Who will win: EMB190 or CRJ1000

[BrickTop]

In the coming years the future of regional travel as we all know will find 90-110 seat aircraft as their service products. Despite scope, the birth of a new Legacy carrier is promising be it combination of contract and branded operations or strictly contracted. The operational battle between two very stable and operationally efficient airlines who are looking to find their niche with their respective product, leaves the question of future majority, the EMB or CRJ series aircraft. One aircraft a roomy passenger friendly and traditional with "big aircraft character," the other a more cost efficient and higher performance aircraft. I welcome all to submit their opionons to each aircrafts future.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Are you serious.

 

[Mesabi Miner]

Don't know anything about either one, but I hope the EMB wins out.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

whichever I am sure the pilots will lose.

 

[Lazy8]

I hope I'm not flying domestic long enough to find out.

 

[IADBLRJ41]

We all lose unless these airplanes are on a mainline cert and a mainline payscale.

 

[relief tube]

EXACTLY. To hell with us regionals flying anything more than 70 seats.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Answer:

RAH

I heard today from a friend of a friend that they will be flying as a sky team and star alliance codeshare...once again, going around scope.

i have no idea if this gets around scope, just being the messenger

 

[IronCityBlue]

Bricktop WTF are you talking about dood?

 

[ROSWELL41]

Answer:

RAH

I heard today from a friend of a friend that they will be flying as a sky team and star alliance codeshare...once again, going around scope.

i have no idea if this gets around scope, just being the messenger

What exactly does that mean? You guys already are codeshare partners in the alliances with Delta, UAL and Continental.

 

[PCL_128]

In the coming years the future of regional travel as we all know will find 90-110 seat aircraft as their service products.

No they won't. I don't see any pilot group ready to give up 100+ seat airplanes to let you guys fly. I know the pilots at my airline won't, as we just voted down two TAs with one of the big drivers being the fact that it allowed 70+ seat jets to be outsourced to contractors. There would have to be another 9/11-style industry collapse to bring even the slight possibility that mainline pilots would give up scope on 100+ seat aircraft. If you want to fly bigger airplanes, then how 'bout getting a job at an airline that flies them? Yeah, I know, radical idea.

 

[LearLove]

"as we just voted down two TAs with one of the big drivers being the fact that it allowed 70+ seat jets to be outsourced to contractors"

and many of us thank you for doing this. please stay strong and hope CAL follows also.

 

[BrickTop]

Bricktop WTF are you talking about dood?

The future of the airlines is as always a "matter of time issue" just as the 70 seat RJ's were put into service by either circumnavigation of CBA's or new agreements in the CBA's, you will see larger aircraft come into service. Read your history of how the legacy carriers became "legacy" carriers. A select few of the regional operators are right on track to becoming the next "legacy". Some feel the future of Major airlines will be as United does, utilizing many contracted operators under the companys colors and reducing the large body aircraft for a small pyramid of international operations. "Its all a "matter of time". Even if these industry predictions never happen the Post is in regard to an aircraft type."EMB or CRJ" Now please fire your classy and professional rebuttal's.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Brick Top - neither. The airlines are waiting for a plastic version of the 737, or A320, with 25% greater efficiency than the current generation aircraft. The engine manufacturers are starting to get spun up for this next battle ground as well. The 787 and A350 are almost here. The 737 replacement will be next.

The CRJ has a CRJ cabin and as you mentioned the E jet is nice, but not even a MD90, or 737N on a CASM basis & the majors are not going to let that E airplane be outsourced with more than 70 seats.

Airlines can not play the bankruptcy game due to the condition of the capital markets - so there will be no more bankruptcy court contracts. The next airline that declares, is gone.

You are completely wrong about "select few regionals being on the right track to become legacy carriers." For starters they lack their own brand, marketing, ticketing, marketing and infastructure to perform these functions. At best, they are aircraft and crew leasing companies with equivalent stability.

