whymeworry?
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2005
- Posts
- 701
OK, I have to chime in here.
EK is great. I have a lot of buddies there and they tell me they love it. But at the end of the day, IMO, most guys that go suffer from a bit of SJS, or WBS (aka: Wide-body syndrome). Nothing wrong with that if you don't have other options, but I wouldn't leave a US major for EK.
For me, flying destinations are way low on the priority list compared to QOL of the job. QOL defined as 1) Days off, 2) Work rules 3) Job Security 4) Pay.
My NET pay for the past 3 months, at 3rd yr FO rate, has averaged nearly as much as a 777 EK capt (according to what y'all stated are the rates). My housing costs are so low ($1300/ mo) that I could care less about having to take care of that myself. At least I decide where and how I want to live, rather than my company making that decision for me (even if I do like that company, as most EK drivers claim).
What a lot of pilots don't consider is the other side of getting more pay and paying your own way as we do here in the US:
1) Schooling: Where I live, the public schools are considered on par with that of pvt, no need to pay for pvt but if I did need to pay for schooling, at least I would have the choice of where I send my kids for their education. In DXB, while the pvt schooling is excellent, the number of schools to chose from is limited.
2) Int-free car loan: One of my cars is paid off, the other is a 3.5% rate. For me, the free car loan is hardly considered a reason to leave for the Middle East. But I will agree its a nice benefit for some.
3) Days off: As you get senior in the US, you can get 2/3 of the month off. Or, you could just bid the triple seven. In fact, at CAL, the most junior FO line on the 777 out of EWR has 20-21 days off per month. At EK, the days off are half that. I could care less about where I fly if I don't have the time to learn about the area and enjoy my time there with my family. With plenty of days off to yourself, you can see virtually all of the destinations EK fly's to and then some.
4) Free housing. As I said above, my housing costs are so low that I don't really see this as all that much of a benefit. For some who live in California or the Northeast, they might see free housing as a considerable lure. But remember, you're still stuck in DXB. After you get over the honeymoon of a new place, it's still the Middle East, I don't care how cosmopolitan you my think DXB is. Couple that with the $250,000 in equity I have made over the past few years and you can quickly see that paying for your own housing does have some realized benefits.
5) Your family. Whether or not you want to admit it, your happiness is directly affected by your family's well-being. If their not happy in DXB, you won't be. It's brutally hot there for 6 months a year. The pleasant winter somewhat makes up for that but the humidity in the summer is on par with that of Houston... and it lasts a lot longer than Houston's does (6 mo vs. 4). Will they really be able to handle DXB for the long haul? What about their family in the US or elsewhere? Without free travel, will they be able to get home as much as they would like?
6) Travel: Mine is free in econ, $25.00 in BF/FC. Is that a benefit? You bet it is. Especially if you travel a lot. I presently don't travel all that much anymore but I still equate my travel bennies to over $40,000/ yr, considering all the travel my family does... meaning I would spend another $40K per year to to cover theirs and my travel.
7) Healthcare: Mine is approx: $280 per month for dental, medical, and vision for the entire family. Is that too much? I think so. But still, it's very managable and I have access to the best doctors in the world. With an PPO you don't need a PCP. In fact, for a nominal charge, I can even go out of network. And as my pay ratchets up the monthly medical premiums becomes less distracting as they becomes a smaller percentage of total pay.
8) Pay: Even with paying taxes, I will make nearly double what an EK skipper takes in when I upgrade to WB captain. Sure that will take a bit longer than at EK but I will have thousands more days off in the march toward upgrade during the meantime.
9) Options: Sometimes, I get sick of international. It's nice to fly a US domestic line now and again. Sure Int'l is more productive but if I fly turns out of my base I can put in 24 hrs in 3 days, thereby guaranteeing me the next 4 days off. If I club that with in the reverse order the following week I can do 8 days off in a row every other week. Plus, I'm not flying at night when I fly domestic. It's just nice to have that option.
