mesaba flow up and down

[ImbracableCrunk]

I'm no ALPA guru, but wouldn't MSA be required to amend it's contract to allow other pilots on our list before anything can happen? And if so, the ammending won't come from Dougie, Prater, Spongie, or anyone but me and my XJ-types.

Again, I'm not an ALPA guru, so if anyone with insight would care to add to the conversation. . . .

Well according to ALPA boards, KP says it's all between NWA and NWAALPA. MES is simply being advised. It sounds like you're right, YPF.

I guess I thought this would require some change on the MES end as well. Why not?

 

[PCL_128]

So, if I get what you're saying, My MEC cannot control whether or not pilots from another pilot list can flow down? That seems highly suspect. What do you base that statement on?

Ignore YPF. He's a lower-level management stooge. You already have a contract, and it can't be altered unilaterally by the NWA MEC or NWA management. You and your MEC most certainly do have a say.

 

[DoinTime]

However, it will ultimately be the decision of NWA management and the NWA MEC on the terms of the deal. The Mesaba MEC will not have the ability to stop the deal from happening.

The Mesaba pilot group does have a veto. Their job protection language forbids any type of "flow back" that is more than putting a flow back in as a new hire. This veto comes at a price though. Should they excercise it they will lose the -900's.

Tough decision.

 

[Occam's Razor]

PCL is correct. YPF is clueless on the terms. The specifics of the flow thru were and are being done with the participation of Tom W. and the MSA MEC.

If they want changes to the details, they'll be done. When we worked on the last flow thru deal, the two MEC's operated hand-in-hand on the terms...hence the final rejection of that deal when NWA management refused to delete a key element in the terms ("cherry-picking") that the Mesaba MEC could not abide.

I'm sure it angers the RJDC stooges to see a mainline MEC cooperating on mutually-beneficial agreements with it's wholly-owned Airlinks...but it happens. So happy ulcers, losers!

 

[DoinTime]

What I have heard is that like compass if a pilot decides not to flow, he or she is locked in, and any flow downs go behind him on the list. Thats just rumor. i WILL WAIT TO SEE A ROAD SHOW TO PASS JUDGEMENT, BUT MY FIRST LOOK SEEMS TO BE POSITIVE

I don't beleive there is any type "super senority" provision for the Compass pilots. American Eagle had this but I think that was the only flow through that included language like this.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The Mesaba pilot group does have a veto. Their job protection language forbids any type of "flow back" that is more than putting a flow back in as a new hire. This veto comes at a price though. Should they excercise it they will lose the -900's.

Incorrect. The ability to operate the -900's rests with the NWA MEC's ratification of the deal...even if it doesn't include a "flow down".

If the Mesaba MEC rejects the terms, the issue goes back to the Northwest MEC to see if they can live with the -900's as replacements for the Avros without "flow down" language.

 

[DoinTime]

Incorrect. The ability to operate the -900's rests with the NWA MEC's ratification of the deal...even if it doesn't include a "flow down".

If the Mesaba MEC rejects the terms, the issue goes back to the Northwest MEC to see if they can live with the -900's as replacements for the Avros without "flow down" language.

True....the loss of those airframes is a potential consequence of scuttling the deal though.

 

[Occam's Razor]

To repeat: Only if the Northwest MEC determines the deliveries to Mesaba should be scuttled.

Think about that. (I won't spell it out on this Forum)

It might be in Northwest pilot's best interests to see those hulls at Mesaba instead of elsewhere.

'Nuff said.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

Or, if you're a management tool like YourPilotFriend, expect to get fired when you can't complete the schedule this Summer.

The Dairy Queen in Eagan is hiring...so your "safety" job is a GO!

FYI, the Eagan DQ is not hiring, but is accepting resumes. The manager says the DQ in the Phillips neighborhood Minneapolis has cashier positions available, and no experience required.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

And now the union is saying there probably will need to be an LOA - as I suspected.

 

[Occam's Razor]

FYI, the Eagan DQ is not hiring, but is accepting resumes. The manager says the DQ in the Phillips neighborhood Minneapolis has cashier positions available, and no experience required.

Cool! Any word on schedules, pay, and QOL?

 

[Monster Buck]

The Mesaba MEC will not have the ability to stop the deal from happening.

I thought about ten pages of educating you on our contract but instead I will make it simple. YOU WRONG! There will be no adjustments to our seniority list, EVER, unless the OUR MEC approves it.:uzi:

 

[NuGuy]

Cool! Any word on schedules, pay, and QOL?

None of the above are all that good, and the soft serve machine is PFT!

