodness somebody gets it.

 

[Sedona16]

If you need a source, I will have to find, or transcribe, Anderson's State of the Company talk that was web cast.

Looks like it is no longer playing in theaters....

http://www2.multicastmedia.com/demos/Delta/TownHall1.html

 

[~~~^~~~]

Well, I think the 88 holds its own better than the DC-9's. Delta's managers have described a three, or four stage plan.
1 - Pull down RJ flying to contractual minimums (already done)
2 - Reschedule 88's (being done to some extent)
3 - Shift 88 flying to 70/76 seaters in some markets at some times (being done to some extent) and move the rest of the fleet down 737's on 757 Caribbean and SA turns, MD88's on some 757, etc... (pretty typical fleet re-org with declining pax demand)
4 - More of option #3

With high fuel prices, 100 passengers on a 76 seat jet (pricing out the excess) works better than 100 passengers on a 142 seat jet.

If anyone remembers anything diffrent let me know.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Hub-to-Hub regional flying will be eliminated in a merger. This has the most negative effect on comair and pinnacle. I would not expect mem and cvg to be regional hubs in a merger as well.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Well that could be a DC-9, or an RJ. We all just assume it will be an RJ, but the lease payments have to made on the RJ and the DC-9 is paid for.

Delta has re-affirmed it's commitment to CVG in the press.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

This all suggests more outsourcing - if ALPA lets it happen and we all know the history of the matter.

The answer is One List within a brand's flying - so the airline can operate which ever airplane is most efficient and pilots are not winners and losers based on management's aircraft purchase decisions.

It is time to restore this profession through unity.

Or you could be like this guy and his RJ defense coalition cronies and sue for Date of hire.....buuuut I digress....

 

[Occam's Razor]

Exactly! Thank goodness somebody gets it.

*Chortle*

"Get's it"?

EVERYBODY "get's it"! A few of us (Hint: You) seem to believe it comes free, like egg rolls at Wok & Roll...or that the price to be paid for it should be borne by somebody other than you.

The benefit has never been in dispute. The fact that you and your (previous) brothers were willing to do our flying for less has never been in dispute.

The dispute has always been about who should pay the tab for buying it from management.

Some of us believed the cost should be borne by all parties. Your comrades in the RJDC thought the mainline guys should bear the total cost in the interest of "unity".

Because of that, our greatest opportunity to achieve Brand Scope died at the hands of Danny Boy and his band of nitwit victims.

 

[sweptback]

With high fuel prices, 100 passengers on a 76 seat jet (pricing out the excess) works better than 100 passengers on a 142 seat jet.

Didn't Delta try this whole grand plan with the 50-seat RJ expansion? You know, the Reid theory of more frequency and higher yields by leaving the low-paying buckets off the fares.

Too bad that didn't work.

 

[FDJ2]

In this last conference call he simply makes references to capacity being pulled out of aircraft with low ownership costs.

O.K., so you are speculating that it might be the 88s. Fair enough, however, I'd point out that the only aircraft DAL is currently parking are CRJ100/200s, and the majority of routes that have been pulled down lately have been RJ routes. Expect more of the same.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

A few of us (Hint: You) seem to believe it comes free, like egg rolls at Wok & Roll...

Wait.... egg rolls are free at Wok & Roll????

 

[dtfl]

There is a reason why Delta buys SkyWest's fuel... Because Delta gets a better deal.

Delta's thought is that if SkyWest bought their own fuel, they would pay more, then market it up for a profit, then sell it to Delta.

Delta is tangled up in some deals it wished it did not have, but merging probably does not allow it to break these contracts with SkyWest (for example, others exist).

These deals put pressure on Delta's 50 seaters at Comair.

At the same time rumors are Republic Airlines holdings is standing at the door with a pile of cash in exchange for expanded codeshare.

Unity is within our control. Oil isn't.

So what is the reason we see RJs taxiing with both engines running, burning the HELL out of this free fuel?????!?!?!?!

 

[Occam's Razor]

Wait.... egg rolls are free at Wok & Roll????

Shhh! Only for mainline guys. You'll see. This is just another way the mainline guys keep the Airlink guys down!

 

[~~~^~~~]

So what is the reason we see RJs taxiing with both engines running, burning the HELL out of this free fuel?????!?!?!?!

Yes it is.