10) Tax-free status?: This only exists for Americans if you are out of the country for 330 days per annum. You will basically have to limit yourself to the rest of the world for all but 30 days per year if you want to reap the full returns of such benefit . This may work for some. But for others who want to visit family or take vacation in America, this can be a non-starter. Once you're overseas for a while, you do start to miss home. A lot more than most care to admit. Although I will admit as global society becomes more homogenized, its much easier to be away from home now than it has ever been. To really reap the rewards of a tax-free salary and offset the drawback of the 330 DPA rule, one has to make $12,500 overseas, in my book. I am speaking strictly in terms of a career, not a contract job. Contract work differs in that you know you are there only for a short time and will eventually return so you sort of go for the experience, as well as the pay.
One more thing: You could stay out of the US for 20 years, but by law you are still required to pay social security taxes on earnings made overseas. Can you hide those earnings? For now, yes. But remember, if you fudge your taxes the penalty is interest owed to the IRS on the amount you didn't pay. By contrast, if you LIE about your earnings and fail to report, that is punishable with prison time. Is it really worth it to go to prison for 10 years just to save a few thousand bucks? And I don't think being able to hide money is going to last much longer as all governments are becoming more and more globally connected in the name of "security". It's only a matter of time before the IRS signs some secret deal to get access to all monies made overseas.
11) Retirement: Ours has been fixed as has most others. If you're just starting out at a US major, your retirement will be seven figures if you can put in 25 years. Plus it's in YOUR NAME. Meaning the greedy mgmt types can't get their hands on it when their looking to boost their bonus' (though I'm sure some MBA weasel will figure out a way within a few years).
AND THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF WORKING FOR A US MAJOR?:
12) Union. I've saved the best for last. Without a doubt, the best part about my job is that I am protected by the best union in the world. Sure I bitch about the union as much as the next guy but the alternative is simply not an alternative. Our union is like my own personal lawyer/ politician/ on-site rep/ doctor/ accountant/ agent. The job protection, seniority protection, and professional progression that a fully capable union offers is not be taken lightly. I have worked both sides of the equation. While our union and it's antics certainly aren't perfect, working without one can be a more mentally taxing over a career. I know there are many on this board who will attempt to counter my opinion so remember this is just that, my opinion. And as a pilot who has worked without a union in the past, I much prefer, over the long term, to be part of one than not. My seniority number is something that nobody can take away until I get fired. I don't have to kiss ass at work, don't have to worry about someone screwing me. And if I ever make a un-intentional mistake, I know my union will bust its collective ass to get me back into the cockpit ASAP with full seniority and back pay.
I know a few guys who left DAL during the bankruptcy. Some went to EK, others went to jobs in Asia. Most had over 10 years seniority. They ALL say they don't regret it. I say, ignorance is bliss. I think they are ignoring the turn-around DAL has pulled off thus far. And they are ignoring the two huge payout that were made to DAL pilots as a result of the claim award. Further, DAL's contract is considerably better than that of my airline. If I can see significant benefits to a US Major vs. EK or other overseas operators using my airlines remuneration package, then a DAL pilot would have a much greater argument to make using their contract. Pilots, people for that matter, then to rationalize their decisions (kind of what I'm doing now, eh?). No DAL pilot who left, unless exceedingly obvious, is going to openly admit they made the right decisions. Instead they will compare the negatives of DAL to the positives of life at EK. Hardly a reasonable conclusion.
Without a doubt, most of these overseas airlines STILL pay too little to those who have options in America. And when US Majors take their profession back from mgmt, which we will be doing over the next 1-4 years, you will see an even greater disparity in pay and QOL.
Having worked overseas before, I get contract offers all the time, most for double my present net pay with a few for nearly triple that. If my airline were offering COLAs, I would jump at the opportunity but since they're not, I'm certainly not ignorant enough to quit a major job for a gig based solely on pay. QOL is everything. The whole package must add up or else the pay had better exceed $30,000 per month. I'm not trying to sound elitist, just pointing out what my days off and work rules are worth to me.
That said, for those who don't have options, EK and other overseas carriers are a great place to park yourself until that better job comes along. But I certainly wouldn't rule out US majors now or anytime in the future.
