AirTran Contract issues

[Lear70]

What were the hiring minimums at the time?

How many aircraft did airTran have on firm order and how many were they taking delivery of that year?

 

[PCL_128]

TA2 would have been a yes for me if scope and merger language had been different.

It still would have been a clear NO from me, but I would have had a lot less heartburn about it. Scope is the ultimate priority.

 

[twepilot]

it is my opinion that the majority would have benefitted from TA2 in light of todays and the future operating environment.

How can it be a pay cut for someone that isn't even on the property?? Existing new-hires retained their payrates.

I do not regret, nor think my decision to vote yes on TA2 was a bad decision. I however, can accept differing points of view and opinions.

who is going to pay my bills, send my daughter to college etc etc. you? A new hire? Joe blow? I don't think so.

If a pay freeze or anything else is voted in I can deal with that with no hard feelings. Thats the way that it is.

RV

 

[twepilot]

Just a short anecdote..I was flying with a guy just after TA2 went down and as we were discussing the merits and shortfalls of it he says to me "I would have voted yes if it had a provision to move vacation, more sick time", and a few other things that I can't remember right now. When I told him that it contained all those things he says to me "I guess I should have read it and not just listened to other people". Brilliant!

RV

 

[Lear70]

I appreciate your point of view, and I wouldn't worry about having a place to work and money to take care of your family, airTran isn't going anywhere (unless a merger/acquisition happens in which you'll likely still have a job).

I'm certain that the next T.A. will be at least the same, if not more for the senior 1/2 of the pilots, and will likely be more for the junior half and fix some Scope / language issues.

It's really not all that much to ask and the company now knows the measure of the pilots resolve on those key items. It doesn't look good when they get shot down publicly for their failure to present a livable working agreement with their employees. The shareholders are suffering too and will bring added pressure on that front.

All-in-all I don't think we'll get Southwest parity, but I'm absolutely certain we'll do much better in round 3.

On a side note, I hope that this gets more people involved in the next T.A., although the voter turnout for the BoD doesn't exactly make me confident of that...

 

[twepilot]

I agree. Have a good one. Gotta go with the wife to look at furniture. Whatta joy!!

RV

 

[maxblast72]

Guys! Sorry to mingle in your party. But, from what I saw on this board posted as your proposed CA rates, they didn't even come close to CAL's concessionary rates that are now in place. Nor to DAL's for similar size equipment and we're not even gonna touch SWA.

So considering all the workrules and the meagar payraises that were proposed to a small group in your company, how's that a TA that's worth voting for? How are you maintaining or even raising the bar for your fellow aviators that will also be in negotiations in the near future?

I don't know exactly what you were looking at but using myself as an example, TA2 would have paid me $143 an hour as 7th year Captain in 2010. Right now, airlinepilotpay.com is advertising $147 for a 12th year Captain at Continental. Also, talking with some of my new hire buddies at Continental, they said they don't have a duty period guarantee, duty rigs, or trip rigs for domestic flying. Taking those work rules into consideration, I would add another 4-6% to our pay rates (because of the "soft" pay) to get equivalent rates at Continental.

I would take Airtran's TA2 small narrowbody total compensation vs. Continental's small narrowbody compensation anyday. Am I missing something?

Prior to the age 65 rule coming into effect I thought Continental might have been a decent place to work due to quick seniority progression but I would now bet Airtran's FO's will make Captain quicker than Continental FO's. We still got 65 airplanes on order (non of which are replacement airplanes) over the next 4 or 5 years and a probable order for the 737 replacement whenever it comes out.

 

[PCL_128]

Guys! Sorry to mingle in your party. But, from what I saw on this board posted as your proposed CA rates, they didn't even come close to CAL's concessionary rates that are now in place. Nor to DAL's for similar size equipment and we're not even gonna touch SWA.

So considering all the workrules and the meagar payraises that were proposed to a small group in your company, how's that a TA that's worth voting for? How are you maintaining or even raising the bar for your fellow aviators that will also be in negotiations in the near future?

Gotta agree with maxblast on this one. There were many problems with TA2, but Capt pay wasn't one of them. The top CA rate for SNBs was $183/hr. That's higher than many of the legacies are paying their widebody CAs now.

 

[Thunderchief]

We don't need an 18 yr pay scale either, I don't understand how people think that is a 'good thing'. It just spreads the money the company is willing to pay THINNER over more years.
And the scope language has to be iron clad tight!
-tc

 

[Kenney G]

Just a short anecdote..I was flying with a guy just after TA2 went down and as we were discussing the merits and shortfalls of it he says to me "I would have voted yes if it had a provision to move vacation, more sick time", and a few other things that I can't remember right now. When I told him that it contained all those things he says to me "I guess I should have read it and not just listened to other people". Brilliant!

