200 KIAS below class "B"

[matthewjohn]

We all know the rule. the airspace I am interested in particularly is TEB. Arriving on he Jaike One you are kept in class B airspace if you are at 3000 and NW or 1800 most other places I believe (you can look at the 10-1 in the Jepps to see where I am talking about). Once you are vectored off the arrival the requirement to advise ATC of speed less than 250 is not technically required (but probably still a good idea), so When you are vectored and given a descent below one of the applicable class B floor altitudes without assigned a speed by ATC, is ATC expecting you to slow to 200 kt?!?!

 

[xjcaptain]

They should expect it as it is required by FAR's. Same as slowing to 250 below 10,000. In either case no ATC call is REQUIRED. If you choose to let them know, no harm no foul.

 

[nerdpilot]

Atlanta is the only place especially coming into PDK where they will nail you for speed but I am sure there are others

 

[CA1900]

Getting "nailed" wouldn't be my only concern -- not rear-ending a light airplane who's deliberately flying under the Class B would be high on my list, too.

 

[Taildraggaah]

There was an article in Professional Pilot a few months back that a pilot wrote(sorry the month is escaping me, maybe FEB?). He basically was putting up some great reasons why that rule should be abolished. He talked about how it is a "pitfall" in places like New York...

 

[Indy refugee]

Atlanta is not the only place they'll 'nail' you.

HPN arrivals have been nailed, and some LGB controllers actually enjoy 'nailing' pilots.

 

[PropPiedmont]

MDW, OAK, and SJC too.

 

[BenderGonzales]

I agree it should be abolished for aircraft operating on an IFR flight plan. How do we go about getting an NPRM?

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Unable, too busy.

I wrote about this on the Company web site; I'm in full agreement. This rule, as applied to jets and other IFR airplanes, sucks. We as pilots, need to communicate the central problem with compliance with this rule: We are unable to monitor our exact Class B position at all times during our arrival. (And that's in a modern "glass" airplane like the CL-300. I don't know how the Lear 25 guys ever have a chance.)

We can pre-plan for an arrival, but any unexpected altitude change or vector wipes out what we planned to do. (And we never know when controllers are going to descend us. It's usually after we pass Cherokee 61 Foxtrot.)

If nothing else, the arrival into any of the Class B areas is the time when our attention should be paid to looking for traffic -- to say nothing of checklist completion, monitoring the frequency, consulting the approach plate, and that passenger who got up to get one last drink.

I have suggested to my co-workers we ask for a specific speed assignment at some point on the approach. If the controllers would do us the favor of assigning a speed, then we can maintain an efficient flow of traffic and stay out of legal trouble. Otherwise, they can expect me to ask: "Does this take me under Class B" at the busiest time of their day. I am more than willing to demonstrate to the feds that this is unworkable.

Until the politicians get their head out, that's the best that we mortals can do.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Guys, it isn't hard to figure out when you are below class B. Pull out the chart from Book 1 in your jepps and use some situational awareness.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Spoken by a man who has never been to SMO.

 

[veneratio]

F that ********************, u can be going 220, 230 or whatever, when they ask you what's your speed just say 200. Never admit the truth. But to answer the original question, yes, you have to slow down to 200 kts, and no, you do not have to notify ATC. Same as below 10,000, u can go 180 if u want and not 250 and you don't have to notify ATC, if they see a conflict they will either vector you off or ask you to fly a specific speed.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Hey V

u can go 180 if u want and not 250 and you don't have to notify ATC

Thanks for the back up, but you need to look at the JAIKE arrival into TEB. (Not a common destination in the ERJ, but look at it.)

It requires that we advise ATC when slowing below 250. That means that through all of the random vectoring and altitude changes, we have to find the exact spot when we go below Class B.

With all of the traffic to look for, and already monitoring the STAR chart, and the approach plate, we have to pull out, like the New York Sectional to find this magic spot. All the while, looking for Joe Cherokee. Just can't be done. Anyone who says they can is either John Glenn, or they don't know what they're talking about.

 

[PositionandHold]

Without a sectional chart and on vectors, how would you even know if you're under the shelf? I would have figured they'd always have you slow by telling you. That's been my experience, at least.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

You know you're under the shelf by DME. Of course, if you're doing what you're supposed to, your DME is tuned to some other source (either the VOR on the arrival you're flying, or ILS that you're gonna fly). Then again, some Class B's are centered around something that isn't even a navaid.