EK is great. I have a lot of buddies there and they tell me they love it. But at the end of the day, IMO, most guys that go suffer from a bit of SJS, or WBS (aka: Wide-body syndrome). Nothing wrong with that if you don't have other options, but I wouldn't leave a US major for EK.
For me, flying destinations are way low on the priority list compared to QOL of the job. QOL defined as 1) Days off, 2) Work rules 3) Job Security 4) Pay.
My NET pay for the past 3 months, at 3rd yr FO rate, has averaged nearly as much as a 777 EK capt (according to what y'all stated are the rates). My housing costs are so low ($1300/ mo) that I could care less about having to take care of that myself. At least I decide where and how I want to live, rather than my company making that decision for me (even if I do like that company, as most EK drivers claim).
What a lot of pilots don't consider is the other side of getting more pay and paying your own way as we do here in the US:
1) Schooling: Where I live, the public schools are considered on par with that of pvt, no need to pay for pvt but if I did need to pay for schooling, at least I would have the choice of where I send my kids for their education. In DXB, while the pvt schooling is excellent, the number of schools to chose from is limited.
2) Int-free car loan: One of my cars is paid off, the other is a 3.5% rate. For me, the free car loan is hardly considered a reason to leave for the Middle East. But I will agree its a nice benefit for some.
3) Days off: As you get senior in the US, you can get 2/3 of the month off. Or, you could just bid the triple seven. In fact, at CAL, the most junior FO line on the 777 out of EWR has 20-21 days off per month. At EK, the days off are half that. I could care less about where I fly if I don't have the time to learn about the area and enjoy my time there with my family. With plenty of days off to yourself, you can see virtually all of the destinations EK fly's to and then some.
4) Free housing. As I said above, my housing costs are so low that I don't really see this as all that much of a benefit. For some who live in California or the Northeast, they might see free housing as a considerable lure. But remember, you're still stuck in DXB. After you get over the honeymoon of a new place, it's still the Middle East, I don't care how cosmopolitan you my think DXB is. Couple that with the $250,000 in equity I have made over the past few years and you can quickly see that paying for your own housing does have some realized benefits.
5) Your family. Whether or not you want to admit it, your happiness is directly affected by your family's well-being. If their not happy in DXB, you won't be. It's brutally hot there for 6 months a year. The pleasant winter somewhat makes up for that but the humidity in the summer is on par with that of Houston... and it lasts a lot longer than Houston's does (6 mo vs. 4). Will they really be able to handle DXB for the long haul? What about their family in the US or elsewhere? Without free travel, will they be able to get home as much as they would like?
6) Travel: Mine is free in econ, $25.00 in BF/FC. Is that a benefit? You bet it is. Especially if you travel a lot. I presently don't travel all that much anymore but I still equate my travel bennies to over $40,000/ yr, considering all the travel my family does... meaning I would spend another $40K per year to to cover theirs and my travel.
7) Healthcare: Mine is approx: $280 per month for dental, medical, and vision for the entire family. Is that too much? I think so. But still, it's very managable and I have access to the best doctors in the world. With an PPO you don't need a PCP. In fact, for a nominal charge, I can even go out of network. And as my pay ratchets up the monthly medical premiums becomes less distracting as they becomes a smaller percentage of total pay.
8) Pay: Even with paying taxes, I will make nearly double what an EK skipper takes in when I upgrade to WB captain. Sure that will take a bit longer than at EK but I will have thousands more days off in the march toward upgrade during the meantime.
9) Options: Sometimes, I get sick of international. It's nice to fly a US domestic line now and again. Sure Int'l is more productive but if I fly turns out of my base I can put in 24 hrs in 3 days, thereby guaranteeing me the next 4 days off. If I club that with in the reverse order the following week I can do 8 days off in a row every other week. Plus, I'm not flying at night when I fly domestic. It's just nice to have that option.
