How do I get out of ALPA

[jke406]

...what he said! outstanding post.


and Rez, blow it out your @ss.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

I have read and have atleast reached an amicable agreement in my head about your responses, but I disagree with you in this case.

Disagreement is fine.... at the end of the day we need to come out fighting for the same cause... mixed messages are fodder when dealing with industry and gov't

Remember that just like being an American citizen, an ALPA member is not required to be "involved" to make his/her voice count. That is like saying an American citizen cannot voice an opinion unless he/she is a politician or political crusader of sorts.

Fair enough... however, most pilots don't let thier voice be heard. They don't vote and they don't establish relationships with thier elected reps. They don't read and know the contract.

And just because ones voice is heard doesn't mean it has to be followed. Does it?

I'm sorry if you feel that every ALPA pilot should get involved else his/her voice doesn't count.

No, but I think every ALPA member should be informed and edcuated. I call it active. An active member has read flying the line, understands the past, knows how the union functions and has realistic expectations.

A proactive member is one who volunteers.

Why should the pilot with three kids, a wife, and sick parent living at home (or whatever scenario) be required to volunteer or run for office in order to have a say?

Again you miss my intention. But the guy above should volunteer cause there is another guy with four kids and two sick parents that volunteers.

We can all come up with excuses not too volunteer but the fact is there are guys that don't have excuses... THEY JUST DO IT AND THEY GET THE JOB DONE without pay or recognition.

I'm sorry, but most pilots ARE "too busy with life outside of union service", just like most Americans are too busy to be of civil service (not for pay).

Well, should we raise to dues to equal the tax rate so we can have professional staffers doing all the work? I mean some has to do the work right? So who is going to do it or pay for it?

If a pilot pays his/her dues and votes, he/she is entitled to a voice, and that voice will be heard -- the pilot should NOT be required to be of "union service" in order to have a voice.

Fair enough... but that pilot should also have some sort of political skills. And understand that they can speak up but if no one is intrested then so be it.

Quote -- "That is too bad.... consider if everyone offered some type of union service... instead of pilots expecting to be served they actually help out!"

Are you saying that ALL Americans need to be volunteering their time, all of the time, in order to be heard?

No. but most Americans vote for the Prez every four years and that is it. They don't vote for congressmen and local and state elections.

Sorry but the fact is..as Americans we take our democratic responsibilites very lightly.... and so do we as ALPA pilots...

LEC particaption rates 5%
Voter rates 35%

C'mon, most guys have no clue how ALPA works. Yet they have lots of opinons... Simply put most Americans and ALPA pilots want the rewards without the responsibility...

I DO expect to be served by my democratically elected officials.

And what are you going to do when they don't meet your expectations?

Thats why I pay taxes (dues)!

I pay dues too. I've got a family. I commute. I volunteer. I volunteered when I was on reserve with 10 days off. While other guys with 15+ days off did not. Why is that? What is going on in some guys life with 15+ days off that he can volunteer a few hours to promote the profession?

In no way does the government have the right to step into my life and say "you WILL offer FREE TIME to your country for NO PAY, and you will do it all of the time, else you will not have any say in this government."

True, however, you must spend some time becoming effective at understadning how the gov't works. Do American citizens have responsibilities? At least in our school system we "force" people to become educated on civics and gov't.

How do pilots get informed on ALPA affairs? Where is the ALPA civics lesson?

That is one reason the draft was removed because the government overstepped its bounds into a citizen life.

Should we have an ALPA draft? Since we don't very few pilots offer to help out...and look at the satisfaction level of the membership...

Yes, I do agree with you that civic duty (non-paid) and yes, even union duty, is a good thing, but it is not required!

Nope... and look at the satisfaction levels. We have too many pilots that are so far disconnected that they call for National Strikes, National Pay Rates, National Seniority Lists.

These are radical actions that the disconnected and poor informed call for. However, these can be great ideas but we are so far from them that it is impossible to get there with out getting an effective membership. A Catach 22.

Please show me in the ALPA By-Laws or Constitution for that matter that says I am required to participate.

Don't particapte, in terms of self education and self career governement and see where it gets you...

All I know is that I should pay my dues. I have yet to be charged for "back-volunteering".

But yet you expect some other guy to volunteer? Why should the guy with two kids and a wife that works too, volunteer while you don't?

By the way, I do volunteer and I did hold a rep position in my LEC, I just don't agree with the view that a pilot will only be recognized if he/she volunteers.