They've really lowered the bar for Legacy Ice Cream stands everywhere...

Nu

 

[N2264J]

To repeat: Only if the Northwest MEC determines the deliveries to Mesaba should be scuttled.

Think about that. (I won't spell it out on this Forum)

It might be in Northwest pilot's best interests to see those hulls at Mesaba instead of elsewhere.

'Nuff said.

You make it sound like Mesaba members are being whipsawed by ALPA using the CL-900s and the promise of a few seats at mainline someday as bait to secure furlough protection for the mainliners. Hedging your bets if Compass is sold?

I think it's fundamentally wrong for ALPA members to negotiate provisions that make the junior pilots of their sister airline your furlough fodder.

If the Mesaba pilots balk, you just move on to Big Sky or Pinnacle with the deal and like management, you know you only need 50% plus 1 to pull this off.

I guess the NWA MEC isn't going to be filing that PID anytime soon.

 

[Occam's Razor]

You make it sound like Mesaba members are being whipsawed by ALPA using the CL-900s and the promise of a few seats at mainline someday as bait to secure furlough protection for the mainliners. Hedging your bets if Compass is sold?

Huh? Talk about reverse sensing! Your irrepressible cynicism is noted. No wonder your puppy wouldn't play with you.

I think it's fundamentally wrong for ALPA members to negotiate provisions that make the junior pilots of their sister airline your furlough fodder.

Noted, without surprise. I think it's fundamentally right for a mainline MEC to assist in obtaining something that is valued by an Airlink MEC. I agree with you 100% that you see it differently...and for that, I am profoundly grateful. I hope I never view improvements and opportunites for my Airlink brothers through the same bile-colored prism you seem to use.

I guess the NWA MEC isn't going to be filing that PID anytime soon.

You might be right. Time to send another check to your lawyer!

 

[N2264J]

I think it's fundamentally right for a mainline MEC to assist in obtaining something that is valued by an Airlink MEC.

If I'm understanding this so far - if Mesaba votes down the flow through, they lose the
CL-900s. How is that not whipsaw by their own union?

I hope I never view improvements and opportunites for my Airlink brothers through the same bile-colored prism you seem to use.

You want to talk about a bile-colored prism, ask an Eagle pilot about their flow through to American. We have a number of Eagle pilots at Comair now.

 

[Occam's Razor]

If I'm understanding this so far - if Mesaba votes down the flow through, they lose the
CL-900s. How is that not whipsaw by their own union?

Your understanding if incorrect, that's how.

How the Mesaba MEC rules on the issue of the flow thru has no impact on the status of the -900's. The status of those jets depends on how the Northwest MEC would respond to a "veto" by the Mesaba MEC. As I posted earlier, it might be in their strategic interests to quash the grievance with the flow thru in abeyance.

You want to talk about a bile-colored prism, ask an Eagle pilot about their flow through to American.

I read on the internet that the Mesaba/Northwest flow thru was done by parties other than American and Eagle. Can you confirm? Rumor has it the deal is structured differently.

We have a number of Eagle pilots at Comair now.

We have a number of Eagle pilots at Northwest too. Do you have a point?

 

[PCL_128]

I read on the internet that the Mesaba/Northwest flow thru was done by parties other than American and Eagle.

Occam, you must not have gotten the memo: the only accurate source of information on all matters aviation is the RJDC website. You should know better by now.

Do you have a point?

He usually doesn't, but that's never stopped him before.

 

[N2264J]

How the Mesaba MEC rules on the issue of the flow thru has no impact on the status of the -900's. The status of those jets depends on how the Northwest MEC would respond to a "veto" by the Mesaba MEC.

Can you explain how these two sentences aren't contradictory? Whether those CL-65-900s go to Mesaba or not depends on Mesaba taking the flow through - yes? ALPA is therefore whipsawing Mesaba pilots with airframes to get furlough protection for the mainliners.

We have a number of Eagle pilots at Northwest too. Do you have a point?

The point is that those Eagle pilots at Northwest and Comair aren't at American and they're not waiting to flow to American.

Back in the day when Eagle and Continental Express both had flow through agreements, their attrition rates were greater than that of Comair. If flow through is the career advancement vehicle you want us to believe it is, how do you account for that?

Turning junior pilots at another airline into your furlough fodder by witholding flying if they don't acquiesce has no place in a union. In other words, when mainline MECs conspire with management and start deriving a perceived benefit from alter egos, it's over - the union is mortally wounded.

 

[N2264J]

I read on the internet that the Mesaba/Northwest flow thru was done by parties other than American and Eagle. Can you confirm?

Both negotiated by ALPA.