mesaba flow up and down

[xjgearbtch]

2264J why do you care? Take your attitude elsewhere. We'll make it work, your potshots from the cheapseats do nothing productive. But I bet you feel so good expressing your emotions... right.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Can you explain how these two sentences aren't contradictory?

Yes...but thankfully, I don't have too. Everybody but you understands them.

Whether those CL-65-900s go to Mesaba or not depends on Mesaba taking the flow through - yes?

No. As I've posted...no. NO, nein, nyet, non, no, no, no, no.

Got it?

If Mesaba rejects the flow thru...the flow thru dies. At that point, the Northwest MEC must decide whether or not the remaining elements of the deal are "go" or "no go".

ALPA is therefore whipsawing Mesaba pilots with airframes to get furlough protection for the mainliners.

Nice try! The flow thru was negotiated over a year ago as part of the Compass arrangement. If your "furlough protection" motive was accurate, then it was done 14-months ago...and not required as part of this Mesaba deal.

The point is that those Eagle pilots at Northwest and Comair aren't at American and they're not waiting to flow to American.

Wait! You're telling me Eagle pilots had a choice? They were given options?

The horror!

How cruel of ALPA to be a party to an agreement that provided affiliated pilots a potential career pipeline!

Back in the day when Eagle and Continental Express both had flow through agreements, their attrition rates were greater than that of Comair. If flow through is the career advancement vehicle you want us to believe it is, how do you account for that?

"the career advancement vehicle"? Who said that? It's an option. A choice. An opportunity.

If you'll guarantee the future of the industry for the next several years and I'll give a value for it. Since you can't do that, I think it was a good idea for the Northwest MEC to insist on the option for Mesaba pilots.

From my understanding of the language, Mesaba pilots will not be kidnapped and pressed into service at the mainline as part of the flow thru. They'll actually have the option to decline and seek employment at Comair.

Turning junior pilots at another airline into your furlough fodder by witholding flying if they don't acquiesce has no place in a union. In other words, when mainline MECs conspire with management and start deriving a perceived benefit from alter egos, it's over - the union is mortally wounded.

Spare me! Your fundamental premise is wrong, hence your entire thesis.

Nobody is our "furlough fodder". Rejection of the flow thru doesn't preclude new jets at Mesaba. You're clueless.

All three of those statements are accurate and correct.

 

[FSIGRAD]

I know of a number of flow downs, but has a pilot ever flown up in the history of aviation?

 

[jetflier]

From what I understand there has been about one flowup in history that ever worked.

Do the current NWA furloughs go to XJ and Compass, or just Compass?

Pan/Pan Express flow through worked. 3 per month would flow up to mainline while Pan Am was hiring.
This was from Pan Am aquiring Ransome Airlines and initially was going to fly 727 on the Pan Am Shuttle.
Flight Engineers union FEIA rejected this which would have prevented their movement up into a pilots seat.
The Pan Am MEC agreed to then allow a flow through agreement with Ransome pilots. Pan Am had not hired for 20 years, and the Ransome, now Pan Am Express pilots, flowed over to Pan Am with the seniority of 20 years.
Some Ransome pilots went into the right seat of the 747. I personally know of one guy so young (26)to be typed in the 747 that the FA's said that they felt they had a need to nurse him!

The flow through agreement can work, if its done correctly, I'm not sure that the NWA MEC has done that, we'll see...

 

[PCL_128]

I know of a number of flow downs, but has a pilot ever flown up in the history of aviation?

Plenty of pilots flowed up to American and Continental from Eagle and CoEx.

 

[N2264J]

Yes...but thankfully, I don't have too. Everybody but you understands them.

Great - so can anybody here explain to me why the following two sentences are not contradictory?

1) How the Mesaba MEC rules on the issue of the flow thru has no impact on the status of the -900's. 2) The status of those jets depends on how the Northwest MEC would respond to a "veto" by the Mesaba MEC.

If Mesaba rejects the flow thru...the flow thru dies. At that point, the Northwest MEC must decide whether or not the remaining elements of the deal are "go" or "no go".

And the remaining elements of the deal include the placement of 900s - right?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Ok...now I think you're doing it on purpose.

 

[avrorj-85]

yawn...

Hey all you RJDC guys... why don't you start a new thread titled - "how to beat a dead horse". I am so sick of all your rhetoric. It seems like every other XJ thread gets hijacked by you guys. GET A LIFE!!!!

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Hey all you RJDC guys... why don't you start a new thread titled - "how to beat a dead horse". I am so sick of all your rhetoric. It seems like every other XJ thread gets hijacked by you guys. GET A LIFE!!!!

