AirTran BOD recommends a No Vote!

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

Thought we could use a new thread.
Let the games begin.:beer:

 

[Max Powers]

The thing that worries me is the recent announcement for deferring 737 deliveries in 2008. After the buyout perhaps they will puts those deferred aircraft over to the midwest certificate as leverage against AirTran pilots in contract talks. There is nothing from keeping them from operating two seperate pilot groups - ala Us airways.

 

[BR715]

Heard that the average day and core credit system are still in the TA. Automatic No vote for me! With this Midwest deal looking more and more like the ATA debacle and the union membership getting ready to send this TA down in flames is will show everyone that our management has no idea how to get a deal done. Dig in your cleats boys its gonna be a while before we have another TA to vote on.

 

[Spud]

see... all we had to do is yell at the top of our lungs and threaten a recall and poof the BOD does the right thing...easy!

 

[Ty Webb]

There is nothing from keeping them from operating two seperate pilot groups - ala Us airways.

Sure there are . . . a "Common Carrier Petition" by the pilots, and outrage by the shareholders.

AirTran management has been selling this thing based upon the synergies of a combined operation. Any attempt to operate two separate airlines will be dealt with harshly, and would pretty much guarantee ALPA representation for the whole pilot group.

 

[gearup5]

Should have done that 2 months ago.
It is about time.
Let's vote No, recall these idiots and move on.

Don't fall victim to Allens' threats that we have no protections going forward if we merge or get bought out. The dude forgot who he was representing.Go ahead and send 73's to midwest. We will have to exercise or right to shut the place down. It is time to sh...t or get off the pot.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

The thing that worries me is the recent announcement for deferring 737 deliveries in 2008. After the buyout perhaps they will puts those deferred aircraft over to the midwest certificate as leverage against AirTran pilots in contract talks. There is nothing from keeping them from operating two seperate pilot groups - ala Us airways.

what announcement to defer?

 

[funnyman12]

"Looking forward, passenger demand appears strong," said Bob Fornaro, AirTran's president and chief operating officer. "With the delivery on July 16th of our last Boeing 737-700 for 2007, we expect to see improving trends in unit revenue and costs during the second half."
I thought we were going to continue deliveries this fall....i guess not.

 

[Eagle757shark]

The thing that worries me is the recent announcement for deferring 737 deliveries in 2008. After the buyout perhaps they will puts those deferred aircraft over to the midwest certificate as leverage against AirTran pilots in contract talks. There is nothing from keeping them from operating two seperate pilot groups - ala Us airways.

Gents lets not lose perspective with the conspiracy theory here. Atlanta can't handle any more airplanes because AirTran has no more gates there. AirTran has over 50 airplanes on order and they can't be placed in service on point to point service, so they must go somewhere. Of course they are going to go to MKE. That is the whole point of attempting to buy a hub in MKE via Midwest. There is no secret there and I don't believe there is a whipsaw period, other than in your mind. Airtran needs this deal and everyone knows it. It cost way to much money to go into a market and try to start a new hub. Think from a business perspective and not from an emotional one and you will be fine. Now this TA is a whole different matter that all AirTran pilots should keep separate. This is not US Airways and I don't foresee it shaking out the same way. AirTran needs a new hub and a new one fast, to place 15 new airplanes next year. If the Midwest deal falls apart, perhaps there will be deferrments. But remember this whole deal is based on putting those shiny 737s somewhere and acquiring LGA, and DCA slots and nothing more. It is not about trying to screw the pilots, so get that out of your head. If the deal goes through, there will be new airplanes coming to AirTran and there will be a need to staff them. Now new hires will have the choice between Atlanta, MKE, and maybe MCI and BWI. Only the displacement of the MD-80 pilots will slow things down at first, but then plenty of growth comes from there. Now the TA.........? New thread.....

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Why can't they be placed in point to point service? SWA seems to do just fine with that type of thing.

 

[NuGuy]

Why can't they be placed in point to point service? SWA seems to do just fine with that type of thing.

Heyas,

Good question. The short answer is that there are only so many "points" that provide a reasonable yield, and those points that are uncontested are becoming few and far between. A lot of the "low hanging fruit" has already been picked. It's going to be a bare knuckle fight for the rest.

I'd say probably only the top 75 markets in the country can support some form of p-t-p flying, if that. Once you deduct the "points" that already have a hub, or city-pairs that make up that hub, you've really whittled the number down.

The city-pairs that remain can only support a certain level of service. Sure you can muscle in, but you will face SWA or a leaned down legacy in the process, making it that much harder.

Despite what some people say, SWA does run hub-type operations, although their aircraft may not simply do turnarounds. Anyone that's seen DAL or MDW could tell you that.

