Skywest Pilots - ALPA Really Does Care About Small Carriers

[thebest]

Why would anyone want alpo? They just make pilots pi$$ and moan and threaten to strike? Then they allow the airlines to take your pay and pension???? Later, they tell you how much money they gave to something that did nothing????????????????? Go alpa?

 

[DoinTime]

They just make pilots pi$$ and moan and threaten to strike?

Show me a non-Union pilot group that can threaten to do anything (other than cower behind a rock while their mgmnt shoves a hot rod up their åss).

 

[yellowfever]

Why would anyone want alpo? They just make pilots pi$$ and moan and threaten to strike? Then they allow the airlines to take your pay and pension???? Later, they tell you how much money they gave to something that did nothing????????????????? Go alpa?

you may be the least intelligent person to ever post on FI.

 

[DX Rick]

Why do you guys have to get on here and post how great ALPA is? Is it to reassure yourself about your Union?
I'm not saying ALPA is good or bad, but just wondering why some of you guys have to come on here and preach to each other how great ALPA is.
When people know they have it good, and fully confident in something, they don't go around bragging and talking it up even more.

 

[cynic]

Yeah.... without ALPA pilots would make less than minimum wage working with almost no days off.

Oh wait... ummm.... yeah.....

The very simple reality is that ALPA has no power at all. Wages are low everywhere. The work rules stink. None of this is news. If you are working at a regional then you took a job knowing the pay was low, the work rules stink and the industry is unstable at best.

Sometimes it seems like you guys just complain that you work in an unstable industry where the pay is low and the work rules stink.

 

[PCL_128]

If you had 1000 pilots over the last 5 years each making only $25,000 the group would have earned a total of $125 million.

If you're going to try to refute basic facts about how ALPA is funded, then at least try to get your figures right. Five years ago, Pinnacle only had 500 pilots, about 450 of which were dues paying members. Even now, Pinnacle still has slightly less than 1000 dues paying members, if I remember correctly. Remember, probie members don't pay dues.

DoinTime's numbers of $850,000 in dues revenue is about right, but remember that that is total revenue, not so-called "profit." The PCL MEC runs an extremely tight budget (too tight in my opinion, especially when compared to similar carriers such as ExpressJet). Due to their excessive fiscal responsibility, the PCL MEC is able to cover their normal yearly budget with the dues revenue that they bring in. Of course, this doesn't account for any of the other services that Herndon provides. That only includes the things done at the MEC level. Also, that doesn't include the $2 million MCF grant that will go towards negotiations and strike prep. When you add that in, ALPA pays far more to represent PCL than the PCL pilot group could ever pay back in dues. At other regionals such as ASA and ExpressJet, where the MECs aren't such tightwads with their spending, even their normal yearly budget exceeds what their pilots contribute in dues revenue. When you add in MCF grants, the deficit is in the millions that ALPA spends on these regional carriers.

There has been a lot of talk that regionals are a money loser for ALPA. I personally believe that is a matter of how you look at the numbers. ALPA has a lot of fixed costs, meaning that no matter how many pilots they have paying dues the costs are the same. For example, ALPA does a lot of good work lobbying congress. This lobby will cost ALPA $X no matter how many pilots they are representing. The ALPA president makes $Y no matter how many pilots they are representing. There are many more costs that work this way.

None of these costs are being taken into account when we say that the regionals cost ALPA more than they pay in. We're just talking normal yearly budgets and MCF grants. All of the lobbying, aeromedical, legal assitance, National Officer salaries, etc... are completely separate.

The fact of the matter is; IF SKYWEST VOTES IN ALPA, THEN ALPA MAKES MORE MONEY.

No, it really doesn't. ExpressJet is the best example to compare SkyWest to, since the pilot groups are similar in size and the incomes are similar. The ExpressJet MEC spends much more money every year (just on their own budget, not including all of the things at National that you talked about earlier) than their own pilots contribute via dues revenue. Sorry, but there is just no money in it for ALPA to represent SkyWest pilots. It is a net loss to ALPA. The benefits to ALPA come from greater unity, enhanced pattern bargaining, etc... There is no fiscal advantage to ALPA in representing you.