Since you think airlines are a "matter of time issue" tell us what the future holds? With $3.00 a gallon jet fuel making pilot salaries less of a factor and quality control more significant - the matter of time might be the obvious answer of airlines performing their own damn flying to obtain better quality control. (and I don't mean lousy pilots - I mean issues like fuel conservation, adherence to strict flight planning and limits on APU use to save gas)

Just my humble opinion.

 

[GearUpLightsIn]

Brick Top - neither. The airlines are waiting for a plastic version of the 737, or A320, with 25% greater efficiency than the current generation aircraft. The engine manufacturers are starting to get spun up for this next battle ground as well. The 787 and A350 are almost here. The 737 replacement will be next.

The CRJ has a CRJ cabin and as you mentioned the E jet is nice, but not even a MD90, or 737N on a CASM basis & the majors are not going to let that E airplane be outsourced with more than 70 seats.

Airlines can not play the bankruptcy game due to the condition of the capital markets - so there will be no more bankruptcy court contracts. The next airline that declares, is gone.

You are completely wrong about "select few regionals being on the right track to become legacy carriers." For starters they lack their own brand, marketing, ticketing, marketing and infastructure to perform these functions. At best, they are aircraft and crew leasing companies with equivalent stability.

Since you think airlines are a "matter of time issue" tell us what the future holds? With $3.00 a gallon jet fuel making pilot salaries less of a factor and quality control more significant - the matter of time might be the obvious answer of airlines performing their own damn flying to obtain better quality control. (and I don't mean lousy pilots - I mean issues like fuel conservation, adherence to strict flight planning and limits on APU use to save gas)

Just my humble opinion.

What he said

 

[Airline Driver]

No they won't. I don't see any pilot group ready to give up 100+ seat airplanes to let you guys fly. I know the pilots at my airline won't, as we just voted down two TAs with one of the big drivers being the fact that it allowed 70+ seat jets to be outsourced to contractors. There would have to be another 9/11-style industry collapse to bring even the slight possibility that mainline pilots would give up scope on 100+ seat aircraft. If you want to fly bigger airplanes, then how 'bout getting a job at an airline that flies them? Yeah, I know, radical idea.

The Same thing was said about 70 seat flying. Now the regionals are flying up to 86 seats. The Industry is changing and that is a Fact!!! Throw Bigger planes, more $$ and more international flying at the majors, I can most certainly see mainline pilots giving up the 100 seat scope. I am "NOT" saying that YES IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, but it has the potential of happening very soon.

I have never understood all this talk about how bigger planes shouldn't be at the regionals. Why shouldn't they?? Business is business and this is America. If a regional carrier that is now considered to be a National/LLC wants to grow as big as it can and perhaps someday becoming a new Legacy carrier, what it the problem with that?? It's all business.

Look at Airtran & Southwest, In the 90's Airtran formally Value Jet, was a small start up and now look at them they Grew, Gee what a concept getting bigger to grow their business. No one seemed to complain when they did that. What is the problem with a regional doing the same thing?? The Next 5 years are going to be very interesting in the airline industry.

I am not saying that Yes this is definitely going to happen, but I will say that Nothing would surprise me in this day and age. If It happens I would not be surprised, and if it does not, I am not surprised.

Making $100K per year at the regional level is not all that bad.

 

[sweptback]

Look at Airtran & Southwest, In the 90's Airtran formally Value Jet, was a small start up and now look at them they Grew, Gee what a concept getting bigger to grow their business. No one seemed to complain when they did that. What is the problem with a regional doing the same thing?? The Next 5 years are going to be very interesting in the airline industry.

The difference is that Southwest and Airtran were dependent on only themselves to grow. They had operational control of their airline, what they flew, and where they flew to. Today's regionals have no such control. They're dependent on many different major airline partners and have no say on when or where they fly. Sure, the business can grow, but as long as your strings are being pulled by another airline you will never be independent.

Making $100K per year at the regional level is not all that bad.

Except that it takes you 18 years to get to that point.

