olympus593
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US Airways Final Recalls: Take it, or Leave it?
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Hey, the fella was talking about what ifs, not necessarily what is going on at present. Don't laugh to hard, think about Continental from 83 into the early 90s, do you think anyone thought that they would have their ******************** together like they do now?
Sure a powerhouse USAir sounds laughable now, but you never know.
But, during any part of that time peroid did Continental have a "Drunk Moron" running their company??? Think about it?
AWA guys help me out here; tell me something, anything that this drunk moron has ever done that can be considered smart??
Just my $0.02, for what its worth. Now go ahead AWA pinheads, rant away. lol
DA
What if the drunk moron gets the boot? What if Gordon Bethune decides to fix USAirways after the drunk moron gets the boot? See where I'm going with this?
I'm an AWA pilot. All I'm trying to say is who woulda thunk it stuff happens all the time. Don't mistake that for rah rah supporting of the "drunk moron", or the wearing of rose colored glasses.
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Golden Falcon
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CA1900
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FurloughedAgain
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FurloughedAgain
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- Let me ask you a question. Seriously now. I've been furloughed since 2002. If I could have been hired by Southwest, UPS, FedEx... don't you think I would be there right now???
FurloughedAgain - Not necessarily - a couple of my friends meet all the requirements and have been waiting for years for a call from any of the three airlines; sometimes it’s just pure luck, or as you said, lack of it.
Missing a few hundred PIC turbine and a whole mess of good luck.
As far as your pic time - I'm sorry, didn't realize that.
However, there are some options here: my roommate's friend was in your shoes as well, had less than 1K turbine pic time. He ended up flying a King Air on a part time basis just to add the 300 hours or so of turbine pic time. I believe he was hired about a year ago and is now flying the MD11 out of ANC now. (besides the King Air job he flew in the right seat at a supplemental carrier flying our troops to and from the Middle East and Europe.)
I mention this just to show you some options, that’s all.
Good luck to you.
FurloughedAgain - Not necessarily - a couple of my friends meet all the requirements and have been waiting for years for a call from any of the three airlines; sometimes it’s just pure luck, or as you said, lack of it.
Missing a few hundred PIC turbine and a whole mess of good luck.
As far as your pic time - I'm sorry, didn't realize that.
However, there are some options here: my roommate's friend was in your shoes as well, had less than 1K turbine pic time. He ended up flying a King Air on a part time basis just to add the 300 hours or so of turbine pic time. I believe he was hired about a year ago and is now flying the MD11 out of ANC now. (besides the King Air job he flew in the right seat at a supplemental carrier flying our troops to and from the Middle East and Europe.)
I mention this just to show you some options, that’s all.
Good luck to you.
Boeing747Driver
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I would Leave it.
As a pilot on both lists I wouldn't recommend coming back. This poop hole is going to implode soon. Sad but true.
FurloughedAgain
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It's funny. I remember during my last months at USAir asking some of the Captains I flew with:
"What would you do, if USAir disappeared tomorrow?"
So few had any real plan-B. The most common answer?
"Oh, I guess i'd just go to Southwest".
You would just go? Just show up on Monday? They're waiting for you and your ten-thousand hours of experience and wisdom?
I think they lacked a clear understanding of the industry and the pickle that the furloughed pilots were facing.
Now, faced with the decision to stay at my present employer or return, I ask myself the same question:
"What will I do if <insert company name here> disappears tomorrow?"
Today I ask myself that question of BOTH employers -- USAir and my current employer.
If I returned to USAir only to be furloughed again... boy a guy can only take so much rejection. I'm sure I would quit flying... but not so sure what else I would/could do? Too old and cynical to become a monk...
My current employer is woven into the very fabric of the American landscape and it's economy -- if they disappeared I believe that to be a sign of the apocalypse... however, I think it very possible that new management may at some point decide to eliminate the corporate aircraft or outsource to a fractional. If this job went away -- again, I think i'm done flying, and if they cant find me a job elsewhere within the company... I just don't know what I would do.
Wish I had a degree in something other than Aviation Management. I wish someone had slapped me over the head in college and suggested that I get an education in something useful.
"What would you do, if USAir disappeared tomorrow?"
So few had any real plan-B. The most common answer?
"Oh, I guess i'd just go to Southwest".
You would just go? Just show up on Monday? They're waiting for you and your ten-thousand hours of experience and wisdom?