 

[120% Torque]

First off let me say that I can see the benefits of ALPA. I wont be voting for them, but it will not ruin my day WHEN THEY ARE VOTED IN.
Second, You are so drunk with Kool-aid that you can't think straight. here is a quote from my post. My numbers were assuming that each pilot made only $25,000 each over a 5 year period. These numbers are way low but show that they still paid in $250,000 more than they were given for this one issue. If you read the second part of my earlier post I said, "I also understand that ALPA has spent more money to help Pinnacle pilots than that $2 million."
If the Pinnacle pilot group made on average $50,000 then they have already paid in $2.5 million more than the $2 million.
The original poster DID NOT UNDERSTAND ECONOMIES OF SCALE and believed that the $2 million was more than they had paid in. I am simply pointing out that Pinnacle has paid in much more than the $2 million and that ALPA does make money of regional airlines. There is nothing wrong with making money, they offer a lot of great survices, but I find it funny all the Kool-aid drinkers running around saying that ALPA is losing money on them.

I tend to agree with what some of the others have said above especially those who work for those airlines and know the exact amounts and aren't drawing theoretics like you to try to make an anti-alpa/anti-union push. Regionals are not a "money making business" as you and the managers of skywest (a good chance you are one and the same) have stated in relation to Alpa. It is about pattern bargaining and trying to give some sanity to the work rules and maintain/improve on what has taken years to achieve. Here are some quotes from Alpa regarding their overall mission and history. I see these lessons and points as valid. Without Alpa wages and work rules would be horrendously worse today regardless of 911.

So what were those guiding principles and strategies our founding fathers gave us that have served us so well?

The first and most important core principle was to create ONE trade union for ALL airline pilots. They consciously and deliberately rejected any notion of a loose collection of company or "in-house" unions as being totally at odds and in conflict with their mission statement.

That mission statement was and remains to take pilot pay, working conditions and safety completely out of the airline competitive equation.

They also rejected the notion of elitism. All airline pilots were welcome regardless of the size of their airline. Why? Because they knew with absolute clairvoyance that small airlines with cheap pilots would quickly grow into big airlines with cheap pilots, and no pilot would ever be safe unless all were protected.

As you know, on top of this core principle of ONE union for ALL pilots, they overlaid a core strategy that would make them impervious to changes in technology. This was pure genius.

To ensure that changes in technology that produced aircraft that were larger, faster and had greater range worked to the benefit of pilots as well as to the airlines, they constructed a pay formula strategy that made pilots the beneficiaries of changes that increased a pilot’s relative economic productivity. More passengers or cargo (it is no coincedence that Skywest, one of the only non-union airlines was one of the only airlines to ever bring larger and higher revenue generating airplanes down to the lowest payscale...see post referrencing flying 99 seat jets for 50 seat pay. Also before someone prepares a rebuttle for this that Delta and Fedex do this as well they DID not bring down but rather up toward the higher paying of for example 757/767), flying faster and farther would produce more revenue not only for the airline but also the pilots (shared success). Sounds simple, but it was the key strategy that separates airline pilots from other hourly workers and it was desperately hard to implement. They had no chance of winning this one on their own – they would need governmental help – they would need the president of the United States.

Yes, our founding fathers were political pragmatists. They understood that to enact their core principle of ONE union for ALL pilots – to implement their core strategy of pattern bargaining based on leveraging productivity, incidentally for the first time in history to the benefit of workers, they would have to align themselves with the political friends and advocates of organized labor. They did so with gusto and their early success was nothing short of astounding.
With Franklin Roosevelt as an ally, they actually got an exemption for airline pilots from the National Recovery Administration's wage controls during the Great Depression. They quickly followed up by winning a stunning victory from the National Labor Board that gave them "Decision 83" which scrapped the old pilot pay system and instituted ALPA's productivity model. This was probably our most important compensation win ever.

Very interesting, but what does all that have to do with me? After all, I am not from the "greatest" generation, I’m from the "me" generation. I'm cool – I've got cell phones, I've got computers, I get new software twice a week, I'm wired, I'm on-line, I've got e-mail. I have my own web page! I work in a new economy. Ever heard of deregulation, Mr. President? Everything's new, everything is different now."
WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! Nothing is different now!

