AirTran T.A. = Vote NO

[FL717]

There is another thread on Flightinfo that is specifically addressing the con's of the "latest" TA language. I am starting this thread to encourage all AirTran Pilots to Vote.... and to VOTE NO.

I believe that the Captains at AirTran (that actually vote).... are going to split 50/50 on the vote. I believe the First Officers at AirTran are going to predominantly vote NO.

The First Officers at AirTran can control this vote.

We NEED ALL AirTran First Officers that are eligible to vote... to VOTE... and to VOTE NO..... and that will ensure a majority NO vote, and this T.A. does in fact die, and then we can press on with whatever happens next.

DO NOT be afraid of voting NO, and DO NOT give in at this point.

We have come a LONG way... and we deserve better, and we can get what we deserve. We can only get that if we INSIST on it, and one of the ways to INSIST on it is to VOTE NO.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

Scope = NO among many other things. Let the FO voices be heard.

 

[airline#5]

Please FO's, show the industry that you believe you are worth more than far below industry standard. I am all for the fair capt pay, but it will not be funded by us.

Most FO's will not be capt's until the next contract anyway. Don't fall for the capt pay carrot they dangle in front of you. All it takes is more aircraft deferrals to make upgrade out of reach for all of us. With the Milwaukee base growth out of the question, this is a likelyhood in a effort to remain a profitable airline. This place does not have the liquidity to sustain loses. Ten bucks more an hour or so for FO's will not put this place out of business. Do not be controlled by fear. This is not a place worth working at anyway at these FO rates.

I don't know about you FO's, but I do not live a lavish life in terms of my spending. All I have are the kids to pay for, and every month I dig myself further in debt as a FO here. No savings, no real investments, just trying to feed, cloth, and educate. Industry standard FO pay would at least have me breaking even.

Please, please, vote NO!!

Please vote No!

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

If AP stays in the FO rates wont go up. He has not said anything about FO pay. But not to worry becasuse we will all be CA in three years, from AP.

 

[75M]

I believe that the Captains at AirTran (that actually vote).... are going to split 50/50 on the vote.

Really?

I think its funny how we always blame management for trying to divide and conquer the pilot group, but the second we are put in a corner we start pointing arrows at eachother.

From my perspective:

No medical for newhires for an additional month = instant NO vote

Reduction in pay for newhires = instant NO vote

Different vacation rules for CAs vs. FOs = instant NO vote

It's true that there are enough FOs to control the vote and I think that will end up deciding it, but I don't think we need to assume that the captains are going to throw the FOs under the bus.

 

[Max Eaper]

SCOPE is huge ladies and gentlemen no matter what your seniority number is! Anything over fifty seats including turboprops must be flown by pilots on our seniority list. Remember, we will be living with this contract for the next 6-7 years. I'm voting no on the TA!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm voting yes on the recalls!!!!!!!!!

 

[FL717]

It's true that there are enough FOs to control the vote and I think that will end up deciding it, but I don't think we need to assume that the captains are going to throw the FOs under the bus.

Re-read my entire post. I NEVER said or implied that Captains would "throw the First Officers under the bus".

Except for that little (incorrect) assumption you leap towards.... my point was/is EXACTLY what you wrote and apparently agree with me about about "FO's deciding the vote".

Don't make divide where there isn't.... because I certainly wasn't.

 

[PRINCE AKEEM]

I'm at the bottom with nowhere to go but up. Can't wait to vote NO again! When is the vote anyway?

 

[Lear70]

I think its funny how we always blame management for trying to divide and conquer the pilot group, but the second we are put in a corner we start pointing arrows at each other.

I believe that the Captains at AirTran (that actually vote).... are going to split 50/50 on the vote. I believe the First Officers at AirTran are going to predominantly vote NO.

I *think* he meant that he believes half the CA's are going to vote Yes, half the CA's are going to vote No, thus "split 50/50". That's one thing about the internet, it's sometimes hard to determine *intent* or *tone of voice* behind a post.

You're absolutely right though, we MUST keep from further dividing this pilot group. Solidarity MUST be enhanced as we move forward, and I believe that the vast majority of us are on the same page.

There's a couple things that haven't been touched on that have occurred to me over the last couple of days. Things that will increase F/O upgrade times:

1. Not enough aircraft orders for all the F/O's. We only have enough aircraft on order for F/O's through about the 1,400 seniority range to upgrade. If you're below this number, you absolutely MUST plan on remaining an F/O for the next 4-6 years at the very least.