And watch out for slick floors! Piso Mojado!

I think a lot more people would consider flow- (trickle-?) through if we could at least get a weentsy bit of longevity. Maybe simply to avoid first-year pay.

One of my concerns is that Mesaba pilots will patiently wait their turns at flow-through while Pinnacle will fill the other seats of the class. Sadly, I might get on with Northwest more quickly if I quit Mesaba, get hired by Pinnacle, and then go to NWA. Not to say 9E guys shouldn't fill the other seats, but just that they are the likeliest candidates.

Someone might say, yeah, but then you won't have flow-back. I wouldn't? What about Compass? Aren't they basically an accumulator for mainline? Oops, too much pressure in the mainline actuator, shoot 'em back down to the Compass accumulator.

I thought part of the reason we didn't do flow about ten years ago was that we were more likely to get hired without a flow than with. In 2001, Mesaba was losing 20 a month at least to NWA.

Again, I'm no expert . . .

 

[PCL_128]

Great - so can anybody here explain to me why the following two sentences are not contradictory?

You must really be dense. The statements aren't contradictory in the slightest.

1. The MSA MEC can do whatever they want with this. Turn it down, accept it, ask the NWA MEC to modify it, etc... There's nothing requiring the MSA MEC to take this deal.

2. Without a flowthrough, the -900s may or may not come to MSA. It could go either way. The current scope clause has to be modified in some way to allow MSA to have these jets. If the MSA MEC doesn't take the first solution (the flowthrough), then the NWA MEC will have to come up with something else. There's nothing saying that the MSA pilots will lose the -900s if they reject the flowthrough deal.


Is that easy enough for your RJDC kool-aid soaked brain to comprehend?

 

[MesabaDriver]

So if your are NW pilot being furloughed do you have a choice of which airline you flow down into...ie Compass or Mesaba? Since we both have flow thru arrangements. How is it decided as to which regional get's the furloughs... assuming each airline has placed pilots at mainline property due to a flow up.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I think a lot more people would consider flow- (trickle-?) through if we could at least get a weentsy bit of longevity. Maybe simply to avoid first-year pay.

That'd be cool. I think it'd be even cooler if the MEC(s) had simply pulled the trigger on a PID and expedited the Single Carrier Status petition. But since I'm not an officer, all I can do is bark at my reps to push for that, and accept what they do accomplish.

[Reminder: As the RJDC brain trust has explained, all the Single Carrier move would do is make Mesaba an ALPA carrier! :laugh: So much for making them a source for gouge.]

One of my concerns is that Mesaba pilots will patiently wait their turns at flow-through while Pinnacle will fill the other seats of the class. Sadly, I might get on with Northwest more quickly if I quit Mesaba, get hired by Pinnacle, and then go to NWA. Not to say 9E guys shouldn't fill the other seats, but just that they are the likeliest candidates.

1. Why wait for a flow-thru to trigger matriculation to the mainline? I recommend blasting the apps all over and sorting through the options as they present themselves.
2. I don't quite understand the Pinnacle-is-quicker comment. Are you saying that route would lead to higher PIC totals quicker...meaning a stronger app? I'm fairly-well connected to the hiring process and I haven't seen or heard anything that suggests PCL pilots would be given quicker access to our eventual hiring.

Someone might say, yeah, but then you won't have flow-back. I wouldn't? What about Compass? Aren't they basically an accumulator for mainline? Oops, too much pressure in the mainline actuator, shoot 'em back down to the Compass accumulator.

I can't predict the future, but I do know the intent of the flow-thru with both Airlinks. It was sought last year for the same reason it was sought in '99...to provide a closer connection between the mainline and the Airlinks. The benefits to the mainline pilots were to carve out a segment of the larger RJ flying for mainline pilots in the event of a contraction at the mainline...and to reduce the incentive for Airlink pilots to undercut (both voluntarily and involuntarily) smaller aircraft flying at the mainline. The best way to reduce that incentive was to "connect" the more senior segment at the Airlinks to the mainline. Keep in mind, that concept was pitched to us by the Airlink MEC's. The flow-thru has two parents...the mainline and the Airlink(s).

I thought part of the reason we didn't do flow about ten years ago was that we were more likely to get hired without a flow than with. In 2001, Mesaba was losing 20 a month at least to NWA.

