2300 signatures and counting!

[luckytohaveajob]

http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/new...78817.html?cm_ven=YAHOO&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA

 

[Green]

2300 whiners with zero integrity. You should all be proud...

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Yeah, ok.... I'm having a little trouble believing 2300.
Reporter: "So, you're trying to decertify ALPA?"
USAPA Prez Guy: "Yeah, we're collecting cards. It gonna be really neato."
Reporter: "Really, how many do you have?"
USAPA Prez Guy: (rubs neck, scratches head considers what number will be useful to his cause) "We've got, approximately, 2300."

I'll wait for the count by the NMB, and the eventual Federal Judge. Oh, and if it fails the eventual whining by USAPA about tampering and obstructionist tactics by the company, ALPA and General Lee.

USAir East, you guys are a new kind of lame... I will now call you multifaceted lamosus that's right: "MFL's."

 

[PCL_128]

Congratulations! You've got 2300 short-sighted morons who don't even realize that dumping ALPA will still not invalidate the arbitrator's ruling. You should be very proud.

 

[FlyByNight1]

WOW! I dont work over there, and Im pretty new to the game, but it sure seems like US Airways is always the ginny pig when comes to these things. I feel bad for you folks caught up in this stuff.

 

[LJDRVR]

2300 whiners with zero integrity. You should all be proud...

How's about when you have spent over two decades working for an ALPA carrier, only to see your retirement stolen and no chance of ever upgrading to the left seat, while youngsters who were in kindergarten when your career started, hired scant years ago by some regional airline that happens to fly Boeing and Airbus products, are now senior to you; then you can go around calling people names.

Whiners? Are you for real?

 

[LJDRVR]

Congratulations! You've got 2300 short-sighted morons who don't even realize that dumping ALPA will still not invalidate the arbitrator's ruling. You should be very proud.

I suspect you would feel a little less smug and clever were you wearing their shoes. Sit down with an Airways East guy or gal sometime and ask them about their career. You'll be singing a different tune.

PS-Are you one of those guys who goes around calling his fellow pilots short-sighted morons but also complains vehemetly at the slightest suggestion of Legacy pilot snobery directed towards Air Tran? respect

 

[IdRtherBsailing]

So "Career expectations" or "Date of Hire"? I have no idea. I think people are gonna get screwed either way.

 

[PCL_128]

I suspect you would feel a little less smug and clever were you wearing their shoes. Sit down with an Airways East guy or gal sometime and ask them about their career. You'll be singing a different tune.

I sat down and talked with dozens of Airways pilots in LGA when I was working on the Colgan drive for ALPA National. I sympathize with you guys, and I do think you got screwed on the arbitration award, but that doesn't justify the actions that some are taking with the decert drive. It will do no good to nullify the award, but it will do much harm to the Association, the profession, and even your own pilot group.

PS-Are you one of those guys who goes around calling his fellow pilots short-sighted morons but also complains vehemetly at the slightest suggestion of Legacy pilot snobery directed towards Air Tran? respect

Not exactly sure what you're getting at or how that applies to the current discussion. To answer your question, though, I understand when Legacy pilots complain about how the LCCs have dragged down the profession in the past. I hope that all of us at AirTran will vote down our current TA and raise the bar in the future.

 

[PositiveRate]

This will be another 5 page thread of the same fight.

LJDVR and the likes will never accept the age and los differentials in the nicolau list.

They conveniently ignore that 18 yrs = bottom of list in the pre merger world, while 18 yrs at AWA = senior captain. This IS the way it was and is the basis for EXPECTATIONS. Now things are trending up, they are trying to re-write this reality.

It is what it is (Nic still stands with either union) and it was what is was (pre-merger realities) - The new reality is more fighting and bs rhetoric from all involved...we are not on a path to solutions at the moment.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

How's about when you have spent over two decades working for an ALPA carrier, only to see your retirement stolen and no chance of ever upgrading to the left seat, while youngsters who were in kindergarten when your career started, hired scant years ago by some regional airline that happens to fly Boeing and Airbus products, are now senior to you; then you can go around calling people names.

Whiners? Are you for real?

Well, maybe because WE BOUGHT YOU. Yeah, right after the time AWA covered your payroll but just before you were going to LIQUIDATE.