 

[NuGuy]

Because of that, our greatest opportunity to achieve Brand Scope died at the hands of Danny Boy and his band of nitwit victims.

Heyas Occam,

Yea, funny thing comimg from an ex-RJDCer who now uses a swingline for his Avatar. My, how fast the attitude changes when the shoe is on the other foot.

I'm not quite sure why the DAL guys have such a bug up their a$$ about the DC-9. Cheap to operate, and now with gas on the way lower, they will have more incentive to keep them flying. Instead, the DAL guys seem to want them to go away.

You would think the DAL guys would be rooting to keep EVERY LAST airframe on the "new" property. More DC-9s = Less RJs = More guys on property. Current DC-9 CA pay rates are > than anything FO at DAL up to and including the 767, so more airplanes = more captains = better pay for more pilots.

Dunno...maybe they've forgotten how to use the old VOR or can't quite remember how to figure that pesky old descent profile.

Anderson was a BIG proponent of operating the -9...he knows better that our illustrious friend here the benefits of keeping them.

Nu

 

[Noserider76]

Heyas Occam,

Yea, funny thing comimg from an ex-RJDCer who now uses a swingline for his Avatar. My, how fast the attitude changes when the shoe is on the other foot.

I'm not quite sure why the DAL guys have such a bug up their a$$ about the DC-9. Cheap to operate, and now with gas on the way lower, they will have more incentive to keep them flying. Instead, the DAL guys seem to want them to go away.

You would think the DAL guys would be rooting to keep EVERY LAST airframe on the "new" property. More DC-9s = Less RJs = More guys on property. Current DC-9 CA pay rates are > than anything FO at DAL up to and including the 767, so more airplanes = more captains = better pay for more pilots.

Dunno...maybe they've forgotten how to use the old VOR or can't quite remember how to figure that pesky old descent profile.

Anderson was a BIG proponent of operating the -9...he knows better that our illustrious friend here the benefits of keeping them.

Nu

I think we do want every last airframe here. It's just that we've retired 6 different aircraft in the last 6-7 years and we're a little worried since we sheet canned things that were more modern and efficient than the -9. Our 737-200s/300s went out the door in record time.

You are right, at least in my case, I'm not good enough to fly it anymore. It was way too much work. I hope you're right about RA and he sees value in keeping the -9s on property. After what we've been through lately, I assume mal-intent whenever a bean counter opens his mouth. I'd like to see it's replacement addressed in the contract the MECs are discussing. I would do a lot, in my opinion, to alay fears of it's sudden retirement and resulting pilot surplus, but that's probably not going to happen.

Either way, don't take it too personally. It's just blowing off steam and we're all just along for ride.

 

[General Lee]

I think we do want every last airframe here. It's just that we've retired 6 different aircraft in the last 6-7 years and we're a little worried since we sheet canned things that were more modern and efficient than the -9. Our 737-200s/300s went out the door in record time.

You are right, at least in my case, I'm not good enough to fly it anymore. It was way too much work. I hope you're right about RA and he sees value in keeping the -9s on property. After what we've been through lately, I assume mal-intent whenever a bean counter opens his mouth. I'd like to see it's replacement addressed in the contract the MECs are discussing. I would do a lot, in my opinion, to alay fears of it's sudden retirement and resulting pilot surplus, but that's probably not going to happen.

Either way, don't take it too personally. It's just blowing off steam and we're all just along for ride.

RA also said the MD90s available were a great deal, and supposedly there are 100 or so out there. They might be a part of the overall picture too.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Heyas Occam,

Yea, funny thing comimg from an ex-RJDCer who now uses a swingline for his Avatar. My, how fast the attitude changes when the shoe is on the other foot.

I'm not quite sure why the DAL guys have such a bug up their a$$ about the DC-9. Cheap to operate, and now with gas on the way lower, they will have more incentive to keep them flying. Instead, the DAL guys seem to want them to go away.

You would think the DAL guys would be rooting to keep EVERY LAST airframe on the "new" property. More DC-9s = Less RJs = More guys on property. Current DC-9 CA pay rates are > than anything FO at DAL up to and including the 767, so more airplanes = more captains = better pay for more pilots.

Dunno...maybe they've forgotten how to use the old VOR or can't quite remember how to figure that pesky old descent profile.