2. Delivery deferrals. We have been deferring aircraft and, if it happens again, count on even further delaying your upgrade time. An extra year or more as an F/O on these new rates.

3. Merger/Acquisition. It's obvious that AAI wants to purchase or merge with another carrier; we have 2 attempts in as many years and the smart money is on another one. If it's Frontier or jetBlue or Spirit, do you really think they'll keep a 3rd fleet type? That means EVERY airbus they replace with a new 737 delivery is NO Captain upgrades for those upcoming deliveries. This means you could *possibly* get stuck as an F/O for up to a DECADE!!

I'm not saying those are all absolutely going to happen, but #1 is a simple fact unless we order more aircraft, and 2 or 3 are very likely possibilities. We absolutely MUST ensure that our F/O rates are worth working under not just for another year or two, but for the entire duration of the contract, the next negotiations, and beyond...

[/rant]

 

[Dashcaptain]

Starting Sept 1 and goes until 21st according to AP at the road show yesterday. They fixed a few things that seem to getting more onboard with the vote. AP said that we need to look at what happened to the FAs. They voted their's down and then voted on the same thing 2 years later.

I still say no!!

 

[Lear70]

Forgot to mention...

F/O's are now eligible to vote 90 days after their class start date.

That means, in all likelihood, anyone that's off O.E. is vote-eligible.

No reason for this thing not to DIE!

 

[FL717]

I *think* he meant that he believes half the CA's are going to vote Yes, half the CA's are going to vote No, thus "split 50/50". That's one thing about the internet, it's sometimes hard to determine *intent* or *tone of voice* behind a post.

That is correct.

Captains typically comprise the more senior people and First Officers typically comprise the more junior people seniority wise by total demographic.

To clarify my original post/point... this TA will have less of a total negative impact on the senior people that have already upgraded and are NOT on reserve or facing reserve (i.e. pay, reserve issues, bidding issues etc etc) than more junior people who are NOT Captains, and ARE facing lower pay, and reserve and bidding issues when they upgrade etc.

As a result, obviously there are more senior Captains that will vote yes because of this lower negative impact on their lives. No divide, no finger pointing, just pointing out human nature and the obvious.

We need the people who gain the LEAST from this TA (READ: First Officers) to sway the total vote.

Its all statistics.

 

[tubelcane]

This thing needs to be buried. We need a new message from new leadership, that isn't afraid to annoy mangaement. Or let manage. decide who they will be at the table with. Unless they are going to give our negotiating comm. the same power. Lear has pointed out the negatives fairly well. Let's get this over with and refocus on the job with a clean slate. We don't need to be agrreeing to anything concessionary. If we can't get a good contract with record profits, ask yourself when will we?

 

[gearup5]

YES YES NO!
AP has got to go. Make him go back and fly the line.
Scope is way to high.
Pay is way to low.

 

[On Your Six]

Vote YES so that Joe Leonard can buy a bigger house and a bigger Lexus and then LAUGH ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK AT YOUR EXPENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[gt1900]

On your six.... Your wrong, Joe doesn't drive a Lexus from what I hear.. I think its a Maserati... We better vote yes so he can buy a Ferrari...

 

[dicko]

1. I am a Captain.

2. I am not on reserve

3. I am voting NO on the TA

4. I am voting No because :

a. The TA sucks, and
b. If you are a Captain you are supposed to be a
leader. If you are a leader then you dont throw
the guy who ' has your back ' under the bus.
Isnt that right Allen .....?

 

[Ty Webb]

They voted their's down and then voted on the same thing 2 years later.

I still say no!!

I would rather work under the 2001 contract for two more years, while dragging a great contract out of them (as AMR and UAL get their new contracts), than work under this proposed POS for the next 5 or 6 years.

Let's take our time & get it right . . . . .

PS., The Flight Attendents aren't in the drivers' seat.

.

 

[PCL_128]

I don't buy the argument that a lot of Captains are going to be voting "yes." I've flown with about 8 different CAs in the last month, and all but one of them were very adamant "NO" voters. Granted, half of them were reserve CAs and most of the rest were junior lineholders, but it's still a good indication that there aren't too many "yes" votes out there.