AirTran NEEDS the MEH deal to keep the growth ball rolling, and I think the boys at MEH know it. If they get hung up, they'll have to find somewhere else to put next year's jets, and those options are slim.

Nu

 

[c9skytrain]

I second what Eagle757Shark sez. The whole conspiracy theory thing was getting way out of hand.

 

[Lear70]

I second what Eagle757Shark sez. The whole conspiracy theory thing was getting way out of hand.

Agreed.

Can they whipsaw us? Sure. Is it likely? Probably not.

They're going to HAVE to merge the two operations. Yes, that opinion was verified by Seth Rosen. The question is WHEN do they have to do that?

The answer is: there is no set time frame. They *could* drag their feet after the acquisition is complete and merge just the reservation centers and corporate structure and leave the operation side separate while Midwest pilots get trained on the new aircraft.

The question is: does it REALLY benefit them to do that? To risk the ire of the pilot group here by whipsawing us just to hold a stick over our head?

I don't think so and, even if they did, you're talking 18-24 months to force a single carrier petition through and the integration of the work force.

I believe the risk is VERY minimal, and I'd rather take that small risk than take this P.O.S. T.A.

Not to mention we don't even KNOW if we're GOING to get Midwest. The NWA offer to purchase and be a "silent partner" might look pretty tempting to the "save the cookie" crowd. Question is, will the shareholders and BoD buy off on it...?

 

[TV9Driver]

AA announced they were "acquiring" TWA back in April '01 i believe and when I was furloughed in February of '02 I wasn't even close to being on the AA certificate. Integration of 2 air carrier certificates is a long process. When is the last time the FAA did anything in an expeditious manner?

 

[FIREMAN]

Got my voting guide today, but no "non-TA" company proposed CBA. A no vote is forthcoming but I would like to see the proposed CBA.

 

[ATLDRVR]

I agree. I am voting no, but would like to see what a weeks worth of negotions did to the "new" TA.

 

[Just thinking]

I do not really care what the recommendation may be. They have no credibility after trying with all of their might to sell it when it first came out. Now they tweak a few things and come back with a no recommendation? They will get more than a no vote. They get a no confidence vote. They have violated the trust of the pilot group and they will get recalled. I would like to see the NPA provide all potential candidates room on the web site to post their campaign proposals. I would like to be able to read a bit more about each person to gain a better understanding to make an informed decision. Whomever steps into the position I would recommend a complete audit of the books with the results posted for all to see. What did our dues get us for the last couple of years? Pack your trash boys and review those limitations... you will be back on the line in a bit...Looking forward to seeing the pilot group gain unity through this bit of uncertainty. We must remain committed to each other. Protect our flying. Protect our careers. Protect our future. We have a great pilot group that is highly motivated at this time. RM (lear) has done a wonderful job of educating the pilot group and we owe him a huge debt of gratitude. That sort of education needs to continue to maintain the motivation. Future leaders of the NPA, this pilot group needs LEADERS, not some suits pretending to know what they are doing. Remember that you are a pilot. Fly the line. Hire in the professionals to do the negotiations with a steering committee. Return emails and phone callls. Be available and accountable and don't waste my money.

 

[SkiFishFly]

... Remember that you are a pilot. Fly the line. Hire in the professionals to do the negotiations with a steering committee. Return emails and phone calls. Be available and accountable and don't waste my money.

I second that one.

 

[Max Powers]

Professional in this business don't work. Many of them just don't understand our work rules and some pilots are quite savvy and can do a much better job because they have a vested interests and passion to boot. Very few mediated contract negotiations have ever had pros.

 

[Eagle757shark]

Why can't they be placed in point to point service? SWA seems to do just fine with that type of thing.

Because AirTran's business model is not based off Southwest's. Southwest system is based on a point to point network throughout their system. AirTran even though we have some point to point markets, is modeled mainly on a hub and spoke network. To attempt to further point to point, particularly on the east coast, would endanger your hub flying out of Atlanta. We saw some of that in the 3rd and 4th quarters of last year with the reduction of our load factors. Read the financials, it is all there. It is critical that AirTran have a new hub and soon. They have to commit to those aircraft orders really soon.

 

[Lear70]

Professional in this business don't work. Many of them just don't understand our work rules and some pilots are quite savvy and can do a much better job because they have a vested interests and passion to boot. Very few mediated contract negotiations have ever had pros.

And that's gotten us, collectively as professional pilots, exactly WHERE in the last half decade?