10) Tax-free status?: This only exists for Americans if you are out of the country for 330 days per annum. You will basically have to limit yourself to the rest of the world for all but 30 days per year if you want to reap the full returns of such benefit . This may work for some. But for others who want to visit family or take vacation in America, this can be a non-starter. Once you're overseas for a while, you do start to miss home. A lot more than most care to admit. Although I will admit as global society becomes more homogenized, its much easier to be away from home now than it has ever been. To really reap the rewards of a tax-free salary and offset the drawback of the 330 DPA rule, one has to make $12,500 overseas, in my book. I am speaking strictly in terms of a career, not a contract job. Contract work differs in that you know you are there only for a short time and will eventually return so you sort of go for the experience, as well as the pay.
One more thing: You could stay out of the US for 20 years, but by law you are still required to pay social security taxes on earnings made overseas. Can you hide those earnings? For now, yes. But remember, if you fudge your taxes the penalty is interest owed to the IRS on the amount you didn't pay. By contrast, if you LIE about your earnings and fail to report, that is punishable with prison time. Is it really worth it to go to prison for 10 years just to save a few thousand bucks? And I don't think being able to hide money is going to last much longer as all governments are becoming more and more globally connected in the name of "security". It's only a matter of time before the IRS signs some secret deal to get access to all monies made overseas.
11) Retirement: Ours has been fixed as has most others. If you're just starting out at a US major, your retirement will be seven figures if you can put in 25 years. Plus it's in YOUR NAME. Meaning the greedy mgmt types can't get their hands on it when their looking to boost their bonus' (though I'm sure some MBA weasel will figure out a way within a few years).
AND THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF WORKING FOR A US MAJOR?:
12) Union. I've saved the best for last. Without a doubt, the best part about my job is that I am protected by the best union in the world. Sure I bitch about the union as much as the next guy but the alternative is simply not an alternative. Our union is like my own personal lawyer/ politician/ on-site rep/ doctor/ accountant/ agent. The job protection, seniority protection, and professional progression that a fully capable union offers is not be taken lightly. I have worked both sides of the equation. While our union and it's antics certainly aren't perfect, working without one can be a more mentally taxing over a career. I know there are many on this board who will attempt to counter my opinion so remember this is just that, my opinion. And as a pilot who has worked without a union in the past, I much prefer, over the long term, to be part of one than not. My seniority number is something that nobody can take away until I get fired. I don't have to kiss ass at work, don't have to worry about someone screwing me. And if I ever make a un-intentional mistake, I know my union will bust its collective ass to get me back into the cockpit ASAP with full seniority and back pay.
I know a few guys who left DAL during the bankruptcy. Some went to EK, others went to jobs in Asia. Most had over 10 years seniority. They ALL say they don't regret it. I say, ignorance is bliss. I think they are ignoring the turn-around DAL has pulled off thus far. And they are ignoring the two huge payout that were made to DAL pilots as a result of the claim award. Further, DAL's contract is considerably better than that of my airline. If I can see significant benefits to a US Major vs. EK or other overseas operators using my airlines remuneration package, then a DAL pilot would have a much greater argument to make using their contract. Pilots, people for that matter, then to rationalize their decisions (kind of what I'm doing now, eh?). No DAL pilot who left, unless exceedingly obvious, is going to openly admit they made the right decisions. Instead they will compare the negatives of DAL to the positives of life at EK. Hardly a reasonable conclusion.
Without a doubt, most of these overseas airlines STILL pay too little to those who have options in America. And when US Majors take their profession back from mgmt, which we will be doing over the next 1-4 years, you will see an even greater disparity in pay and QOL.
Having worked overseas before, I get contract offers all the time, most for double my present net pay with a few for nearly triple that. If my airline were offering COLAs, I would jump at the opportunity but since they're not, I'm certainly not ignorant enough to quit a major job for a gig based solely on pay. QOL is everything. The whole package must add up or else the pay had better exceed $30,000 per month. I'm not trying to sound elitist, just pointing out what my days off and work rules are worth to me.
That said, for those who don't have options, EK and other overseas carriers are a great place to park yourself until that better job comes along. But I certainly wouldn't rule out US majors now or anytime in the future.
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