 

[EMBATP]

all of the f/os plus any captain on reserve should vote no on this and that should be enough....but i would really like to see a lot more no votes to slam this thing really hard....

 

[Britpilot]

NO vote on the way here.

 

[bendover]

Why should the new hires take a pay cut? The only group to take a cut? Aren't they airtran pilots too?
Why the hell do we have a 15 yr pay scale. It only dillutes the pay from 1-12 yrs. 15 yr pay only affects maybe 5-10% of the total pilot group. while the 300 a yr newhires count for 20% of the total group. Sounds like alan is looking out for himself and his buddies.
Why the hell isn't the signing bonus equal across the board for everyone, its not a pay rate, its a signing bonus and the last time i checked everyone has the same EQUAL One Vote per pilot. This contract even takes buddy passes from 1yr hires and forces them to wait 2yrs to BUY them. WOW! Talk about double standards.

 

[Lear70]

This contract even takes buddy passes from 1yr hires and forces them to wait 2yrs to BUY them. WOW! Talk about double standards.

Whoa, whoa... where is THAT?

Now you're gonna make me skip ahead, I'm just finishing up detailed analysis on Sec 5. for the new FULL rebuttal.

Don't tell me we FURTHER threw our new-hires under the bus...

 

[Murphy]

I sense a ground swell of "yes" votes. People are reading this one. They want the pay rates/pay raise, don't want a more radical NPA leadership, are fed up with the negotiating circus and are looking out for number one. It'll be closer than everyone thinks.

 

[Citrusflyer]

I sense a ground swell of "yes" votes. People are reading this one. They want the pay rates/pay raise, don't want a more radical NPA leadership, are fed up with the negotiating circus and are looking out for number one. It'll be closer than everyone thinks.

And, I fear, that is setting up a very, very bad scenario. One in which we barely fail this thing (less than say 80%) and the new NC will have absolutely no clout at the table upon their return next year. The company will know they don't have much more to move to get the magical 50% +1; and we'll be boxed in; already having the pilot group split via the TA (and possibly the recall) vote will not help the situation at all. All of that would all but negate any pull to start over from the old contract vice the TA (2? 3? insert version here). It needs to go down hard, or we'll all pay the price later.

If AP and MS are recalled by a plurality (as is being rumored even on this board) the new guys (when voted in) will not have any respect from management. Unless there is a skill-set out there that has yet to rise up in one of the guys rumored to be running and they can overcome a small recall vote. Everyone needs to vote on this one as well!

The only way to save ourselves from ourselves in that scenario is to elect someone not only with the brains, but the charisma, to pull us together. And, while I hope they appear, I have yet to see any signs of them as of yet.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't get that feeling from listening to folks talk. There are many out there, despite what has been said on flightinfo, that have changed sides in this one. It is going to be very close, hence the problem!

Apathy still has a strong undercurrent in this pilot group, even with the TA/recall votes coming up. It amazes me beyond belief the low turn out for voting, at least as far as the recall. Maybe it will change, but history has not been kind to us in that respect! Everyone needs to get off their a$$, get informed, and vote!

 

[Murphy]

From informal polling, the VP may go down harder in the recall than the Pres. That says a lot about what people think about career politicians. If people vote early and vote "yes" for the TA, the Pres recall may be close. The Pres gets a lot of credit for being a good administrator but not having a handle on the pulse of the pilot group. To the next president.

Don a wig, a pair of jeans, and your favorite t-shirt and walk the concourse and get to know your pilot group. It may be enlightening and hence...a good contract.

 

[SkiFishFly]

Don't tell me we FURTHER threw our new-hires under the bus...

No they just found reverse gear and ran over them a second time just for kicks...

 

[Murphy]

I detest how new hires are thrown under the bus. Pay your dues and shut up. That's a crock of crap. UPS, Continental, and even SWA to some extent. Every time I drive to Baltimore to commute to Atlanta, I think that I could be working for SWA. But I refuse, out of principle to go inteview with them and then have to go buy a type rating. I could get a free 737 type rating from AirTran and maybe bail but that also is not the right thing to do. Somebody needs to have integrity in this industry. I've got friends with Southwest that say I lot of things are done because of decrees sent down from Dallas. Sorry boys and girls, that's the way things have always been done. Suck it up.

 

[-9Capt]

This 10yr Capt is voting no. I can name at least another 50+ that will be doing the same.

 

[UALX727]

I am voting no...