OK, that was a *little* bit of a cheap shot, and I'm not trying to bash on you, buddy... 9/11 and management greed had MUCH to do with where we are today but, in all seriousness, any pilot who doesn't have an MBA in business and extensive litigation/negotiation EXPERIENCE, not just "training", isn't going to last long against Kolski.

I've been there. I've seen it. Some of the pilots on our side of the table were very intelligent people, just ZERO litigation/negotiation credentials and they got served. Period.

The next leadership group must recognize that the *front-line* negotiator on our side of the table needs to be a PROFESSIONAL who is experienced enough to beat Kolski at his own game, shut him down as required, and not lose the battle in small increments, which is what appears happened to the current NC and Pres. Pilots need to be there for direction and consultation, but the company uses Kolski as a foil; we need one of our own.

"Smart" alone just isn't going to cut it.

 

[justin15e]

Why do we allow these negotiations to take so long?

I have a question, since I'm new to the airline business. Why do pilot unions allow these negotiations to drag out for such a long time? It seems like if a deadline arises and a new contract is due and its crap, well doesn't that just bide more time and money for management? Basically, what is the incentive for an airlines management to put out a good first draft of a new good contract? That just means they will have higher costs faster. It sounds to me that these concessionary contracts to ream pilots sound like they are fast tracked whereas the contracts which allow for better QOL and pay seem to take quite a long time and multiple iterations...

I'm new to this industry though, so maybe someone can edumicate me.

 

[Lear70]

I have a question, since I'm new to the airline business. Why do pilot unions allow these negotiations to drag out for such a long time?

We don't "allow" them to do anything... The RLA and the Federal Government do.

It seems like if a deadline arises and a new contract is due and its crap, well doesn't that just bide more time and money for management?

Yes.

Basically, what is the incentive for an airlines management to put out a good first draft of a new good contract?

There's not one.

That just means they will have higher costs faster.

Correct.

It sounds to me that these concessionary contracts to ream pilots sound like they are fast tracked whereas the contracts which allow for better QOL and pay seem to take quite a long time and multiple iterations...

Correct again.

I'm new to this industry though, so maybe someone can edumicate me.

Welcome.

The problem exists on several levels. The airline CEO's pay lobbyists an obscene amount of money to ensure that the pilots (or any organized labor for that matter) don't get anything done for their benefit in any kind of hurry.

This is why the RLA has no teeth. There's no method to force compliance when the company violates the contract. There's no method to force the company to negotiate in good faith.

You can get a mediator... who is appointed by the National Mediation Board and, oh wait, WHO runs the NMB? Oh yeah, they're appointed... by who? 3 guesses, first 2 don't count.

There ARE NO LABOR-FRIENDLY government officials. We (the airlines) exist to get people from Point A to Point B as cheaply and efficiently as possible. Raising our salaries even to adjust for 1960's-era inflation would hike ticket prices and the public would scream bloody murder.

Our ONLY legal tool is work action and it takes YEARS to get there. Thanks to who? Oh yeah, that NMB thing again...

The whole process is broken; has been for some time. Deregulation succeeded in getting cheap tickets for everyone, at the expense of the workers, which WASN'T what MOST people had in mind when it passed.

Our job, at this point, is to get all the pilots educated that our ONLY tool to force a good contract into place is ACTION, then motivate them to ACT in a legal yet effective way, first with informational picketing... messy... public... painful... then, once we have the majority of the pilots on board, we start pushing for release into self-help.

It's going to come to that, or we're going to get another concessionary T.A. People who think it's going to come out any different need a wake-up call. I don't like it, but that's where we're at; never thought I'd say that about this company...

 

[[email protected]]

Any rumors on Airtrans side about a merger with Frontier.

 

[Eagle757shark]

Any rumors on Airtrans side about a merger with Frontier.

I imagine if the Midwest deal falls through, that is all you will hear about. AirTran has a lot of airplanes coming next year and no place to put them. You can bet that everyone will be speculating about AirTran and Frontier if the Midwest deal goes away. Look at the route networks, it would make sense. I don't know about the buses though and how that would fit into the plan. 9am Monday morning will shed more light on what will happen.

 

[captainj]

I voted no! Just got the ballot and am glad to finally get to vote on something.

 

[SkiFishFly]

I voted no! Just got the ballot and am glad to finally get to vote on something.

How did you get the ballot? Should I expect an email???

 

[Av8tor]

How did you get the ballot? Should I expect an email???

Nope........ USPS I got mine yesterday! No way TA!!

 

[captainj]

Ballot

I live in atl and my ballot instructions were in saterdays mail.

 

[TranSporter]

Got mine in the regular mail on Sat. Voted no on the TA and recalled both. Time to move onward and upward.