Oh and by the way, YOUR OWN MEC and JNC gave all that stuff back to management DURING YOUR TWO TRIPS INTO BANKRUPTCY. Of course your stellar airline was profitable... oh, not since '98, sorry. It only became profiatable after the merger, my bad.

ALPA IS NOT THE CAUSE OF YOUR PROBLEMS. YOUR MEC IS THE CAUSE OF YOUR PROBLEMS. They lie to you, they keep things from you.

If the award was so unfair, why did both pilot neutrals go along with it? Have you seen Nicolau's qualifications? I think he's got a better handle on things than USAPA or the East MEC.

As the Airbus says: "retard... retard... retard...."

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Positive rate hit the nail on the head. Your 18 year guy was bottom of the list at Airways. So why should he be above someone who was in near the beginning of AWA. That's friggin arrogance.

Your age means you went to a major, a while back, that's true; but you picked the wrong major that is also true. Basically, you may have gotten to the dance earlier boys, but your date was a fat and ugly chick from Appalachia....

I'm sorry, like I've said before, your career didn't turn out the way you thought and neither did mine; but too bad. It's time to move on. Lets fix the airline and the contract before this next opportunity passes you by.

 

[LJDRVR]

Wow, spirited debate!

I was just taking several folks to task for their wide paint brush attack of the Airways East folks.

Where were you AWA folks earlier in this thread when people were name-calling and questioning the integrity of YOUR pilots? Oh that's right, you were joining in.

All I'm saying is that if you were in their shoes, you'd be pretty upset too. How about some empathy?

 

[PositiveRate]

You had our empathy. That's mostly gone now after how we've been treated. It goes both ways and the attempt to rewrite where both companies were is lower than low.

Another reality is AWA has walked the so-called "high road" and played by the rules. The East has done everything in their power to bend the rules to align with their agendas and take full advantage of the NEW REALITY.

It's pretty shamful. We'll see how it plays out, but the empathy is gone - sorry.

 

[LJDRVR]

You had our empathy. That's mostly gone now after how we've been treated. It goes both ways and the attempt to rewrite where both companies were is lower than low.

Another reality is AWA has walked the so-called "high road" and played by the rules. The East has done everything in their power to bend the rules to align with their agendas and take full advantage of the NEW REALITY.

It's pretty shamful. We'll see how it plays out, but the empathy is gone - sorry.

Fair enough, although my guess still is if you were in their shoes you'd be just as pissed.

PS-You're assuming I fly for US Air.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

I empathized as well. I was friendly. I was hopeful we could make this thing work. Clearly, the East thinks they are right because they yell the loudest.

Are you aware because of the East obstructionist tactics the company has filed another dispute about the TA against ALPA?

Think about it. East delays are now hurting the operation enough that the company is seeking legal help. THE COMPANY WANTS TO NEGOTIATE A NEW CONTRACT. The east doesn't wany any of that becuase of the Nic award.

So now ALPA has to defend against this.

I hope all you other ALPA members have paid your dues because your pissy little bros from PHL are gonna get ALPA sued.

 

[PA-22]

How's about when you have spent over two decades working for an ALPA carrier, only to see your retirement stolen and no chance of ever upgrading to the left seat, while youngsters who were in kindergarten when your career started, hired scant years ago by some regional airline that happens to fly Boeing and Airbus products, are now senior to you; then you can go around calling people names.

Whiners? Are you for real?

So ALPA was responsible for TWO bankruptcies that led to concessions including pensions?
Stop lying to yourself, you want to decertify ALPA only, and ONLY because you think THAT might make the Nicolau BINDING (ouch) arbitration go away.
That is the definition of whiners, you just didn't get what you wanted.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

ALPA IS NOT THE CAUSE OF YOUR PROBLEMS. YOUR MEC IS THE CAUSE OF YOUR PROBLEMS. They lie to you, they keep things from you.

The problem is ALPA hasn't learned the lesson of overriding the will of the majority. IE. AGE 60!!!

ALPA thinks they know best regardless of the survey results, the polls, the voting, etc.

Ask any former TWA pilot.

ALPA is faithfully flawed. ALPA politicians have forgotten who they represent.

The East needs to complete the decert. project and remind ALPA and every MEC and LEC rep. what the purpose of the union is at each particular company.