Anderson was a BIG proponent of operating the -9...he knows better that our illustrious friend here the benefits of keeping them.

Nu

NU,

We really HOPE we get to keep the DC9s in a merger. Everything I have heard from Management types states otherwise, but I hope you are right. There would never be a mass parking in my opinion, because that would give away market share. I think a slow pulldown and our old Creditor Boeing starting up an extra 737NG line (WSJ reported that) would be the most likely scenario. But, if you like the DC9s, then I hope we keep them for a long time....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Fly4hire]

NU,
We really HOPE we get to keep the DC9s in a merger.
Bye Bye--General Lee

GL,

Hope so also -if they are parked it will likely be after the operational integration (nobody will do anything until DOJ approves and the ink is dry), at which point it is job losses for the combined list. Even if there are fences, if the DC9 jobs go away those pilots slot in where their seniority would hold.

The issue is not the DC9's per se , but there is no replacement acft named yet. Perhaps as you have indicated the additional MD-90's might be the key. From a training waterfall perspective it's a no-brainer - you could do a very short differences course and have a DC9 crew qualed overnight.

 

[John Pennekamp]

My apologies! I didn't mean to hurt your uterus.



Either read a history book...or back off!

My "power to change it" ebbed when the RJDC zygotes refused to consider compromise. I had it...but it required that "cooperation" thingy I mentioned in my post.

I offered to fall on my sword if they would be willing to fall on a knife.

They weren't.

So now I have to look over my shoulder at you, cuz you're willing to do my job for less money.

REALLY? Mighty presumptuous assumption, don't you think? Especially since you know nothing about me.

As a former ALPA BOD member who has never sent a dime to the RJDC, I resent your assertion that I want to do your job for less. What I really want is my little slice of the pie (the one you all gave us in the 90s) and to be left alone. Not wondering every day if you and your mainline brethren are going to decide to renege and take that slice back from me.

Or even better, let's get together and (*gasp*) SHARE the pie from the same table? What a concept!

 

[John Pennekamp]

Truthfully - the best way to restore this profession is to come together in unity. The reason our profession has collapsed is because we have outsourced flying and let the bar be set at the regional level.

Plus, we have let management bait us into fighting each other, instead of fighting them on a united front. We fell for it hook, line and sinker, dummies!

 

[John Pennekamp]

Perfect! A simple solution! The problem's complex...but YOU'VE stumbled across a simple (free) solution.

Here's my simple solution:

All DAL pilots hired within the last 5-years should take an immediate 50% cut for the remainder of their careers at DAL to pay for the "unity costs" of integrating all ASA, CMR, and Skywest pilots onto the list. (Psst! DOH, right?)

The junior DAL pilots are the group most vulnerable to the fact that there are RJ pilots willing to do their jobs for less...right?

So YOU pay it!

Now, sing the Unity Song!

You mean kind of like Green Book? Let's see, you guys have Red, Green, and Blue already. What color will you assign the Delta guys to keep their asses out of "your" heavies?

 

[rf285]

You mean kind of like Green Book? Let's see, you guys have Red, Green, and Blue already. What color will you assign the Delta guys to keep their asses out of "your" heavies?

60 heavies compared to 100+? Books need to go by the wayside. It creates division. If it does happen though, don't worry, we'll put you in the "brown book".

Have fun at the Boathouse!

 

[brainhurts]

REALLY? Mighty presumptuous assumption, don't you think? Especially since you know nothing about me.

As a former ALPA BOD member who has never sent a dime to the RJDC, I resent your assertion that I want to do your job for less. What I really want is my little slice of the pie (the one you all gave us in the 90s) and to be left alone. Not wondering every day if you and your mainline brethren are going to decide to renege and take that slice back from me.

Or even better, let's get together and (*gasp*) SHARE the pie from the same table? What a concept!

I am not sure if you really grasp this or not, but that was never your slice of the pie. At best it was rented to you, but now the term of the lease is up and the piece of pie is about to be put in the cooler so that it can be preserved for a short while.
That is the situation all of us are in. We have all contributed to this mess and no one wants to take responsibility when they hurt others--and then they want to cry when their temporary piece of pie is stuffed in the cooler. Man up please.