Is pilot pushing different now?
Is working 20-hour days different now?
Is being away from your home and family 2/3 of your life different now?
Is Schedule with Safety less important now"
Is working for a company that thinks of you only as a replaceable unit cost, different now?
Is the basic struggle between the rights of capital vs. the rights of labor, different now?

Let's do a little visualization exercise right now. Visualize a graph where we plot out the success of airline pilots over the last seventy years using the three critical parameters:

1. The percentage of pilots represented by ALPA, or in other words ALPA's market share.
2. How closely we adhered to our key negotiating strategy of lashing ourselves to our increased productivity and riding the technological wave.
3. If we had friends or foes in political control of our governments.

If we plot our success and failure against these three parameters, the results are clear, unmistakable and irrefutable. Let's plot the first parameter: -- ALPA's market share. When ALPA's market share drops -- pilots lose.

When ALPA loses market share – pilots lose! Average pilot pay, benefits and job security decline.

When we had friends in the White House, pilots won – when we had enemies, pilots lost badly. (another great function of Alpa, standing up for our rights in Washington)

Visualize our graph of seventy years of defeat and success. Visualize your future and where you and your family want to be in twenty years. Now visualize a union; -- this union on the march to achieve your goals; because that's exactly what we are doing!
This is a union that is returning to its roots, its core principle! Its core negotiating strategy. A union that is politically engaged at the highest level – the pilots union, -- ALPA is on the move today.

Skywest pilots can either choose to be a part of the problem or a part of the solution. They can take better control of their careers and stop the backsliding or they can watch more of the same come from a now arrogant managment who talks out of both sides of their mouth. Choose wisely.

 

[120% Torque]

I'll tie what is said above into a humourous yet sadly familiar scenario pushed by management every day, that I posted on another thread.

There was an island in the caribbean, St. Tropic. , It had one direct flight from Miami, served by a big airline, Giant Airlines on their B-700. That big airline contracted out feeder flights to three different operators, who flew Cessna 172’s from St. Tropic to other small islands. Operator A flew to island 1, Operator B flew to island 2, and Operator C flew to island 3. Each feeder airline had one plane and one round trip route. Each Cessna had two pilots, a captain and a safety pilot. All of the pilots were paid decent, and when they got enough captain experience, they could apply for Giant Airlines. Each airline kept to itself and provided a good job for their pilots.

The island was small, and had few pilots. Being a pilot was a worthy career aspiration, but it took time, hard work and skill. But it paid well, and was worth it.

One day, the owner of Operator A, wanting revenue growth, told his pilots that if they took a pay cut of $2 an hour, they might be able to take the flying from operator B, and add a new plane to the fleet to fly that route. This new plane would have a full autopilot, a GPS, shiny new instruments and a sweet paint job. This would also require hiring 2 more pilots, and upgrading the current safety pilot to captain of the new plane. The pilots said sure, seeing that there would be more movement and a new plane.

Well, Operator A got the contract for operator B’s flying due to being cheaper, and put those pilots out of jobs (They ended up getting hired by operator A at first year safety pilot pay).

Now Operator C, seeing that they were probably next to lose their route to Operator A, went to their 2 pilots and asked for a $4 pay cut in order to keep their route and even take over the more routes. This also had the added benefits of quicker upgrades and shiny new planes. The pilots voted yes. Sure enough, Operator C took over the route Operator A had previously stolen from Operator B. The only problem was that Operator C couldn’t find any qualified pilots to fly for their low pay rates. So, they started a flight school, where young kids on the island would pay to learn how to fly, and then in a short period of time would get a job with their airline. It was easy recruiting these kids, after all, flying was so much fun. Plus, with all the new advanced avionics, it was so easy to fly.

Operator A continued the trend, by cutting their pay in the name of growth to further undercut Operator C. They also started their own flight school to find pilots willing to fly for cheap.

The big airline loved this, after all, they were struggling enough to turn a profit and this just gave them cheaper feed.