ALPA has lost its way. The East is going to help ALPA find the door and regain its focus or this is going to repeat again at UAL, NWA, FedEx, etc.

 

[LJDRVR]

So ALPA was responsible for TWO bankruptcies that led to concessions including pensions?
Stop lying to yourself, you want to decertify ALPA only, and ONLY because you think THAT might make the Nicolau BINDING (ouch) arbitration go away.
That is the definition of whiners, you just didn't get what you wanted.

Show me where I suggested any such thing. I was simply pointing out that the Airways East folks have a little more room for bitching than you do, and that the caustic tone directed at them on this thread was severely one-sided and harsh.

My guess (I work elswhere, Mr. reading comprehension) is they are simply pissed at the total and complete lack of representation they have recieved from ALPA the last several years.

I'll say it again, you'd be just as pissed and involved in the same activities if you were one of them.

 

[LJDRVR]

I hope all you other ALPA members have paid your dues because your pissy little bros from PHL are gonna get ALPA sued.

That's right Grog, it's all their fault. What would you do in their shoes? Honestly. I'm fortunate to not have to worry about it, but if I were, say a 1982 hire based in PHL or CLT, I's be so pissed off I couldn't see straight. Having lost everything, my guess is I'd be willing to try anything to effect any change.

So, what would you do? Sit around and take it like a man, after a lifetime of paying dues?

 

[sgmick]

I can hardly wait until the next merger involving USAIR. The west guys will cry bloody murder when they get the same treatment that the East got.

"But, I have 5 years with USAIR! How can I be below one of your new hires?! This is complete B*ll********************!" LOL

Time is ticking.... Its going to be a doozey

 

[OnTheDole]

That's right Grog, it's all their fault. What would you do in their shoes? Honestly. I'm fortunate to not have to worry about it, but if I were, say a 1982 hire based in PHL or CLT, I's be so pissed off I couldn't see straight. Having lost everything, my guess is I'd be willing to try anything to effect any change.

So, what would you do? Sit around and take it like a man, after a lifetime of paying dues?

They haven't lost "everything"... they still have a well paying job, which was far from certain before this mess was announced. What they have lost is due to piss poor mgmt. year after year. I can empathize with the east for all they've been through, but now they want payback - and they're attempting to get it from the awa pilots.

East wants movement from their attrition when the fact is their attrition only helped them remain employed through the downsizing, it hadn't provided them upward movement for several years. At the same time west guys had seen slow and steady upward movement for the last several years that has turned into stagnation since the merger announcment. Some "windfall"!

In one of the latest examples of spin the East MEC put forward on how the West FOs where going to steal their upgrades they talked about a junior AWA FO that will upgarde with 12 yrs in becasue of the NIC award where he wouldn't have upgraded until 22 years in without it. That sounds like a total windfall until you realize the average AWA upgrade was 7 years and had been for a very long time, now that same FO has to wait 5 more years WITH the NIC award to upgrade - some "windfall"!

I don't know why I waste my time pissing into the wind with these "gods of aviation" -
Now that I think about it... I used to emapthize with them but now I just have no respect for them.

 

[CaptSeth]

Baby.....Bathwater.....

 

[ultrarunner]

The longer the East folks delay the inevitable, they longer they will live with their current $hitty work rules.

Think about that!

 

[Crzipilot]

Must suck to have a lottery ticket your not able to cash in.....hmmmm.....

 

[A350]

What cracks me up is the arrogance of the ALPA lovers who have the audacity to think the Nicolau award is the only reason that the East pilots are going to decertify ALPA.....

The award, and its consequences, were the straw that broke the camel's back. Prater coming to CLT and telling them that the arbitrator can do anything he wants and doesn't have to apply ALPA's nebulous merger policy? Are you @#$@#ing kidding? No ALPA group would ever agree to arbitration if they figured the arbitrator could do whatever he wanted without addressing ALPA's merger policy. Disingenuineous at best, an outright fabrication at its worst.

I signed my card.

PCL: Your career has been nothing but paying for your job and a wild ride up the ladder.....to say the USAir East guys are morons when you have had to endure nothing that they have had to removes all doubt who the moron is. Further proof is the fact that you would follow ALPA into outer space without even a thought of the consequences.

