NO JS to anti-ALPA types

[Soverytired]

A semantic discussion, that's all. I think you're forgetting that there are numerous highly trained, very skilled, hard working and technically proficient blue collar workers out there who need to know as much or more than your average pilot. They certainly don't really obsess about "blue collar vs. professional". There are certainly ways pilots qualify as "professionals", but in the strictest sense, a "white collar professional" doesn't really apply. My opinion, of course.

Frankly, the technical aspects of being a pilot "profession" are getting easier by the year .. . automation, aircraft reliability, ATC assistance, better weather radar/forecasts, etc. I think the whole ego driven "we pilots are gods of the sky" is sounding increasingly hollow to management, stockholders, and the general public.

The only intrinsic quality an aviator needs is GOOD JUDGMENT. Not really "teachable", difficult to define, and is more a factor of age, experience and internal temperament than anything else.

On this point, more than anything, unions shoot themselves in the foot big time on this, because in any union, you are a replaceable cog, exactly equal in all respects to every other pilot in the union. Everyone gets treated 100% the same, whether they are the world's most colossal f-up or Space Shuttle material . . it doesn't matter.

Unions are just terrible at self-policing. Only one crime is unforgivable . . "crossing the union", which is surely an offense, but it's not the only thing they need to address. True "professionals" are very strict on professional standards and will self-police. Poor performing lawyers and doctors routinely face peer boards of inquiry in which they have to defend their right to continue having a license to practice.

Pilot unions, to my knowledge, have no such boards or self-policing powers, to the ultimate detriment of the entire group.

 

[JoeMerchant]

A semantic discussion, that's all. I think you're forgetting that there are numerous highly trained, very skilled, hard working and technically proficient blue collar workers out there who need to know as much or more than your average pilot. They certainly don't really obsess about "blue collar vs. professional". There are certainly ways pilots qualify as "professionals", but in the strictest sense, a "white collar professional" doesn't really apply. My opinion, of course.

Frankly, the technical aspects of being a pilot "profession" are getting easier by the year .. . automation, aircraft reliability, ATC assistance, better weather radar/forecasts, etc. I think the whole ego driven "we pilots are gods of the sky" is sounding increasingly hollow to management, stockholders, and the general public.

The only intrinsic quality an aviator needs is GOOD JUDGMENT. Not really "teachable", difficult to define, and is more a factor of age, experience and internal temperament than anything else.

On this point, more than anything, unions shoot themselves in the foot big time on this, because in any union, you are a replaceable cog, exactly equal in all respects to every other pilot in the union. Everyone gets treated 100% the same, whether they are the worlds most colossal f-up or Space Shuttle material . . it doesn't matter.

Very well said....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Joe... it bothers me when you post impaired.... you just don't live up to your potential

Sorry Rez, but there are more pressing issues...... The threat to my job comes from fellow union "brothers" at carriers such as Mesa, PCL, and even mainline pilots who are willing to underbid the current ASA and CMR 700 rates.... Lets deal with the immediate threat of ALPA carriers competing for flying within a brand....

If my job goes to another ALPA carrier or other competitor, then I really don't give a d@mn about the other issues.....

If you are not careful Joey... foreign nationals and companies will take your job....

It appears it is when it comes to experience levels of 121 pilots..... You ALPA cheerleaders have thrown in the towel on trying to raise pilot standards rather than lower them.... I don't see the other "professions" doing that.....

Joe.... where did you ever get the idea that it was ALPA's job to provide a certina level of experience? These expectations you people come up are amazing...

Other professions set higher standards and can transport their experience across company lines.... When we start doing that, then and only then, can we compare our situation to that of lawyers and doctors....

Are you a doctor? A lawyer? You sound lime the seven year olds in my kids elementry school....

[use whiney voice]... well Jimmy gets to do it like that..why can't I.... wah wah wah...

 

[ASADriver]

So Rezolewshun, what are your answers? What specific things can we do? You say you are fixing ALPA. You must agree that it is broke if you are trying to fix it. Please give specific solutions to fix things.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Unions are just terrible at self-policing.

Holy Mackeral!

Are you serious?

Piloting an airliner in the United States is the most closely-regulated job in the World!

The FAA, managements, cops, TSA, and dorks with cell phones in seat 22B are all "policing" pilots!

The union exists for one reason only: To do collectively what we don't have the leverage to do individually. To that end, each union functions as an advocate for its members.

ProStan, Aeromedical, and HIMS Committees most certainly perform a "policing" function, but only to the extent they get help and treatment for members. Again, part of the advocacy function.

Now you're suggesting pilots need ANOTHER organization hammering them?

I...Disagree...With...You.

(sheesh!)

True "professionals" are very strict on professional standards and will self-police. Poor performing lawyers and doctors routinely face peer boards of inquiry in which they have to defend their right to continue having a license to practice.

Yeah...right!

Who has a higher incidence of illegal drug use as a profession...pilots or doctors?

Which profession kills more people through negligence each year...pilots or doctors?

Ever heard a CVR on the evening news of a doctor screwing up in the O.R.?

Any weasely, bed-wetting lawyers out there, fully liscensed to practice law?

Did you watch ANY of the OJ trial?

"If you don't know...you truly blow!"

Pilot unions, to my knowledge, have no such boards or self-policing powers, to the ultimate detriment of the entire group.

EVERYBODY polices pilots!

Got that?

Everybody!

Unions are on our side.

Somebody should be.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

A semantic discussion, that's all. I think you're forgetting that there are numerous highly trained, very skilled, hard working and technically proficient blue collar workers out there who need to know as much or more than your average pilot. They certainly don't really obsess about "blue collar vs. professional". There are certainly ways pilots qualify as "professionals", but in the strictest sense, a "white collar professional" doesn't really apply. My opinion, of course.