 

[jke406]

I am not sure if you really grasp this or not, but that was never your slice of the pie. At best it was rented to you, but now the term of the lease is up and the piece of pie is about to be put in the cooler so that it can be preserved for a short while.
That is the situation all of us are in. We have all contributed to this mess and no one wants to take responsibility when they hurt others--and then they want to cry when their temporary piece of pie is stuffed in the cooler. Man up please.

I thought you were a 747 captain...?

 

[DTW320]

You mean kind of like Green Book? Let's see, you guys have Red, Green, and Blue already. What color will you assign the Delta guys to keep their asses out of "your" heavies?

Time for a Fact check (radical concept here I know). Roberts Award ended over 2 years ago. NWA pilots are all bluebook.

 

[John Pennekamp]

60 heavies compared to 100+? Books need to go by the wayside. It creates division.

Ya think?

 

[John Pennekamp]

I am not sure if you really grasp this or not, but that was never your slice of the pie. At best it was rented to you, but now the term of the lease is up and the piece of pie is about to be put in the cooler so that it can be preserved for a short while.
That is the situation all of us are in. We have all contributed to this mess and no one wants to take responsibility when they hurt others--and then they want to cry when their temporary piece of pie is stuffed in the cooler. Man up please.

Rented? Talk about spin.

You can spin it however you want to, but once you give something, you also give up your rights to it. You can't just take it back without compensation. Talk about a double standard and lack of character. No wonder everybody who doesn't fly for a mainline (including the public) think mainline pilots are egotistical jerks.

The solution is to bring the regional pilots into the fold. Not take the food out of their childrens' mouths. Why don't you guys understand that? Oh I get it. You already got yours, so screw us, right?

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Rented? Talk about spin.

You can spin it however you want to, but once you give something, you also give up your rights to it. You can't just take it back without compensation. Talk about a double standard and lack of character. No wonder everybody who doesn't fly for a mainline (including the public) think mainline pilots are egotistical jerks.

The solution is to bring the regional pilots into the fold. Not take the food out of their childrens' mouths. Why don't you guys understand that? Oh I get it. You already got yours, so screw us, right?

I have had enough of your whining John....

You were offered "into the fold" in 1999, but it wasn't good enough, DOH must stand according to your group.....

When did this flying become YOUR property?? You are hired help plain and simple......a subcontractor. When your paycheck says DELTA on it, then it's your flying.

You want to feed your children??? APPLY TO A LARGE CARRIER THAT PAYS WELL....listen again...APPLY TO A LARGE CARRIER THAT PAYS WELL....never in the history of aviation was it understood that a regional was a career move. SO you want a mainline paycheck??.......APPLY TO A LARGE CARRIER THAT PAYS WELL....

This egotistical jerk isn't going to stand by and let you think you can post your claim to any flying you seem fit and then expect me to fight my management for it.....forget it, your kids can starve!!!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Bill:

I truly enjoy what you write and have your Swingline Stapler avitar in honor of the final straw that drove Milton Waddums to burn the place down.

But, in true Lumberg fashion... I'm going to have to kinda disagree with your version of events in 1999. ASA / Comair were not offered into the fold, even with the staple we hoped for. Further, the ALPA BOD removed the definition of "Operational Integration" to avoid triggering ALPA's own merger and fragmentation policy with the ASA / Comair acquisitions.

At that time, Charles Giambusso and Mike Pinho made the case that if ASA and Comair were stapled there would be no place for military pilots to come into Delta above the regional guys. Further, it was said that most ASA pilots did not meet Delta's standards.

A choice was made. Hiring opportunities for "more qualified" candidates were determined to be more important than unity.

That was the way things had been done, the Delta MEC was focused on bigger issues and the ASA pilots were always seen as the minor leagues where pilots could earn their stripes and apply for the real airline job. Further, bringing ASA & Comair on board would be lowering Delta to E120 turboprop trash - a job no self respecting military pilot would want.

I understand the arguements and understand that changing direction would have been difficult for the Delta MEC. There probably was not any support for One List on the mainline property and ultimately, your Representatives do have the duty to represent their members.

I've spent countless hours simply trying to change folks minds with the hope that they will see the merits of unity - hoping for change at the grass roots level.

Aren't we all tired of mainline furloughs and continued outsourcing? The NWA pilots' flying is getting sent out to their regionals. As they are displaced they will be looking at "what our seniority will hold." Rather than their "bi-directional flow through" this should be resolved with a single list.

Respectfully,
~~~^~~~