Once you figure you're kinda close to being underneath, then you gotta find out if you're north of some radial. Again, the NAV equipment is setup for your arrival or your approach, rather than the 312 radial of the primary airport, which you're not going to. And that's IF the Class B is based off of a navaid. Some are centered around an airport (EWR?); how do I DME Newark Airport?

And then there are the Class B's that use highways or some other criteria to divide the sections.

And no, Position, ATC has no responsibility to tell you you're under Class B. You must be flying around MSP Class B, or somewhere nice. As far as the law goes, it's our job to know when we're underneath -- somehow.

 

[Taildraggaah]

I usually keep the jepp 10-1a class B diagram out with the arrival/departure plates. Also you can "build" the ring around the airport or VOR with some FMS systems...

 

[igneousy2]

Some of you have obviouslly not dealt with this much. It is not that simple unless you have good local knowledge, otherwise it becomes a huge distraction.

1. Most of the time I have encountered this the Navaid that the Class B is predicated on is either A...hard to determine because of the complexit compressed onto a small chart, B. based on a NavAid that isn't on the arrival there are a finite number of VOR receivers on any airplane. C. Based on Some VFR margin like a shoreline or a river - is radar now a considered a NavAid?

2. The 10-1 chart for these airports are not with the approach charts. OAK/SJC= SFO, LGB/ONT/SNA=LAX.

We have enough to do in the terminal area as it is. If we are on an IFR clearence then this speed should not apply.

If someone can find out how to go about making an NPRM I will support it.

How about just eliminating all this wedding cake crap and just push the Class B to the ground. If you want to be anywhere near the busier Class B's especially New York, NorCal and SoCal, and Chicago - you gotta talk to somebody. There are so many busy airports in such a close proximity with jet traffic constantly in and out of these areas it's ridicules you can skirt by without talking to anyone. If you are too afraid to talk to anyone in these areas then you shouldn't be within 50 miles of any of these airports.

Later

 

[Taildraggaah]

Some of you have obviouslly not dealt with this much. It is not that simple unless you have good local knowledge, otherwise it becomes a huge distraction.

1. Most of the time I have encountered this the Navaid that the Class B is predicated on is either A...hard to determine because of the complexit compressed onto a small chart, B. based on a NavAid that isn't on the arrival there are a finite number of VOR receivers on any airplane. C. Based on Some VFR margin like a shoreline or a river - is radar now a considered a NavAid?

2. The 10-1 chart for these airports are not with the approach charts. OAK/SJC= SFO, LGB/ONT/SNA=LAX.

We have enough to do in the terminal area as it is. If we are on an IFR clearence then this speed should not apply.

If someone can find out how to go about making an NPRM I will support it.

How about just eliminating all this wedding cake crap and just push the Class B to the ground. If you want to be anywhere near the busier Class B's especially New York, NorCal and SoCal, and Chicago - you gotta talk to somebody. There are so many busy airports in such a close proximity with jet traffic constantly in and out of these areas it's ridicules you can skirt by without talking to anyone. If you are too afraid to talk to anyone in these areas then you shouldn't be within 50 miles of any of these airports.

Later

well excuse me with your vast hundred hours in your 172. Obviously you don't know how to find charts or maybe you dont carry them...and any private pilot can look at a sectional and figure out where the class B is for a given area, right?

FAR 11.23 says, "The Administrator initiates rulemaking procedure on his own motion. However, in doing so, he considers the recommendations of other agencies of the United States and the petitions of other interested persons." Once the Administrator initiates the procedure, creating a new rule is basically a three-phase project, which is spelled out in FAR Part 11. Phase I may include public hearings, conducting studies, reviewing already submitted petitions, and hosting meetings.

At any rate I agree about dropping the floor to the ground, or eliminating the rule altogether...

 

[igneousy2]

well excuse me with your vast hundred hours in your 172. Obviously you don't know how to find charts or maybe you dont carry them...and any private pilot can look at a sectional and figure out where the class B is for a given area, right?

FAR 11.23 says, "The Administrator initiates rulemaking procedure on his own motion. However, in doing so, he considers the recommendations of other agencies of the United States and the petitions of other interested persons." Once the Administrator initiates the procedure, creating a new rule is basically a three-phase project, which is spelled out in FAR Part 11. Phase I may include public hearings, conducting studies, reviewing already submitted petitions, and hosting meetings.

At any rate I agree about dropping the floor to the ground, or eliminating the rule altogether...

It says 100+...don't feel the need to get into a pissing contest but rest assured it is well over 100 hours.

Sectional chart - now I gotta look at a sectional chart to - I have higher priority stuff going on like looking out for traffic and setting up for the approach.