Agreed. However, a pilot must particapte in the governence of his career. Are you telling me that a pilot can skip the Age 60 survey, skip LEC voting, skip LEC meeting attendance, be apathetic and then when his/her expectations aren't met start calling for radical changes? That they should be heard, taken seriously?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

I have read and have atleast reached an amicable agreement in my head about your responses, but I disagree with you in this case.

Disagreement is fine.... at the end of the day we need to come out fighting for the same cause... mixed messages are fodder when dealing with industry and gov't

Remember that just like being an American citizen, an ALPA member is not required to be "involved" to make his/her voice count. That is like saying an American citizen cannot voice an opinion unless he/she is a politician or political crusader of sorts.

Fair enough... however, most pilots don't let thier voice be heard. They don't vote and they don't establish relationships with thier elected reps. They don't read and know the contract.

And just because ones voice is heard doesn't mean it has to be followed. Does it?

I'm sorry if you feel that every ALPA pilot should get involved else his/her voice doesn't count.

No, but I think every ALPA member should be informed and edcuated. I call it active. An active member has read flying the line, understands the past, knows how the union functions and has realistic expectations.

A proactive member is one who volunteers.

Why should the pilot with three kids, a wife, and sick parent living at home (or whatever scenario) be required to volunteer or run for office in order to have a say?

Again you miss my intention. But the guy above should volunteer cause there is another guy with four kids and two sick parents that volunteers.

We can all come up with excuses not too volunteer but the fact is there are guys that don't have excuses... THEY JUST DO IT AND THEY GET THE JOB DONE without pay or recognition.

I'm sorry, but most pilots ARE "too busy with life outside of union service", just like most Americans are too busy to be of civil service (not for pay).

Well, should we raise to dues to equal the tax rate so we can have professional staffers doing all the work? I mean some has to do the work right? So who is going to do it or pay for it?

If a pilot pays his/her dues and votes, he/she is entitled to a voice, and that voice will be heard -- the pilot should NOT be required to be of "union service" in order to have a voice.

Fair enough... but that pilot should also have some sort of political skills. And understand that they can speak up but if no one is intrested then so be it.

Quote -- "That is too bad.... consider if everyone offered some type of union service... instead of pilots expecting to be served they actually help out!"

Are you saying that ALL Americans need to be volunteering their time, all of the time, in order to be heard?

No. but most Americans vote for the Prez every four years and that is it. They don't vote for congressmen and local and state elections.

Sorry but the fact is..as Americans we take our democratic responsibilites very lightly.... and so do we as ALPA pilots...

LEC particaption rates 5%
Voter rates 35%

C'mon, most guys have no clue how ALPA works. Yet they have lots of opinons... Simply put most Americans and ALPA pilots want the rewards without the responsibility...

I DO expect to be served by my democratically elected officials.

And what are you going to do when they don't meet your expectations?

Thats why I pay taxes (dues)!

I pay dues too. I've got a family. I commute. I volunteer. I volunteered when I was on reserve with 10 days off. While other guys with 15+ days off did not. Why is that? What is going on in some guys life with 15+ days off that he can volunteer a few hours to promote the profession?

In no way does the government have the right to step into my life and say "you WILL offer FREE TIME to your country for NO PAY, and you will do it all of the time, else you will not have any say in this government."

True, however, you must spend some time becoming effective at understadning how the gov't works. Do American citizens have responsibilities? At least in our school system we "force" people to become educated on civics and gov't.

How do pilots get informed on ALPA affairs? Where is the ALPA civics lesson?

That is one reason the draft was removed because the government overstepped its bounds into a citizen life.

Should we have an ALPA draft? Since we don't very few pilots offer to help out...and look at the satisfaction level of the membership...

Yes, I do agree with you that civic duty (non-paid) and yes, even union duty, is a good thing, but it is not required!

Nope... and look at the satisfaction levels. We have too many pilots that are so far disconnected that they call for National Strikes, National Pay Rates, National Seniority Lists.

These are radical actions that the disconnected and poor informed call for. However, these can be great ideas but we are so far from them that it is impossible to get there with out getting an effective membership. A Catach 22.

Please show me in the ALPA By-Laws or Constitution for that matter that says I am required to participate.

Don't particapte, in terms of self education and self career governement and see where it gets you...

All I know is that I should pay my dues. I have yet to be charged for "back-volunteering".

But yet you expect some other guy to volunteer? Why should the guy with two kids and a wife that works too, volunteer while you don't?