I think they lacked a clear understanding of the industry and the pickle that the furloughed pilots were facing.
Now, faced with the decision to stay at my present employer or return, I ask myself the same question:
"What will I do if <insert company name here> disappears tomorrow?"
Today I ask myself that question of BOTH employers -- USAir and my current employer.
If I returned to USAir only to be furloughed again... boy a guy can only take so much rejection. I'm sure I would quit flying... but not so sure what else I would/could do? Too old and cynical to become a monk...
My current employer is woven into the very fabric of the American landscape and it's economy -- if they disappeared I believe that to be a sign of the apocalypse... however, I think it very possible that new management may at some point decide to eliminate the corporate aircraft or outsource to a fractional. If this job went away -- again, I think i'm done flying, and if they cant find me a job elsewhere within the company... I just don't know what I would do.
Wish I had a degree in something other than Aviation Management. I wish someone had slapped me over the head in college and suggested that I get an education in something useful.
PHXFLYR
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It's never too late to go back to school and get an education in "something useful". People much older than you and I are going back to school every day.And to be quite honest with you,I think you already have an education in "something useful" but just don't realize it. Your degree in Aviation Management.Why not go back to school and get your Masters? Betcha your current employer would cover part of the tuition.Then you can get yourself into a flight management position somewhere. Who knows,might lead to a bunch of stock options for you and your family someday.As for me ,with my degree in General Aero/Flight,I'll probably qualify for nothing more than "greeter" for the company you currently fly for. Now there's a useless degree 
PHXFLYR
PHXFLYR
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FurloughedAgain
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LittleDeuce
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You can do a great Masters on-line with Embry-Riddle. No GMAT and US Airways has a new tuition reembursment program.
It's not a lot, $1,000 per year but a great benifit.
Go back to USAir. You can always find a learjet job again. I did when Tower Air folded, and I still miss that job. I am in my late 40s, and I don't think I could have a chance at an upgrade on something large, but maybe you can. I could go to Kalitta and maybe fly the 747 again, but 17 days away in a row would be tough for me and the family now. If you are young enough, move the family to a USAir base and just do it. It will nag at you for an eternity if you do not.
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weasel_lips
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SAVE YOUSELF MAN!!! DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!
Hang tight where you are. There are probably a 1,000 over here at US that would jump for a nice stable corporate gig! (You have the stability, great flight department, a long term future, and 10% off!)
waveflyer
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We all struggle with these decisions b/c we have set up our career in the most socialist way possible thinking that seniority will give us security.
Does anyone feel secure?
I'll grant that seniority's not going anywhere-= so if you want to FIX THIS....
GET RID OF FIRST YEAR PAY. Get rid of it at every single airline=- regional to LCC to charter to Major. The reason we see our wages and work rules slide is because not ONE of us is willing to let go of a place that has bad management. If first year pay industry wide were $60-70k instead of $30k most of us could make the right choice.
Whose bright idea was first year pay to begin with? Is there anyone under the illusion that you will only go through first year pay ONCE?
Does anyone feel secure?
I'll grant that seniority's not going anywhere-= so if you want to FIX THIS....
GET RID OF FIRST YEAR PAY. Get rid of it at every single airline=- regional to LCC to charter to Major. The reason we see our wages and work rules slide is because not ONE of us is willing to let go of a place that has bad management. If first year pay industry wide were $60-70k instead of $30k most of us could make the right choice.
Whose bright idea was first year pay to begin with? Is there anyone under the illusion that you will only go through first year pay ONCE?
reepicheep
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1500 pilots can't all be stupid. I agree with those on here who see the airline set up for a big fall. Seat mile costs are still over 11 cents, we're making money but not doing that great compared to the rest of the industry. In the next downturn US Airways will bleed red ink again, as always, with those sky-high unit costs.
The glory days for this airline ended in 1988.
The glory days for this airline ended in 1988.
waveflyer
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and see- b/c of seniority- you've got pilots thinking they know anything at all about airline financing and management big picture. The only reason we would think we have to know is b/c we are MARRIED to each individual airline and have a bad pre-nup.
Managing our a/c and knowing how to fly is enough=-- trying to play 30 year crystal ball is too much in a business as dynamic as this. It's time we got our career's to be ABLE to be as dynamic as this industry. Think- revenue passenger miles have increased every single year w/ few exceptions- (ie: a few short years after 9/11) yet we can't take advantage of it b/c we're too busy saving our airline from bad management.