RV

Hey Twe. I read your TA and was wondering if you could point out 2-3 good things in it besides the pay rate? I could not find much. Just trying to understand.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

scope scope scope!!!!!!!!!! If we had good scope I think I could brought myself to vote for it. But it was lagging in many areas

 

[twepilot]

very true...

RV

 

[maxblast72]

I think if we left our Captain payscale at a 12 year max with COLA from our current topout of $152, we could have built a respectable FO payscale that would help us lower our attrition rate. I don't think our Captains need one cent more than COLA until our FO payscale is respectable enough that I can convince my friends that Airtran is a good place for them to apply for.


Speaking of attrition, I flew with a FO (8 months seniority) tonight that will be leaving for Delta within a few months. His reason was the FO payscales and uncertainity of upgrading at Airtran within the next 5 years. He felt more comfortable that he would be able to earn a decent living in the right seat at Delta over the next few years than being in the right seat at Airtran.

 

[Spidey]

I think if we left our Captain payscale at a 12 year max with COLA from our current topout of $152, we could have built a respectable FO payscale that would help us lower our attrition rate. I don't think our Captains need one cent more than COLA until our FO payscale is respectable enough that I can convince my friends that Airtran is a good place for them to apply for.


Speaking of attrition, I flew with a FO (8 months seniority) tonight that will be leaving for Delta within a few months. His reason was the FO payscales and uncertainity of upgrading at Airtran within the next 5 years. He felt more comfortable that he would be able to earn a decent living in the right seat at Delta over the next few years than being in the right seat at Airtran.

A very good (great) friend of mine is upgrading to 88 Cap after 8 years at Delta. Depending on the age of the fo, they might be right. There is alot of gloom and doom out there now among gear handle pullers. My Delta bud said 4 and half years ago that his company had so much cash, they would never run out. It is a fickle bidness. Your fo must have tubed the southwest interview. Happy New Year to All! Things ain't that bad!

 

[71driver]

TWE Pilot not to pick on but....

You guys that come from the commutors and land your big major airline job "Airtran" think you have reached the mountain top...you have not my friend you are only at base camp

The quality of life i.e. issues in our contract need to be taken care of amoung many many other things. you guys that say TA2 wasn't so bad scare me.

Just one of the many items FO pay went flat line while the captains continued to shadow the industry average but who cares about the guy sitting next to you as a 6 year F/O that is struggling to make ends meet you got yours right?

Our union needs to grow some balls but they can't with guys like you supporting them or lack thereof

 

[twepilot]

Bro' you got it completely wrong...I totally support my union. What I DO NOT support is rogue, wildcat idiots that take things upon themselves. If you'll remember our union supported Both TA's and even recommended voting them in. Now that I think about it, I believe it was a neutral recommendation on TA2. Personally, I have no need to be at the "top of the heap" which is why I'm staying here and had planned on that from the outset.

RV

 

[gt1900]

Twepilot..... How could you vote yes on a contract that pays FO's (the guy you sit right next to) far less than industry average while you sit in the seat next to him and make above industry average wages?? How could you live with yourself knowing you sold the guy out? The FO pay rates were terrible, the didn't even reach Frontier or Alaska's concessionary contract. Guys like you really scare me, becuase you did sell out all the FO's, and future FO's... AAI has made money for 8 years in a row, soon to be 9, yet you think its OK to vote for a contract that lowers the newhire rate.... You really need to look in the mirror and take a good look... Its great that you support your Union, but you DO NOT support your fellow pilots. The union didn't support the fellow pilots either and thats why they got booted. Thank god that over 60% of the guys on property can look past there own well being and see the well being of all the pilots at AAI.. Not to be a jerk, but I'm glad that we have over 60% of the pilot group that is not like you...

 

[Max Powers]

TWE Pilot not to pick on but....

You guys that come from the commutors and land your big major airline job "Airtran" think you have reached the mountain top...you have not my friend you are only at base camp

The quality of life i.e. issues in our contract need to be taken care of amoung many many other things. you guys that say TA2 wasn't so bad scare me.

Just one of the many items FO pay went flat line while the captains continued to shadow the industry average but who cares about the guy sitting next to you as a 6 year F/O that is struggling to make ends meet you got yours right?

Our union needs to grow some balls but they can't with guys like you supporting them or lack thereof

Exactly

 

[twepilot]

I never said that TA2 was perfect. I did say that each person had to make their own decision and vote accordingly. They did and the system worked as it should.

RV

 

[Lear70]

Bro' you got it completely wrong...I totally support my union. What I DO NOT support is rogue, wildcat idiots that take things upon themselves.

Care to qualify that statement?

If you'll remember our union supported Both TA's and even recommended voting them in. Now that I think about it, I believe it was a neutral recommendation on TA2.