 

[Airline Driver]

The difference is that Southwest and Airtran were dependent on only themselves to grow. They had operational control of their airline, what they flew, and where they flew to. Today's regionals have no such control. They're dependent on many different major airline partners and have no say on when or where they fly. Sure, the business can grow, but as long as your strings are being pulled by another airline you will never be independent.

Except that it takes you 18 years to get to that point.

18 years?? Not at where I work, at some yes. You have a good point about operational control, but you can use the income from your airline partners to fund the cause. Express Jet is doing it with Continental

 

[PCL_128]

The Same thing was said about 70 seat flying. Now the regionals are flying up to 86 seats.

Which regional is flying around 86 seats? Also, in case you haven't noticed, many of us our still hanging on to our 70-seat flying, and we aren't about to let it go. Just because the pilots at DAL thought that the RJ flying was "too good for them" doesn't mean the rest of us are that stupid. I'll vote NO on any contract that allows any further outsourcing of our code.

I have never understood all this talk about how bigger planes shouldn't be at the regionals. Why shouldn't they??

As far as I'm concerned, the regionals shouldn't even be flying 50-seat jets. If it's got a jet engine on it, it should be flown by mainline pilots.

Business is business and this is America. If a regional carrier that is now considered to be a National/LLC wants to grow as big as it can and perhaps someday becoming a new Legacy carrier, what it the problem with that?? It's all business.

That may be all well and good for the greedy bastards in management, but it's horrible for pilots and our careers. If you want to fly bigger airplanes, then get a job at a mainline carrier that flies them and stop salivating at the thought of stealing my flying.

 

[AV1ATRX]

Which regional is flying around 86 seats?

I'm flying the E-175 at Republic Airlines with 86 seats as US Airways Express.

And for the love of God, Continental pilots please never give up scope.

 

[BoilerUP]

And for the love of God, Continental pilots please never give up scope.

Needs repeating.

Mainline pilots may have given up 50 seat jets, then 70 seat jets, then 74/76 seat jets, and finally 86 seat jets in the past....but they FINALLY see these (outsourced) large small jets for what they are - a direct threat to their jobs and career.

Folks often talk about how RAH pays a higher hourly CA rate for the 175 than Airways pays for the 190. It doesn't necessarily make it okay, but the same folks fail to mention the 175 is the highest-paying airframe at RAH, while the 190 is the lowest-paying, most junior airframe at Airways.

 

[BoilerUP]

I'm flying the E-175 at Republic Airlines with 86 seats as US Airways Express.

Pretty sure Mesa's USX CRJ-900s have 86 seats as well.

 

[XPOO]

According to usual FI.com posts, it will most likely be whichever aircraft the SkyWest pilot group will decide to fly for only 50-seat pay, right?

 

[CitationLover]

....As far as I'm concerned, the regionals shouldn't even be flying 50-seat jets. ....

didn't you fly a CRJ?!?!?! hypocritical don't you think?

 

[B727FA]

You have a good point about operational control, but you can use the income from your airline partners to fund the cause. Express Jet is doing it with Continental

And we all know how that's working out for them...

 

[B727FA]

As far as I'm concerned, the regionals shouldn't even be flying 50-seat jets.

Yeah, and NetJets shouldn't be flying a BBJ. What's next? Regionals shouldn't be flying turbine a/c? Only recips? The market will be met one way or another.

 

[PCL_128]

didn't you fly a CRJ?!?!?! hypocritical don't you think?

Go back and read my posts from the past few years. Even when I was flying them, I thought it was ridiculous that they had been outsourced to us. I simply did the flying that the mainline pilots had stupidly allowed to be outsourced, just as all of the current regional pilots are. I think you'll find that there are plenty of 50-seat drivers out there that feel the same way as me about this: all jet flying should be done by mainline carriers.