Once again... professionals look out for the betterment of the public.. they make personal sacrfices for the betterment of the public.

When a doctor gets called at 5am he doesn't say... Naw...I am too tired. Or if a patient can't pay he doesn't withhold medical care..

The choice is up to you..but when you are delayed or extended and your passengers want to get home.. you don't just split and say..my shift is over... see ya.. and leave your pax in the lurch...

In addition ALPA's safety and engineering dept is respected world over... except by its own members... and the accident investigation is in the best interest of the public...paid for by our dues...

Frankly, the technical aspects of being a pilot "profession" are getting easier by the year .. . automation, aircraft reliability, ATC assistance, better weather radar/forecasts, etc. I think the whole ego driven "we pilots are gods of the sky" is sounding increasingly hollow to management, stockholders, and the general public.

It might be..but the new challenge is working together as a team... most accidents occur todays becuase pilots lose SA or they can't work well with others.... coincidental with ALPA affairs?

The only intrinsic quality an aviator needs is GOOD JUDGMENT. Not really "teachable", difficult to define, and is more a factor of age, experience and internal temperament than anything else.

That and good people skills.... which are hard to find.. teamwork... which isn't found here...

On this point, more than anything, unions shoot themselves in the foot big time on this, because in any union, you are a replaceable cog, exactly equal in all respects to every other pilot in the union. Everyone gets treated 100% the same, whether they are the world's most colossal f-up or Space Shuttle material . . it doesn't matter.

Got a better way?

Unions are just terrible at self-policing. Only one crime is unforgivable . . "crossing the union", which is surely an offense, but it's not the only thing they need to address. True "professionals" are very strict on professional standards and will self-police. Poor performing lawyers and doctors routinely face peer boards of inquiry in which they have to defend their right to continue having a license to practice.

Lets be honest here.... have you read the ALPA Code of Ethics? Well? have you ever?

Pilot unions, to my knowledge, have no such boards or self-policing powers, to the ultimate detriment of the entire group.

I guess you haven't....

Very well said....

It depends on your audience...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So Rezolewshun, what are your answers? What specific things can we do? You say you are fixing ALPA. You must agree that it is broke if you are trying to fix it. Please give specific solutions to fix things.

What each individual can do immediately is control thier own particaption and education. Both are pathetic....

What ALPA can do is work on its leadership....on all levels.. from the individual members to the officers.

The MECs function like warring Iraqi tribes... there is too much distrust and suspect... and not enough cooperation.

The membership functions on expectations... not reality... ALPA is to blame in part because it promotes these espectations for the quick sell to get pilots to buy into ALPA.

Both ALPA and the membership need to change that perception... ALPA is a service organization... by that it is meant... what are you going to do to serve your fellow pilot..... NOT...what is ALPA going to do for me....!

A broad brush no doubt... but there are allot problems... complex ones... and complaining on FI that ALPA isn't everything is regressive... the real guys are working the problems and trying to be progressive....

It is easy to just say... ALPA should do a National List, National Pay rates, National Strikes, etc.. but there are real issues of implemenation... and only once you get involved and be a player at the table can you address them....

Got a better way?

 

[N2264J]

Where do you get this idea that ALPA jumpseat policy is binding on the members?

YOU are ALPA.

Anyone who can hold these two thoughts in their head simultaneously without recognizing the conflict isn't wrapped too tight.

This may give you some insight about why ALPA is so dysfunctional: the selective, inconsistent application of policy ie merger "policy," alter ego "policy," jumpseat "policy," etc.

 

[JoeMerchant]

This may give you some insight about why ALPA is so dysfunctional: the selective, inconsistent application of policy ie merger "policy," alter ego "policy," jumpseat "policy," etc.

...... don't forget the age 60 position...... We oppose age 60..... no we support it now....... no we oppose it again..... Oh let's just tie it to the legacy pension plans....... If they have them we support age 60..... if they don't, we oppose it.....

 

[Caspian27]

To all those compelled to be stubborn:

Oh for GODS SAKES! So long as the jumpseater is in CASS or reciprocal and cleared, being polite, and acknowledging of your cockpit rules, GIVE THE GUY THE JUMPSEAT! It is that simple!

I know a few, and I mean, A FEW, captains that have some massive chip on their shoulder or insecurity issues (or any other personality flaw) that makes them HELL to fly with. I have seen these FEW guys deny a jumpseater because he was with a certain pilot group (that was obviously non-ALPA and/or non-union). Those FEW look so proud of their misplaced efficacy and are completely oblivious to the fact that the people they fly with are either laughing at them behind their backs and/or completely hated by the majority of the base and/or members of the pilot group they come in contact.

Here's a hint... if you want to evangelize ALPA, then invite the scorned jumpseater into the cockpit and have a meaningful and educating discussion with them! Oh yes, you also need to listen to their beliefs and opinions too, even if you think they are misplaced or without merit. All this of course if the jumpseater isn't being galactically stupid and rude.

What a pity that there are still individuals on the line who prescribe to the old world style of "if you don't agree with me, I will scorn you into submission". Kind of like the old style of religious conversion -- convert or you will die.

In summary, THERE ARE OTHER OPINIONS! LISTEN! Oh wait, you aren't listening anyway.

But if a hint is getting through, get off the high horse and don't start a jumpseat war, which you are most certainly doing even though you believe otherwise. Give a guy a ride to work, home, family event (emergency) so long as he/she is on CASS or a cleared reciprocal agreement. As Captain, you have the right to refuse jumpseat to someone you feel is not safe to be up there. SOMEONE YOU DISAGREE WITH IS NOT SOMEONE WHO IS UNSAFE TO BE IN YOUR COCKPIT! GEESH!

It's so nice to see a post with reason and logic!! Totally agree!