Southwest pilot talks proceed quietly

[PCL_128]

Likewise, I am sure SWA management would love to pay SWA pilots your payrates.

Oh, I don't doubt it, which is exactly why we're fighting to increase them, just as I hope you guys fight for a B-plan.

 

[FlyingSig]

A B-Plan does not have these limits.

Not true (as just about every Delta pilot can tell you this year).

The maximum employee + employer contribution towards retirement is covered under 415 limits which for this year is $45000. If you put the max $15500 into your 401k this year this leaves $29500 that the employer can contribute to ALL your retirement accounts (401k & DC aka B-plan in any combination). Any benefit due to you over this amount will come as taxable income.

I haven't put a dime into my 401k this year because my bankruptcy claim filled up my 415 limits which in turn gave me a 23% pay raise for the rest of the year (2% company 401K, 9% company DC, plus my personal 14% 401K contribution). Personally I'm not looking foward to January because the extra money has been nice.

 

[PCL_128]

Not true (as just about every Delta pilot can tell you this year).

The maximum employee + employer contribution towards retirement is covered under 415 limits which for this year is $45000. If you put the max $15500 into your 401k this year this leaves $29500 that the employer can contribute to ALL your retirement accounts (401k & DC aka B-plan in any combination). Any benefit due to you over this amount will come as taxable income.

I haven't put a dime into my 401k this year because my bankruptcy claim filled up my 415 limits which in turn gave me a 23% pay raise for the rest of the year (2% company 401K, 9% company DC, plus my personal 14% 401K contribution). Personally I'm not looking foward to January because the extra money has been nice.

That's all true, but like you said, the 401k limit is only $15,500. If you only had a 401k, then you'd max out your retirement contributions much quicker than with a B-plan. With AirTran's current 10.5% B-plan, I'd have to make $428k in a year to max out my retirement contributions under the rules that apply to B-plans. A $45k limit is much better than a $15,500 limit, which is what anyone with only a 401k has to live with.

 

[Splert]

Not true (as just about every Delta pilot can tell you this year).

The maximum employee + employer contribution towards retirement is covered under 415 limits which for this year is $45000. If you put the max $15500 into your 401k this year this leaves $29500 that the employer can contribute to ALL your retirement accounts (401k & DC aka B-plan in any combination). Any benefit due to you over this amount will come as taxable income.

I haven't put a dime into my 401k this year because my bankruptcy claim filled up my 415 limits which in turn gave me a 23% pay raise for the rest of the year (2% company 401K, 9% company DC, plus my personal 14% 401K contribution). Personally I'm not looking foward to January because the extra money has been nice.

Roger...

A 401K suffers from HCE testing which limits the amount under the $45,000 limit if/when the 401K fails.

B-Plans are better than 401K only plans.

Splert...

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

That's all true, but like you said, the 401k limit is only $15,500. If you only had a 401k, then you'd max out your retirement contributions much quicker than with a B-plan. With AirTran's current 10.5% B-plan, I'd have to make $428k in a year to max out my retirement contributions under the rules that apply to B-plans. A $45k limit is much better than a $15,500 limit, which is what anyone with only a 401k has to live with.

In correct.

Lets say you make 200k and put away 8% That will get you roughly 15500. Company matches appx 8% (SWA plan) of your salary. Thats another 15500. Profit share of 10%, thats another 20000.

Thats a total of 51K. 45k is the max this year so 6k will have additional tax.

A salary of 100k (2nd year pay) will get you about 33,500 if you max out.

True, we have to save some of our own money, but if you are not doing that anyway youre fool enough to end up broke one way or another.

I didnt understand it at first either. Hope this helps.

 

[PCL_128]

You're counting profit share, and I would never do that. Profit share is never guaranteed, but a B-plan defined contribution is. No matter how well the company is doing, they still have to put 10.5% of my gross income into my B-plan account. I don't have to put a dime in, and nothing is dependent on company profits. There's no reason for SWA pilots to be responsible for funding their own retirements when every other major has either an A-fund or a B-fund that requires no employee contributions.

 

[SWA GUY]

PCL,

Can your company snatch your B-fund out from under you or is it protected?