 

[Airline Driver]

Which regional is flying around 86 seats? Also, in case you haven't noticed, many of us our still hanging on to our 70-seat flying, and we aren't about to let it go. Just because the pilots at DAL thought that the RJ flying was "too good for them" doesn't mean the rest of us are that stupid. I'll vote NO on any contract that allows any further outsourcing of our code. As far as I'm concerned, the regionals shouldn't even be flying 50-seat jets. If it's got a jet engine on it, it should be flown by mainline pilots. That may be all well and good for the greedy bastards in management, but it's horrible for pilots and our careers. If you want to fly bigger airplanes, then get a job at a mainline carrier that flies them and stop salivating at the thought of stealing my flying.

Republic is flying the 175 which has the 86 seat configuration. Mesa's CRJ900's I believe have 86 seats as well. ASA is also flying the CRJ900, I am not exactly sure how many seats they configure their's. If you look at the manufacturing industry, or in-fact allot of other industry's, Corporate America is outsourcing lot's of it's work because they save money for their bottom line & stock holders are making more money. Greedy management you say, You Bet!! I agree with that 100% The same thing is happening in the airline industry. Sad but true.

Your flying a 717 which means you are flying at either Airtran or Midwest, which does not put you very far from being a regional. Your a National/LLC like my so called regional. I respect your opinion and I can certainly understand your opinion, however the airline industry is changing and the legacy carriers make far more money on international flying than they do domestic. That seems to be the way the industry is heading. Which opens the door for airlines like yours to pick up the domestic flying the legacy's are leaving behind!! so in reality it's good for you!!
Business is business and things are changing.

Go with the flow and God willing we will all have happy, Prosperous careers. Just don't ever cross the picket line. I see very few pilot's who are in this business for primarily the Money. We fly because we love to fly airplanes. Yes Money is nice the higher it gets and it will get higher again, we all just have to have some patience and let our union reps bargain for us.

 

[PCL_128]

Greedy management you say, You Bet!! I agree with that 100% The same thing is happening in the airline industry. Sad but true.

And you're cheering it along. Ridiculous.

Your flying a 717 which means you are flying at either Airtran or Midwest, which does not put you very far from being a regional. Your a National/LLC like my so called regional.

I always get a good laugh out of statements like this. Look at the side of your airplane. What name is there and what livery is it painted in? Is it the name of your regional airline? Didn't think so. You don't work for an airline. You work for a contractor. You fly someone else's code, be it DL, or CO, or UA, or whatever, but certainly not your own. Comparing your company to airlines like AAI, Frontier, or JetBlue is absurd.

I see very few pilot's who are in this business for primarily the Money. We fly because we love to fly airplanes. Yes Money is nice the higher it gets and it will get higher again, we all just have to have some patience and let our union reps bargain for us.

Your union reps can't bargain much for you if mainline flying keeps getting outsourced and more and more RFPs are issued for that flying. You don't seem to understand just how bad the situation is. When you don't fly your own flying, you are dependent on someone else to give you their flying. That means that they can put all kinds of stipulations on it, such as "nothing higher than industry-average pay rates." You don't fit the stipulations? Then someone who's a lower bidder will get that RFP. Then your management will come to you demanding concessions so you can get awarded the next RFP. If you don't agree? They'll just take you into bankruptcy to void your contract and force the concessions out of you to get that next RFP.

You seem to be very naive about how this process is working now. You should be in favor of keeping as much flying as possible at the mainline level so you still have a decent career to look forward to.

And by the way, I do love to fly, but I do this job primarily for the money. That's why it's called a job.

 

[Pilot124]

Go back and read my posts from the past few years. Even when I was flying them, I thought it was ridiculous that they had been outsourced to us. I simply did the flying that the mainline pilots had stupidly allowed to be outsourced, just as all of the current regional pilots are. I think you'll find that there are plenty of 50-seat drivers out there that feel the same way as me about this: all jet flying should be done by mainline carriers.

Please don't tell us that you think Airtran is mainline???
It is a glorified regional and that's it. You flew an crj then when you get hired at your glorified regional you say regionals shouldn't fly jets???WTF