A national list could save us. Think of the flexibility and security that would provide. How many people are doing bad commutes from cities that have plenty of airline traffic? How many careers had to start from scratch?
That could only be forgivable if we weren't doing it to ourselves....
Not being ABLE to move company to company is WHY we are ALL so unhappy with our careers. If we won't change our seniority system to something that works for us instead of against us- then at least UP FIRST YEAR PAY SO THAT PILOTS AREN"T MAKING SUCH DESPERATE LIFE DECISIONS.
When you have capable pilots in a survival mode- we all lose leverage. There's a big difference between pilots making decisions to make their lives more comfortable and pilots making decisions to pay RENT and put food on the table.
Btw- we should all be teaching pilots how to be better with our money for the same reasons.
Managing our a/c and knowing how to fly is enough=-- trying to play 30 year crystal ball is too much in a business as dynamic as this. It's time we got our career's to be ABLE to be as dynamic as this industry. Think- revenue passenger miles have increased every single year w/ few exceptions- (ie: a few short years after 9/11) yet we can't take advantage of it b/c we're too busy saving our airline from bad management.
A national list could save us. Think of the flexibility and security that would provide. How many people are doing bad commutes from cities that have plenty of airline traffic? How many careers had to start from scratch?
That could only be forgivable if we weren't doing it to ourselves....
Not being ABLE to move company to company is WHY we are ALL so unhappy with our careers. If we won't change our seniority system to something that works for us instead of against us- then at least UP FIRST YEAR PAY SO THAT PILOTS AREN"T MAKING SUCH DESPERATE LIFE DECISIONS.
When you have capable pilots in a survival mode- we all lose leverage. There's a big difference between pilots making decisions to make their lives more comfortable and pilots making decisions to pay RENT and put food on the table.
Btw- we should all be teaching pilots how to be better with our money for the same reasons.
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A national list could save us.
I have no idea how a "national list" would work? Are you saying that a let's say 10-year USAirways guy could decide to switch over to United and all of a sudden be senior to all United pilots who have less than 10 year seniority? (assuming all are members of the same union)
I'm sure I'm misunderstanding what you mean but if this is what you mean by a national list - I surely wouldn't want anything like that...
I have no idea how a "national list" would work? Are you saying that a let's say 10-year USAirways guy could decide to switch over to United and all of a sudden be senior to all United pilots who have less than 10 year seniority? (assuming all are members of the same union)
I'm sure I'm misunderstanding what you mean but if this is what you mean by a national list - I surely wouldn't want anything like that...
waveflyer
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I don't have all the answers- but i know what isn't working...
One start i believe is to increase "1st year pay" to make it "possible" to leave one company for another. Make it so pilots aren't facing a complete financial disaster if they want to leave or are forced to leave a company - As long as companies go in and out of business and bankruptcy- as long as they know that we will do ANYTHING to keep from starting over at the bottom somewhere else- we will keep losing leverage- b/c they know we WILL ACCEPT any amount of paycuts and work rules to keep the company afloat-- does seniority in it's current form work for anyone who's not a clear winner? How many clear winners are there?
Are we as pilots co-manager's of the airline- and thus largely responsible for it's successes or failures? Are we even a fraction responsible? No other professional loses so much by changing companies as we do. No other employee of an airline is even a fraction as invested as we are.
A national list would carry a completely different dynamic than what we have now--- ie: At United- if a 10year pilot at DCA transferred to Denver he WOULD be senior to every 9 year pilot- but noone would think anything about it.
Like i began with-= i don't have the answers- but until we recognize what isn't working, stop fighting each other- and start working towards a solution-- it'll never get better.
One start i believe is to increase "1st year pay" to make it "possible" to leave one company for another. Make it so pilots aren't facing a complete financial disaster if they want to leave or are forced to leave a company - As long as companies go in and out of business and bankruptcy- as long as they know that we will do ANYTHING to keep from starting over at the bottom somewhere else- we will keep losing leverage- b/c they know we WILL ACCEPT any amount of paycuts and work rules to keep the company afloat-- does seniority in it's current form work for anyone who's not a clear winner? How many clear winners are there?
Are we as pilots co-manager's of the airline- and thus largely responsible for it's successes or failures? Are we even a fraction responsible? No other professional loses so much by changing companies as we do. No other employee of an airline is even a fraction as invested as we are.