 

[PCL_128]

B-funds are always protected. The money is in your own account. It's not at all like an A-fund (what people usually call a "pension"). The B-fund money is out of the reach of management, the bankruptcy courts, or anyone else. Basically, a B-fund is a 401k without a required employee contribution and with higher limits for yearly contributions.

 

[SWA GUY]

Thanks PCL.

 

[SWA/FO]

I'd say if they want to mess with our boarding procedures then we need a B fund at SWA.

 

[FlyingSig]

That's all true, but like you said, the 401k limit is only $15,500. If you only had a 401k, then you'd max out your retirement contributions much quicker than with a B-plan.

Not quite.

The $15500 is an EMPLOYEE contribution limitation. If AirTran wanted to put $45K in your 401K, they could without any penalty to you.

$45K is the max of all the sources, $15.5 is your personal limit of sheltering your own cash.

Every airline has their own deal. At SWA, it's a matching plan...employees have to give to get. At Delta, we get 2% in our 401K no matter what, no employee contributions required.

 

[FlyingSig]

B-funds are always protected. The money is in your own account. It's not at all like an A-fund (what people usually call a "pension"). The B-fund money is out of the reach of management, the bankruptcy courts, or anyone else. Basically, a B-fund is a 401k without a required employee contribution and with higher limits for yearly contributions.

Almost, but not quite here too.

Employer contributions are allowed to be in company stock instead of cash. While it is in your name, should you not move that once you're vested (if your company does that) and your company goes bankrupt a.) the value of your DC tanks and b.) withdrawls and transfers will be limited until the bankruptcy is settle as to what the true value of your account is.

Perhaps some former Midway pilots can pipe in here but I believe their 401K's were frozen during their bankruptcy and they were not allowed to roll them over to their new employers until all the dust settled... Not a big deal if you're young but if the ch11/7 happens around retirement time you're hosed.... not to mention all the lost returns of not being able to reinvest the money elsewhere.

 

[BobbyB]

There's no reason for SWA pilots to be responsible for funding their own retirements when every other major has either an A-fund or a B-fund that requires no employee contributions.

I think the last thing we need to do is run SWA like "every other major." The B fund is a sweet deal, but the vast majority of pilots at SWA are extremely happy with our compensation IN CONJUNCTION with a company that continues to make money. Only 31-ish years of profitability, and we'd like to see lots more. You won't see a B plan in the new contract, and just about everybody will approve it.

 

[Sluggo_63]

Tell him what?

I'd tell him the same thing I'd tell the $400,000 SWA Captain...

...Go spend some time with your family

 

[IslandDriver]

Do you think thay will lower the new hire pay....to give management a bone?

 

[Babylon]

In correct.

Lets say you make 200k and put away 8% That will get you roughly 15500. Company matches appx 8% (SWA plan) of your salary. Thats another 15500. Profit share of 10%, thats another 20000.

Thats a total of 51K. 45k is the max this year so 6k will have additional tax.

A salary of 100k (2nd year pay) will get you about 33,500 if you max out.

True, we have to save some of our own money, but if you are not doing that anyway youre fool enough to end up broke one way or another.

I didnt understand it at first either. Hope this helps.

Hose what are you smoking? $100K for second year SWA pilot? I've got 5 guys in my squadron that are all 2-3 year pilots at SWA and none will make $100K this year (their words).

 

[vixin]

Hose what are you smoking? $100K for second year SWA pilot? I've got 5 guys in my squadron that are all 2-3 year pilots at SWA and none will make $100K this year (their words).

I did my second year without working that hard. Maybe the boys from your squadron are getting trips pulled for reserve duty.

 

[Reebo]

Hose what are you smoking? $100K for second year SWA pilot? I've got 5 guys in my squadron that are all 2-3 year pilots at SWA and none will make $100K this year (their words).

It's pretty easy to make 100K 2nd year.

2nd year pay is 77.45 per trip.

77.45 X 108 trips = 8365

8365 X 12 = 100,380

Averge line is around 95 trips.

With proper bidding you can get 110 trips on your vacation months.

EPT and recurrent training can also become high paying months.