Yes, pay was going down fast for feeder pilots on the island, but it was all in the name of getting experience and moving on to the big airlines. In fact, the lowest cost feeder airline at the time, due to expansion and labor cost cuts, had enough money to purchase larger planes, large enough planes to replace the B-700 Giant Airlines was flying to the island. They were called E-700’s. The pilots and the planes were cheaper than the B-700 cost per seat mile. So for a small pay raise, these feeder pilots could fly big, shiny, cool planes. Giant Airlines loved this, as they could get rid of some of their high paid pilots and planes and used these feeder airlines to do some their previous flying.

Well, in the world of the big airlines, their fleets were shrinking, the feeder airlines were growing like crazy. The only big airlines that were doing well and hiring were those who had made drastic cost cuts, particularly to labor costs. One such airline was Cheap Air, they paid $10 less per hour than the other giant airlines, but they were expanding and had nice shiny big jets.

Back in the land of the feeder airlines, all that the pilots could dream about was flying for Cheap Air someday......

STOP THE INSANITY!!!

 

[SkyNation]

120%,

what would your reaction be if the drive to unionize at SkyWest were to fail? I don't think there is any argument that the OC has done a great job of getting their message out and communicating with the pilot group.

 

[120% Torque]

120%,

what would your reaction be if the drive to unionize at SkyWest were to fail? I don't think there is any argument that the OC has done a great job of getting their message out and communicating with the pilot group.

Sapa has had chances for many years to change. They have made promises just like management to "do alot better next time if we only just give them one more chance" time after time after time. I'm hearing the same things from Bill Schlueter (B.S.) already as I have heard from Abel, Alden, Livingston and many other insiders. It always turns out being empty promises the second change and the chances for pilot empowerment have faded away following a union drive for example. To answer your question though IF Sapa is the organization left still standing then I will push to have all the bad rats flushed out, rally the troops to put some good honest folks in, then CERTIFY the sucker! Keep in mind, management and the corrupt good ol boys have resisted this in the past to protect themselves from ACCOUNTABILITY and TRANSPARENCY. I still think Sapa is a lame duck no matter how you slice it but good men will always continue to fight the good fight.

 

[120% Torque]

120%,

what would your reaction be if the drive to unionize at SkyWest were to fail? I don't think there is any argument that the OC has done a great job of getting their message out and communicating with the pilot group.

What will you do if Alpa is voted in?

 

[Lazy8]

Why do you guys have to get on here and post how great ALPA is? Is it to reassure yourself about your Union?
I'm not saying ALPA is good or bad, but just wondering why some of you guys have to come on here and preach to each other how great ALPA is.
When people know they have it good, and fully confident in something, they don't go around bragging and talking it up even more.

I just re-read this thread and am a bit confused. Who's bragging? The only posts I see in this thread regarding pro-ALPA were informative replies to ignorant anti-ALPA comments. It is possible to dislike ALPA and still post like an adult, but that's just something you don't see too often here.

 

[SkyNation]

What will you do if Alpa is voted in?

I'd volunteer for a committee, hope for the best but plan for the worst.

what I was getting at was if it's not voted in, would you concede that the message the OC delivered was not compelling enough to this pilot group to vote for it?

also, just because I'm not an ALPA guy doesn't mean that I support SAPA by default. I agree that if it remains, it could use an overhaul of top personnel.

 

[120% Torque]

what I was getting at was if it's not voted in, would you concede that the message the OC delivered was not compelling enough to this pilot group to vote for it?

Absolutely not. The fact is if this union vote is successful it will have overcome an incredibly uneven playing field. Sapa/management go into almost all new hire classes with an innacurate "feel good" speech on sapa and the great relationship management has with the pilots. Basically selling goodwill that no longer exists. This, followed by "your going to hear alot of differing opinions from those you fly with but let me just tell you a few (spun) facts on pilot unions. Look at Mesa...blah blah blah." You are talking about thousands of pilots who have had this speech at a time when they just want to get through training and "stay below the radar". It leaves a lasting impression for most to just not rock the boat and take what you are given including the ability to fly a CRJ "Heavy" with a smile. This dutiful stance stays with the average pilot anywhere from one to four years unless you receive further "training information" in your check airman class or management/sapa function. Of course by this time, when counting attrition including many Alpa proponents who decided to punch out, there are hundreds or more new guys drinking from the company fountains (yeah they found its cheaper to install koolaid fountains rather than mix it up separately) in new hire training.