By the way, I do volunteer and I did hold a rep position in my LEC, I just don't agree with the view that a pilot will only be recognized if he/she volunteers.

Agreed. However, a pilot must particapte in the governence of his career. Are you telling me that a pilot can skip the Age 60 survey, skip LEC voting, skip LEC meeting attendance, be apathetic and then when his/her expectations aren't met start calling for radical changes? That they should be heard, taken seriously?

 

[JPAustin]

Rez,

Basically, you're describing to me something I have preached for years -- that ALPA should have non-partisan grass-roots campaign to educate pilots, in particular new hires. I remember a new-hire class where ALPA came in, talked for 2 hours, and after class bought us beers, gave us Flying the Line 1, and highly suggested we read it. I did, I know a few other guys did, but you are right, some of the guys were apathetic.

The problem is, how do you do a grass-roots campaign with out running into political issues between MECs? By the way, I always laugh when people talk about national strikes or national seniority lists (no matter how nice that might be) because invariably, a federal judge will find that in violation of the anti-trust laws.

Good discussion Rez.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

Basically, you're describing to me something I have preached for years -- that ALPA should have non-partisan grass-roots campaign to educate pilots, in particular new hires. I remember a new-hire class where ALPA came in, talked for 2 hours, and after class bought us beers, gave us Flying the Line 1, and highly suggested we read it. I did, I know a few other guys did, but you are right, some of the guys were apathetic.

And it is biting ALPA national very hard. It is a two way street. As professionals I think pilots should take more responsbility in thier careers. ALPA has ALLOT of work to do as well....

The problem is, how do you do a grass-roots campaign with out running into political issues between MECs?

Leadership.... on everyone's part.

By the way, I always laugh when people talk about national strikes or national seniority lists (no matter how nice that might be) because invariably, a federal judge will find that in violation of the anti-trust laws.

Good discussion Rez.

Agreed.

 

[JPAustin]

You know what would be really nice -- if ALPA or at least an advisory group lobbyed universities and flight schools to allow, in an as neutral a way as possible, insight and education of their students into what it is REALLY like to be a line pilot and the real-life, non flying issues a line pilot must deal with. Nothing like a little lesson in reality to dust away the holier than thou attitude that some pilots seem to adopt.

Unfortunately, that process would meet with some really hard political rocks and is an unlikely scenario. A nice thought though. Maybe there is a middle of the road scenario where better education of non-flying issues for the line pilot can be attained.

 

[Mamma]

Rez O Lewshun, shut up.


I've been reading your posts and the same theme keeps coming up: if you aren't working at union headquarters every day, you have no say in this union or what happens.

Some of us have lives outside of union service. We did the age 60 poll. It was worded in a way that the executive board could say we wanted a change. Using this farce they changed the union's stance on age 60. Very underhanded.

Like someone else said. Keep brown nosing and hope they invite you inside. But quit telling us it is OUR fault that caused this.

I had a great life out of union service and I let everyone else do all the work and all I got to show for it is this lousy t-shirt...and about $500 grand of future earnings in the toilet due to a lost upgrade schedule. Was my great apathetic life in regards to my career worth $500 grand? Probably not. Should I put my trust in Prater even after he said countless times he was supporting an age 65 law change? Will I ever trust any union stooge with $500 grand of my future earnings or career satisfaction for that matter? Probably not. Maybe next time I when all the alarm bells of another costly issue start going off I will step up to the plate and start swinging. Maybe you should too.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Rez,

I understand what you are saying about participation. But after 4 airlines now of which three have been ALPA, I have had the pleasure of dealing with pretty serious career altering issues at 3 of them. (Two mergers, one strike, and regional whipsaws) The catagories of my carriers range from Regionals to Freight to Majors.

I have attended the meetings, walked the picket lines, signed the petitions, and taken the surveys etc etc etc. And in all that what I have seen is a self serving national that ignores the individual pilot groups. Especially if it means losing money from nationals pockets. They have become the big business mgmt. teams that they were founded to fight.

The best item I have seen was when ALPA sent me a nice set of ALPA battle wings after the strike, along with a letter of recognition etc Blah blah blah........all after they had done everything possible to make us bend to the opposing view point that was in direct conflict with the needs and protections of our pilot group in favor of the larger more lucrative (for ALPA nat.) pilot group.

Just like the politicians in Washington, they had nothing to do with our success but were quick to try and claim the credit.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I understadn you fustration and it is valid....

Of course the sub-factions within ALPA are going to trey and bend you thier way... it happens all the time.. in family, church, etc....