And that's why the majority of those guys were sent packing (top leaders and entire NC) by the majority of the membership.

When the union leadership fails to protect their members, they have failed COMPLETELY in doing the job they promised to do when they took office.

If not for a dozen or so loud voices who fought the inadequacies of the T.A.'s and started the recall movements, we might be living with that same failed leadership under a deeply concessionary T.A.

Personally, I have no need to be at the "top of the heap" which is why I'm staying here and had planned on that from the outset.

Neither do I, but I have NO interest in being on the BOTTOM, either.

I can't understand why over 1/3 of the pilot group was happy with being the bottom-dweller of the majors in terms of compensation, scope, and QOL for the majority of the pilots (all F/O's and reserve CA's).

OK, so I'm being dramatic, not the VERY bottom, just 3rd from the bottom of majors.

 

[PCL_128]

I never said that TA2 was perfect. I did say that each person had to make their own decision and vote accordingly. They did and the system worked as it should.


RV

You shouldn't be making the decision simply based on your own self interests. You need to think about the guys that you're flying with also. The only reason that the system worked is because a lot of Captains voted NO even though it was in their own selfish interests to vote YES. They voted NO because they knew it wasn't right to throw the copilots under the bus.

 

[airline#5]

We're currently "under the bus", with few upgrades in sight. 2/3 capt pay or bust.

 

[Lear70]

I did the math when I came over...

If you came from PCL (and most regionals), it would take you 5-7 years just to BREAK EVEN from your CA pay that you left to come to airTran.

I can almost GUARANTEE you that most of the guys and gals who came here were did so for the quick upgrade and longer at CA pay than you would at a Legacy. They were preaching 2-3 year upgrades and we bought into it.

Then they started deferring deliveries, plus the dozen or so age 60 guys who now won't be leaving, means that you'd better plan for 5-7 year upgrades at the very least...

F/O pay is going to be a major issue this time around, and I wouldn't be surprised to see more F/O's leaving for Southwest or even Netjets. Hell, a 3 year F/O would get a pay RAISE leaving AAI for NJA under their new CBA.

 

[PCL_128]

I don't think many people will be leaving for SWA. With the geezers sticking around with Age-65, and SWA slowing growth, hiring will slow to a crawl over there. Not to mention the 10+ year upgrade.

 

[Lear70]

You're kidding, right?

If you were a 1st or 2nd year F/O and SWA called, you wouldn't go?

You're looking at a 5-7 year upgrade. You're going to make HALF what a SWA F/O would during that time period. A 2nd year F/O at SWA makes what our 10-year F/O does here. A 3rd year F/O makes what a 2-year CA does here. That's pretty easy math.

Not to mention that when you upgrade you'll make about 2/3 of what a SWA CA makes for the rest of your career.

Overall it's a $4 million difference in career paths. You don't think our F/O's would jump on that? I think most would, and many are... attrition is through the roof right now, according to those in the training circles.

 

[Britpilot]

First year pay sucks. period no matter where you may work. If a person has an issue with new-hire pay they should not apply to be employed there. When mgmnt has trouble attracting/retaining people that playing field will even out.



RV

Boy are you out of touch. First year pay does not have to suck and it doesn't at several companies out there.
Management IS having difficulty hiring and filling classes and IS having trouble retaining pilots. Where have you been?

 

[PCL_128]

You're kidding, right?


If you were a 1st or 2nd year F/O and SWA called, you wouldn't go?

No, I wouldn't, but I've never wanted to work for SWA. That's not what I mean, though. I'm talking about the simple hiring numbers at SWA. I'm willing to bet that it will take the next 12-18 months just for SWA to drain their current pool. That means you would be waiting quite a while if you haven't been called for an interview yet. I just don't foresee a lot of hiring at SWA in the next 5 years thanks to the change in the retirement age.

 

[twepilot]

looking at airline pilot central. I Can say unequivically, that 1 st year pay SUCKS. For example..AA-35/hr, CO-31/hr, DL-49/hr, NW-30/hr, UA-32/hr etc. Looking ONLY at first year, our current rates are competetive. Hopefully, in our next TA the rates will be as competetive as they are today.

RV

 

[Britpilot]

looking at airline pilot central. I Can say unequivically, that 1 st year pay SUCKS. For example..AA-35/hr, CO-31/hr, DL-49/hr, NW-30/hr, UA-32/hr etc. Looking ONLY at first year, our current rates are competetive. Hopefully, in our next TA the rates will be as competetive as they are today.

RV

All of which are under concessionary contracts. Our rates are not competitive as we are not under a concessionary contract.

 

[twepilot]

Does anyone know how much 1st year rates got whacked at places like AA, CO, NW, UA. Off the cuff they'd have to have been reduced by around 30%.

RV