Alpa has not and does not have the opportunity to champion what they have to offer, nor counter what is being spoken against them in these class rooms. It is a one sided arguement presented by one side only. I know there are people that come from other union airlines, usually those at the low end of the spectrum (think Mesa, Great Lakes), and they nod up and down as Jerry and Co sells the skywest religion. These also are the guys who (assuming no further "company directed info session" or personal advancement at stake (ie sapa, CP, etc) who take four years to decide managment wasn't very honest during that little speech in new hire class. Ive seen this play out many times over.

Management also has skywestonline email to get their propaganda errrr information out on what recently is a daily basis. Alpa does not have this powerful venue to reach the masses.

Managment hires the best union busting firm in the business to assess where to hit. Alpa also has some good ideas but does more of a broad campaign on its benefits, once again at a big dissadvantage due to lack of venues to get information out.

Management has Sapa. Yes Sapa really goes to batt for the regular line pilot during these union drives, solving long overdue PIC's (one as long as 18 months recently), making daily phone calls for pilots regarding scheduling snafus and the like . Basically doing what they didn't do for several years prior but it can create an infectious, feel good atmosphere for those willing to hide their eyes from what it is, a temporary panacea to appease the masses on something that does not normaly work this way. Sapa (think Livingston, Black, Spencer, even Archibald) will quote from the company pull down tab on skywestonline of anti-union rhetoric stacked to make once again a one sided case. Furthermore, Livingston will use semantics to try to confuse with all sorts of far reaching miniscule points that at the end of the day have little to do with the original topic at hand. Also when he gets cornerd, just like Ben Matlock he tries to switch directions by "examining the witness". Most of what he says is nonsense but it does "take" with some of the more naive, less sophisticated audience.

Management has the aforementioned company message board where they paste their union free half truths right where thousands of employees check in for work everyday. Alpa does not. Then there are the managment moderated skywestforum message boards and the iShare forums where "troublesome" posts are often times deleted or carefully "channelled" to where most of what is posted is from management butt kissers trying to prove their committment on a public forum.

In summation, the cards are stacked against alpa. The only way alpa will be voted in is if pilots do their own research looking at reality for what it and dimm the lights on the "facts" the company keeps trying to sell them even though it doesn't seem to add up. Hope that answers your question.

 

[SkyNation]

Hope that answers your question.

it does, though I disagree. Mngmnt/SAPA is not winning 'hearts and minds' in their little visits to new hire classes. That is maybe 5 or 6 minutes, if at all, that newbies are exposed to them. I believe that if they become fans of our way of doing things here, that comes after the time they spend online. It is then that they can compare us to where they came from-of course tons of Mesa, but also AWAC, TSA, ASA, Comair-you name it. It has been very disconcerting to hear so many swiftly disregard those of us who've come from ALPA regionals by saying that 'we just don't see the big picture' or that 'we just care about a quick upgrade' or whatever lame excuse du jour is being used.

As for SWOL, I get way more messages there from members of the OC than I do from the company about unionizing. All of their messages direct me to skywestalpa.org, where I can get all other questions addressed. I give the OC much more credit in their dissemination of info vs. that of the company's. Not to mention all of the OCs lunches, fliers, leaflets, pens, lanyards, stickers, etc. that have been ubiquitous in crew lounges, locker rooms, airplanes, etc. The company message boards I never read, nor am I compelled to when I check in for work. Look at my eTrip, print it out, read pertinent mail, that's it. Even sapaforums is dominated with the OC and their message. (which reminds me, why don't you post all your thread there? isn't that the audience you're hoping to convince?) There is no 'lack of venues' to get their information out.

I don't see ALPA at any disadvantage at all in their desire to communicate with the pilots here.

I'm sure you (and others) will disagree. However, don't you think that what it comes down to is very simple: if the pilots at SkyWest wanted a union, they would have voted one in long before now. The case seems to be that they don't want one.