So what is the end game............. resignation? Or become better in politics?

 

[Cadillac]

These rebuttal posts of yours just keep getting longer, don't they rez?

You should probably spend more time carrying out my wishes as a dues paying member than typing inane posts on an online forum.

Now get back to work screwing us.

 

[blzr]

Seriously, you can call payroll and get them to STOP the automatic draft every paycheck to ALPA. I did back in 2002. Then send in money whenever, if ever, you feel like it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

These rebuttal posts of yours just keep getting longer, don't they rez?

You should probably spend more time carrying out my wishes as a dues paying member than typing inane posts on an online forum.

Now get back to work screwing us.

Caddillac-

You, by defualt, prove my point. Your very existence. The more you respond... the more proof you create.

You are angry and fustrated... yet you have no clue how to solve your issues. You have a problem with ALPA. Yet you exepct others to solve your problem.

Self reflection is not an option.... so you will continue to dwell in your negative state...



Perhaps you are more suited for a cubical job, where there is no union. That way you won't be miserable.

 

[flygirlqt]

Caddillac-

You, by defualt, prove my point. Your very existence. The more you respond... the more proof you create.

You are angry and fustrated... yet you have no clue how to solve your issues. You have a problem with ALPA. Yet you exepct others to solve your problem.

Self reflection is not an option.... so you will continue to dwell in your negative state...



Perhaps you are more suited for a cubical job, where there is no union. That way you won't be miserable.

With the money being paid to ALPA National they should be able to figure on their own how to solve the obvious problems facing the ALPA membership. Instead of constantly whining it is a membership problem, it is high time to admit the membership acts, feels and responds the way they do because of out of touch, rudderless ALPA leadership. A leadership that makes decisions based on the gains for a few rather than the whole of it;s individual members.

Has it ever occurred to you that it also may not be in ALPA National "and" the individual officers own personal financial interests to actually fix what is wrong?

The way the system is set up now they get their money one way or another. If that automatic dues deduction or you lose your job gravy train was interrupted, you can bet your worthless ALPA card there would be some changes made right away.

Say what you want but ALPA has denigrated into nothing more than a cash cow for a very select few. It now mirrors perfectly the corporate greed model that it is supposed to protect it's own members against.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

With the money being paid to ALPA National they should be able to figure on their own how to solve the obvious problems facing the ALPA membership.

Sorry... it can't be done. The membership refuses to particapte.

Instead of constantly whining it is a membership problem, it is high time to admit the membership acts, feels and responds the way they do because of out of touch, rudderless ALPA leadership.

So... you are just going to wait till the leadership behaves the way you think they should, without telling them what you want done. You won't get involved to make them accountable...

A leadership that makes decisions based on the gains for a few rather than the whole of it;s individual members.

Since you won't do anything about it.... who cares!!

Has it ever occurred to you that it also may not be in ALPA National "and" the individual officers own personal financial interests to actually fix what is wrong?

Can you provide a rational follow up to this... justify it..

The way the system is set up now they get their money one way or another. If that automatic dues deduction or you lose your job gravy train was interrupted, you can bet your worthless ALPA card there would be some changes made right away.

hmmm... let's see if that was the case... then why would anyone do the job in the first place... and then where would we be...

Say what you want but ALPA has denigrated into nothing more than a cash cow for a very select few. It now mirrors perfectly the corporate greed model that it is supposed to protect it's own members against.

Hardly. You need it to be like that to justify your thoughts and actions. ALPA national salaries are not 800% of employees.

In addition, which you refuse to address is ALPA National Prez salary is determined by the membership. Unlike CEO's.

You probably don't recall but the previous Prez salary was a big deal for whiners like you. At the last BOD, when the Prez salary came up there was no objection. THE MEMBERSHIP HAD NO OBJECTION.

Your lack of understanding and historical knowledge is clear. In order for ALPA to get better..you must first self educate. Only then will you be able to offer workable solutions...

Merry Christmas...

 

[Occam's Razor]

You should probably spend more time carrying out my wishes as a dues paying member than typing inane posts on an online forum.

Yeah, sombody's gotta carry out your wishes...cuz you sure as heck won't do it!

Grab a rifle and stand a post, chump!

Or just continue to spew your victim-oriented drivel here. "Collective"? Can't be!! When other members don't agree with you...they're weasels.

No job is too difficult for the dork who doesn't have to do it.

Now get back to work screwing us.

"work"!!

Good one! Like you know the meaning of the word!