A national list would carry a completely different dynamic than what we have now--- ie: At United- if a 10year pilot at DCA transferred to Denver he WOULD be senior to every 9 year pilot- but noone would think anything about it.
Like i began with-= i don't have the answers- but until we recognize what isn't working, stop fighting each other- and start working towards a solution-- it'll never get better.
I don't have all the answers- but i know what isn't working...
That’s the part I don’t understand, what is not working? You mean the capitalist system? That some airlines are flourishing while others keep bleeding? Well, if it wasn’t for the government interaction helping the bleeding airlines stay afloat, they’d be long gone and one could argue the true capitalist system would prevail.
One start i believe is to increase "1st year pay" to make it "possible" to leave one company for another.
Well, I agree that it would be nice and it’s something the unions should always work on, however your premise of raising the 1st year pay so it’s “possible to leave one company for another” would be pretty self destructive from a business perspective, wouldn’t you say? Do you seriously expect an airline to raise the first year pay for their pilots just in case those pilots would like to try their luck at another carrier? If so, then I guess Ford should raise the 1st year pay for all employees in case some of them would like to see what working at GM is like, right?
A national list would carry a completely different dynamic than what we have now--- ie: At United- if a 10year pilot at DCA transferred to Denver he WOULD be senior to every 9 year pilot- but noone would think anything about it.
Well, of course…that’s the way it is now and the reason is – the DCA and the DEN pilots work for the SAME airline – whether DCA or DEN it’s still United! To ask the same of pilots who do NOT work for the same airline would never work and I hope it’ll never happen.
I choose the mutual funds I invest my 401K in (with the help of my financial advisor that is). In a way, it’s always a gamble, they might go up or they might go down. If I invest in a stock that falters - I lose my money.
If someone “invests” either their money OR their professional life a.k.a. employment in a company that for whatever reason falters, why should I - someone who’s working for a competing and a successful airline - be “punished” by losing my seniority to you - someone who “invested” in a bad company?
Think about it, when we invest our money and for whatever reason our portfolios drop in value, we don’t ask the investors whose portfolios have gone up during the same time to “compensate” us for our loss.
So how is your national seniority list idea any different? Why would anyone who just happened to invest his/her future into a company that turned out to be successful be asked to compensate you, or anyone else, for making a choice that turned out wrong? Many times choosing an airline is more about luck and timing than anything else; some people turned out to have a really bad luck and I truly feel sorry for them – however, why would I or anyone else want to give up our seniority to compensate for their bad luck?
I guess I am either not understanding what you’re asking for or am totally amazed what you’re suggesting. Not too long ago there was a national pilot seniority list where you were always guaranteed your seniority no matter which part of the country you wanted to move to and which division you wanted to fly for. The name of the country at the time was CCCP and THE only airline they all worked for was AЭPOФЛОT - I don’t think the national seniority list helped those pilots a whole lot when their country and their company almost went bankrupt. The idea of a national seniority list sounds very socialist to me and I am vehemently anti-Hillary’st.
uke:
That’s the part I don’t understand, what is not working? You mean the capitalist system? That some airlines are flourishing while others keep bleeding? Well, if it wasn’t for the government interaction helping the bleeding airlines stay afloat, they’d be long gone and one could argue the true capitalist system would prevail.
One start i believe is to increase "1st year pay" to make it "possible" to leave one company for another.
Well, I agree that it would be nice and it’s something the unions should always work on, however your premise of raising the 1st year pay so it’s “possible to leave one company for another” would be pretty self destructive from a business perspective, wouldn’t you say? Do you seriously expect an airline to raise the first year pay for their pilots just in case those pilots would like to try their luck at another carrier? If so, then I guess Ford should raise the 1st year pay for all employees in case some of them would like to see what working at GM is like, right?
A national list would carry a completely different dynamic than what we have now--- ie: At United- if a 10year pilot at DCA transferred to Denver he WOULD be senior to every 9 year pilot- but noone would think anything about it.
Well, of course…that’s the way it is now and the reason is – the DCA and the DEN pilots work for the SAME airline – whether DCA or DEN it’s still United! To ask the same of pilots who do NOT work for the same airline would never work and I hope it’ll never happen.
I choose the mutual funds I invest my 401K in (with the help of my financial advisor that is). In a way, it’s always a gamble, they might go up or they might go down. If I invest in a stock that falters - I lose my money.