Just exempt IFR traffic from the stupid rule. It's real simple.


Later

 

[Amish RakeFight]

You know you're under the shelf by DME. Of course, if you're doing what you're supposed to, your DME is tuned to some other source (either the VOR on the arrival you're flying, or ILS that you're gonna fly). Then again, some Class B's are centered around something that isn't even a navaid.

Once you figure you're kinda close to being underneath, then you gotta find out if you're north of some radial. Again, the NAV equipment is setup for your arrival or your approach, rather than the 312 radial of the primary airport, which you're not going to. And that's IF the Class B is based off of a navaid. Some are centered around an airport (EWR?); how do I DME Newark Airport?

And then there are the Class B's that use highways or some other criteria to divide the sections.

And no, Position, ATC has no responsibility to tell you you're under Class B. You must be flying around MSP Class B, or somewhere nice. As far as the law goes, it's our job to know when we're underneath -- somehow.

Technically, I believe when operating in class B airspace, ATC is required to inform the pilot if vectoring will take them outside of it.

 

[xjcaptain]

Just exempt IFR traffic from the stupid rule. It's real simple.

Or nearly as simple.....keep track of where you're at. It's really not that hard. Remember that RMI thingy...points right at stuff. That and those little numbers (DME) and you know right where you are at. Nuff said.

You'd think that as a bunch of supposed professional pilots, we would not be having a discussion about not being able to keep track of where you are at. Wouldn't fly at the PVT level on a checkride, you'd think that a bunch of ATP's would be able to pull it off using advanced equipment in a crew environment. Pretty embarassing really.

 

[bizjet800]

I was being vectored into TEB one evening from the Wilkes Barre (SP?) arrival. We were at 3000' MSL about 10 out from TEB. I slowed to 200 fearing not only being under class B, but being below 2500' within 4 nm of any airport. ATC asked why I had slowed down and I told them the reasons. He couldn't really say anything but you could hear the attitude in his voice as he had to slow down several aircraft behind us. No doubt had we collided with someone, or anyother problem, I would have been at fault.

 

[BombJet45]

Class B's are not always just "rings." Some have straight lines that make it impossible to determine with your little 10-1a chart, unless you have one of those moving maps that displays airspace.
Regs apart, not all Class B's are the same. Some facilities scream at you if you slow and then some scream at you if you do not slow.
Just like on the highway, going with the flow is the safest thing to do, not the posted 55mph.

 

[PositionandHold]

Or nearly as simple.....keep track of where you're at. It's really not that hard. Remember that RMI thingy...points right at stuff. That and those little numbers (DME) and you know right where you are at. Nuff said.

You'd think that as a bunch of supposed professional pilots, we would not be having a discussion about not being able to keep track of where you are at. Wouldn't fly at the PVT level on a checkride, you'd think that a bunch of ATP's would be able to pull it off using advanced equipment in a crew environment. Pretty embarassing really.

Have you ever flown into LAX?

 

[xjcaptain]

Have you ever flown into LAX?

Yep...What's your point? Obviously some airspace is more complex than others. Doesn't change the requirement to operate safely and legally. Some places just may require more attention.

 

[icefr8dawg]

It is a little complicated, if you're doing the LVZ.3 everyone seems to do 250 until you more or less get close to the airport. The first shelf of the B from the west is a 3000 foot shelf so any time you're at 3000 you're doing 250. Lower than 3000 and you have to use a little common sense. The LVZ.3 asks that you tell them if you can't do 250 as well I believe.

 

[stupidpilot]

My question would be, "What are you doing enroute?" Aren't you studying your destination and the surrounding airspace well prior to arriving?

 

[LJ45]

yep, Atlanta asked one of our pilots flying a Citation the other day for his speed while being vectored on the Mikee arrival. He said 250 and the controller said he should be doing 200. Next time I go in there I will make sure to ask the controllers lots of questions.

This does suck for all the reasons everyone mentioned, plus we didn't ask or want to fly below the class B. ATC put us there!

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Hey LJ that sucks. Sorry for your buddy. Atlanta is probably more responsible for this discussion than any other facility.

Wouldn't it be simple to just publish:

"Cross MIKEE at 200 kts"

This could be published for all arrivals to satellite airports, but the guy in the checkered pants would rather leave confusion in the operations. Nothing like promoting flight safety!

 

[LJ45]

well I found an out...at least for the Learjet 45

(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).
(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

Turbulent penetration speed is 250 Kt for the Lear 45...It is always bump at those altitudes so it is necessary to fly at that speed.

Gotcha ;-)