Pick up one trip a month and you get your 100K

 

[ivauir]

I hope our ground breaking new contract shows what valued 'internal customers" the pilots at SWA are. But a "B" plan hasn't even come up. Hope for a better match, Pay and work rules. Hope.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Hose what are you smoking? $100K for second year SWA pilot? I've got 5 guys in my squadron that are all 2-3 year pilots at SWA and none will make $100K this year (their words).

I went to college Babylon, but I havent smoked since. 100k is avg for second year. Not much variance. Probably 95 to 108.

 

[atafan]

May I interrupt the "Mine is Bigger than Yours" talk?

I've been told that SCOPE is your number one item being negotiated. Is this true or even close to being true?

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

Yes, scope and codeshare are the biggest concerns.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

May I interrupt the "Mine is Bigger than Yours" talk?

I've been told that SCOPE is your number one item being negotiated. Is this true or even close to being true?

Its the number one issue. I had an idea that we take stock options in lieu of all other compensation but no one would listen.

And I really dont think the SWA guys are saying theirs is bigger (401k/PS), just that it has worked well. Sure not having to save any of your own money is better. We could probably negotiate that, but it would cost us elsewhere.

And once again. If you guys with a "full company funded retirement" arent saving at least the amount we are required to on your own, your fool enough to lose it all somehow anyway.

 

[hoover]

You guys are just like school children on the playground. "My airline is better than your airline" "No it's not" "Yeah it is" etc etc etc.

The thing that strikes me is that, unlike every other passenger carrier out there, SWA is doing it right. They charge a reasonable fare for their services, and apparently they can make money at, all the while paying their people market competitive wages. And, unlike every other airline I have seen, SWA is actually proud of who they are and what they do. Contrast that with the United's and Americans of the world who walk around being Captain Grumpy all the time. Maybe if they tried a little positive attitude, instead of "Screw the company," things would get better for them.

I'm flying SWA at Chrismas time. $1000 bucks for two round trip tickets MDW to SEA. Now that's value.

 

[atafan]

I didn't mean to be so sarcastic about the size thing. I was emphasizing the importance of SCOPE during these crazy days.

I am confident that SWA is going to launch in the direction of multiple code share partners, at least internationally for now, and this may be something I would be focused on if I were a SWA pilot. I'm not sure if SWAPA is talking to ATA ALPA regarding this. We have our own can of worms that we are working with regarding the GAL deal.

I keep hearing that SWA will have major announcements starting on the 7th of Nov.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

I didn't mean to be so sarcastic about the size thing. I was emphasizing the importance of SCOPE during these crazy days.

I am confident that SWA is going to launch in the direction of multiple code share partners, at least internationally for now, and this may be something I would be focused on if I were a SWA pilot. I'm not sure if SWAPA is talking to ATA ALPA regarding this. We have our own can of worms that we are working with regarding the GAL deal.

I keep hearing that SWA will have major announcements starting on the 7th of Nov.

SCOPE is SWAPAs main concern in negotiations. Since we have never had a regional feeder or, until now, codeshare, it has always been sort of an abstract "what if" sort of thing.

Now that codeshare seems to be in the plans while we are "slowing deliveries", it has everyones attention.

Reguarding the "announcement" there has been one on the horizon for the entire 4 yrs i have been here.

 

[Lipper95]

who cares about our 401k, profit sharing, or any other pay issues for swa pilots if you do not work here. besides, the social security system is so great that no one needs to save or have any company retirement to live the dream after retirement!

 

[PCL_128]

who cares about our 401k, profit sharing, or any other pay issues for swa pilots if you do not work here.

SWA does not exist in a vacuum. What you guys negotiate will affect everyone else in the industry. We're concerned about what you get in your next contract, just as you should be concerned about what we get.

 

[Saluki Dawg]

I'd like a B-plan, but I only get one vote.

 

[canyonblue]

SWA does not exist in a vacuum. What you guys negotiate will affect everyone else in the industry. We're concerned about what you get in your next contract, just as you should be concerned about what we get.

You're wrong. Part of Southwest's history in negotiations has been that we are unlike any other airline out there, so we cannot be compared to, or equated to, anyone else. Worked out for many in the good times, and worked for many in the bad times. The company has maintained this approach, so when concessions hit other airlines, they were not in any position to even remotely think of going down that path.