Nah. The only reason the flow-thru didn't happen 9-years ago was due to unreasonable language inserted by our management. In '99, Wychor went to Northwest HR will evidence that Northwest wasn't hiring Mesaba pilots, and suggested Northwest was intentionally bypassing Mesaba pilots due to the high rate of attrition at the Airlink. An agreement was reached that set a minimum percentage of Northwest newhires that would come from Mesaba. We called it the "backdoor flow-thru", and Tom deserves 100% of the credit for making it happen. I've seen the Membership summaries from that period, and we never hired 20 MSA pilots per month. During a brief period of peak hiring, it was more like 10-12.

 

[Occam's Razor]

So if your are NW pilot being furloughed do you have a choice of which airline you flow down into...ie Compass or Mesaba? Since we both have flow thru arrangements. How is it decided as to which regional get's the furloughs... assuming each airline has placed pilots at mainline property due to a flow up.

That's one of those "details" being negotiated right now. I know what your follow-up question is...but ti shouldn't be discussed on this Forum. PM me for more.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

S. McIpod: Emp.# Lessthanyou

2. I don't quite understand the Pinnacle-is-quicker comment. Are you saying that route would lead to higher PIC totals quicker...meaning a stronger app? I'm fairly-well connected to the hiring process and I haven't seen or heard anything that suggests PCL pilots would be given quicker access to our eventual hiring.

I've seen the Membership summaries from that period, and we never hired 20 MSA pilots per month. During a brief period of peak hiring, it was more like 10-12.

Good info, thanks.

My point about Pinnacle is that if they don't have a restriction 3/month or 9/month or 10%/yr, etc., it could sadly be easier to get on with NWA if I was anywhere other than Mesaba. I'd guess attrition at Mesaba to NWA was greatest in spring 2001. If it was only 10-12, then that's not too bad, but the restrictions on the flow will still be stricter than that.

My fear is that NW HR will do what they did years back and say, "Mesaba resumes go in this file (the circular one on the floor), and everyone else goes in this file."

NWA is still my #1 choice, and I just don't want Skippy McIPod getting there before me because he worked somewhere else.

 

[Waylon]

I don't think it would be to much to ask to go in at second year pay. If there is a flow back what pay scale are they going to flow to.

 

[123]

I don't think it would be to much to ask to go in at second year pay. If there is a flow back what pay scale are they going to flow to.

I completely agree with you and hope that something like this can be negotiated, but before we negotiate that, it would be nice if NWA management would bring the furloughed back at 2nd year pay (even better if we got full credit for time on furlough). Believe me, it sucks coming back at $29.xx/hr. I am hopeful that this will change, but not holding my breath.

 

[Monster Buck]

Good info, thanks.

My point about Pinnacle is that if they don't have a restriction 3/month or 9/month or 10%/yr, etc., it could sadly be easier to get on with NWA if I was anywhere other than Mesaba. I'd guess attrition at Mesaba to NWA was greatest in spring 2001. If it was only 10-12, then that's not too bad, but the restrictions on the flow will still be stricter than that.

My fear is that NW HR will do what they did years back and say, "Mesaba resumes go in this file (the circular one on the floor), and everyone else goes in this file."

NWA is still my #1 choice, and I just don't want Skippy McIPod getting there before me because he worked somewhere else.

I have to second that. This is part of my fears also. It's nice to have a bone thrown to us but this scenerio imb. brings up is real. If we are locked to no more than the 9 per month,( I remember five Saab CA's coming off the list and going every month in 2000 in DTW alone), then that means the only chance a junior(5-7) year pilot at Mesaba has is to go somewhere else. Or wait a very long time. NWA was taking us at around 500 to 1000 pic on the saab, so a junior captain had a chance. With this, they won't but I quess we can't have it all. Hopefully the second year pay gig will come through and the extra wait will be less of a detractor.

 

[SplitBar]

( I remember five Saab CA's coming off the list and going every month in 2000 in DTW alone), NWA was taking us at around 500 to 1000 pic on the saab, so a junior captain had a chance.

I could be mistaken but I recall the total opposite where NWA was taking very few Mesaba pilots. If the flow-thru goes as planned, there could be a total of 60 XJ pilots flowing up to NWA in 2008 alone. One would be VERY hard pressed to name 60 XJ pilots who went to NWA during 1997-2001.

 

[Smarta$$]

NWA is still my #1 choice, and I just don't want Skippy McIPod getting there before me because he worked somewhere else.

Skippy McIpod will be coming to mesaba very soon if not already!

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

There was very little movement from XJ to NWA for a long time, but I think they smelled a lawsuit when Tom W. show them they were discriminating against XJ pilots. Before 9/11, you couldnt go a day or two without hearing of someone else getting hired.

As for Skippy McIpod coming to XJ, thats fine - we need new blood. I just hope I don't have to smack him for wearing his Oakleys while walking through the terminal.