If someone “invests” either their money OR their professional life a.k.a. employment in a company that for whatever reason falters, why should I - someone who’s working for a competing and a successful airline - be “punished” by losing my seniority to you - someone who “invested” in a bad company?
Think about it, when we invest our money and for whatever reason our portfolios drop in value, we don’t ask the investors whose portfolios have gone up during the same time to “compensate” us for our loss.
So how is your national seniority list idea any different? Why would anyone who just happened to invest his/her future into a company that turned out to be successful be asked to compensate you, or anyone else, for making a choice that turned out wrong? Many times choosing an airline is more about luck and timing than anything else; some people turned out to have a really bad luck and I truly feel sorry for them – however, why would I or anyone else want to give up our seniority to compensate for their bad luck?
I guess I am either not understanding what you’re asking for or am totally amazed what you’re suggesting. Not too long ago there was a national pilot seniority list where you were always guaranteed your seniority no matter which part of the country you wanted to move to and which division you wanted to fly for. The name of the country at the time was CCCP and THE only airline they all worked for was AЭPOФЛОT - I don’t think the national seniority list helped those pilots a whole lot when their country and their company almost went bankrupt. The idea of a national seniority list sounds very socialist to me and I am vehemently anti-Hillary’st.
uke:
waveflyer
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Well, if you're so capitalist- then why do you support the idea of a seniority list at all?... Seniority compromises the free hand of competition.
Can i or you- go to a competing airline and say- "i've got 7000 hours, 5 type ratings- i've been a captain on 4 airplanes for one corporate office and 2 airlines- graduated cum laude, 50 letters of recommendation attesting to my work ethic and abilities- what can you offer me?" Can i get an offer for more responsibility? More money? Do the best/most efficient pilots- even most qualified- get to be captain?
No- it happens when you're number comes up- and that number starts over when you change companies. Capitalism is supposed to work for us= not just against us. What i'm saying is that if we're going to set up a partially socialist system- then go all the way and let it work for us-
The reason it's different than your examples is b/c if you have stocks that consistently underperform- you sell those stocks and buy others.
If you build any significant amount of seniority at an airline-You're married to that airline- you can't easily cut your losses and move to another higher performing airline b/c of seniority and "1st year" pay. (never mind that most of us will go through several rounds of "1st" year pay-). Your experience counts for little. You can be higher qualified and better than many members of your new airline's seniority list and you will still get worse schedules and much less money.
Do you really want to lecture me about capitalism and our current system?
Can i or you- go to a competing airline and say- "i've got 7000 hours, 5 type ratings- i've been a captain on 4 airplanes for one corporate office and 2 airlines- graduated cum laude, 50 letters of recommendation attesting to my work ethic and abilities- what can you offer me?" Can i get an offer for more responsibility? More money? Do the best/most efficient pilots- even most qualified- get to be captain?
No- it happens when you're number comes up- and that number starts over when you change companies. Capitalism is supposed to work for us= not just against us. What i'm saying is that if we're going to set up a partially socialist system- then go all the way and let it work for us-
The reason it's different than your examples is b/c if you have stocks that consistently underperform- you sell those stocks and buy others.
If you build any significant amount of seniority at an airline-You're married to that airline- you can't easily cut your losses and move to another higher performing airline b/c of seniority and "1st year" pay. (never mind that most of us will go through several rounds of "1st" year pay-). Your experience counts for little. You can be higher qualified and better than many members of your new airline's seniority list and you will still get worse schedules and much less money.
Do you really want to lecture me about capitalism and our current system?
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FurloughedAgain
Cabin Heating & Air Tech.
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Speaking of online MBA's -- has anyone heard of Aspen University? They're offering an online MBA for $4500 right now!
Is that legit? What's the catch? Anybody with any info, please let me know. Sounds too good to be true.
http://www.aspen.edu/
Is that legit? What's the catch? Anybody with any info, please let me know. Sounds too good to be true.
http://www.aspen.edu/
You usually get what you pay for....I doubt many employers have heard of Aspen University and an MBA from said university probably won't cary much weight. But if all you need is the ticket then make sure it's accredited and go for it.
A couple years ago I read an article on starting salary for MBA grads from Universities across the country. I think Harvard MBA's had an average starting salary of around 150k/year and there were maybe 20 or so others that all averaged upwards of 100k right out of school. You might want to ask Aspen if they have data on what happens with their grads...
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