A350

 

[MK82Man]

Are you a professional, or just like one of the thousands of American’s who always blame their problems on someone else? A professional plays by the rules, because the rules govern the game. Get the best legal help you can to ensure you understand the rules and then be a professional and play ball. Or I guess you can just say you aren’t responsible for your own conduct and your own problems and your neighbor or relative or some other “unknown” fellow American is.

We at AWA are professionals and we played by the rules. We engaged with the East for a two year ordeal. Informal Talks, Federal Mediation, Federal Arbitration. ALPA has stated there is no instance of the process not being followed. When the East lost in Arbitration – they got pissed and want to re-write the verdict. Every ALPA pilot who talks about “brotherly love” “his union sister” “the fellowship of being an aviator” should be outraged at the way the East is conducting this. There is no “fairness” in this, only an “I’m gonna get what is owed to me at all costs” methodology – sounds like thug tactics doesn’t it? Nobody at AWA weeps for the East guys because we never made $200+ an hour like they did. Their MEC and their union reps, in conjunction with their management made the history of US Air. 2 bankruptcies and an 18 year guy at the bottom of the list is not AWA’s fault – it belongs squarely in Philadelphia and with every pilot who was there. Each of us is responsible for the success or failure of our union representatives. If you don’t like your job, have plan B, and when your job goes south, move on to something else. If you are an Adult and have kids, I hope you are teaching that – all of us need Plan B for a Rainy Day. So the East’s mess is not the West’s fault and we are just tired of hearing it – it is a broken record in PHX and LAS. The West has stopped hiring, stopped upgrading (50 dudes through June 08), and suffered backwards movement as we shore up the East operation. Our 737s are going away. We are plowing money into PHL like ship through a goose.

For every other ALPA member you will bear the cost of the East’s hanky-panky. They are suing the West MEC and ALPA – every ALPA member’s dues will go to defend the costs. Expect your insurance premiums to go up. Expect there to be less money if a hurricane hits and you need help from ALPA’s disaster fund. We at AWA are just those un-experienced youngsters that pride themselves on following the rules and maintaining a professional response. We will continue to hold the high ground, not engage in “decertification” tactics, and continue bargaining with management in an effort to improve the contracts of both East and West pilots. The sooner the East gets on board, the quicker the entire process will move forward for all ALPA pilots. Most of us just vote to let the East guys continue to go under (I say give ‘em more rope) and then we’ll pick up whatever is left over and move on with it. We want to build a new US Airways and they want to breathe air into a long dead US Air and keep the corpse alive. We will build an awesome new US Airways with or without them.

 

[Green]

All I'm saying is that if you were in their shoes, you'd be pretty upset too. How about some empathy?

You are sueing us and you want empathy???! Don't forget the fact that many east pilots have stated they will never vote in a joint contract; thus holding all our wages down at industry bottom levels. Lets not forget that the east MEC did not want to give west pilots access to your jumpseats.....and you want empathy....lol. Every step of the merger process was followed and agreed to by both parties. You guys epitomize poor sportsmanship.

 

[PositiveRate]

That post is spot on MK82man. Very well reasoned and PROFESSIONAL.

Every other ALPA group needs to realize what's going on here.
------------------------
Every ALPA pilot who talks about “brotherly love” “his union sister” “the fellowship of being an aviator” should be outraged at the way the East is conducting this. There is no “fairness” in this, only an “I’m gonna get what is owed to me at all costs” methodology – sounds like thug tactics doesn’t it?
------------------------

 

[LJDRVR]

You are sueing us and you want empathy???! Don't forget the fact that many east pilots have stated they will never vote in a joint contract; thus holding all our wages down at industry bottom levels. Lets not forget that the east MEC did not want to give west pilots access to your jumpseats.....and you want empathy....lol. Every step of the merger process was followed and agreed to by both parties. You guys epitomize poor sportsmanship.

Hey Green, read the posts a little more carefully, bro. I fly for a different legacy carrier. (My bio should be your first clue.[an airways pilot with only 7K hours?])

MK82, Nicely written intelligent post. Thank you for helping to educate me on the other side of this issue without the seventh grade name calling and lack of reading comprehension your peers have displayed.

I wish you guys the best. ALL of you.