SKYW ALPA convert

[Sedona16]

Agreed. M.N. is a great rep and a great person. I know first hand he has held his ground on numerous occasions with unreasonable request by management.

The dave's and uncle rico http://redsquirrel.com/dave/unclerico.jpg
need a good brown bag special or we could just throw them a fancy blanket party in SFO. Filthy, disgusting, and condescending come to mind when considering their sly and slimly lawyer tactics they have used and are continuing to purposefully distract and deceive the pilots.

During the pay endorsement don't forget they left off higher payscales and never explained why.

EXPRESS JET = miles ahead of skywest pay and QOL
HORIZON = miles ahead of skywest pay and QOL

Now failing to invite our own ELected President to the hearing.

DISRESPECT is the bottom line and they owe M.N. and our pilots a big apology.

Couldn't agree more. Livingston and Alden are the worst kind of slimy lawyers. Its not about whats good and right for the group. Its sleezy self interest. They are the antithesis of representation. Notice when they cant win an arguement on its own merit they always rely on semantics....more Clintonesque than Clinton when in a bind. Also they routinely go on the offensive against ALPA yet fail to recognize how completely and totally ineffective SAPA has been. I think its time to really take the arguement to SAPA instead of waisting time on their worthless drivel about ALPA.

 

[Sedona16]

M.N. is a stand up guy. A guy you feel you really can trust. So much different than most of the SAPA crowd.

 

[Nightrain_080]

Couldn't agree more. Livingston and Alden are the worst kind of slimy lawyers. Its not about whats good and right for the group. Its sleezy self interest. They are the antithesis of representation. Notice when they cant win an arguement on its own merit they always rely on semantics....more Clinonesque than Clinton when in a bind. Also they routinely go on the offensive against ALPA yet fail to recongnize how completely and totally ineffective SAPA has been. I think its time to really take the arguement to SAPA and instead of waisting time on their worthless drivel about ALPA.

No doubt. That was spot on.

Notice how the dave's still have not answered us on Why M.N. was not invited to the hearing. Pathetic.

 

[WWEfan]

Hmmmm....where did all the SAPA chest thumpers go? Hellonewman? MELIT?

 

[AWACO]

..................

During the pay endorsement don't forget they left off higher payscales and never explained why.

EXPRESS JET = miles ahead of skywest pay and QOL
HORIZON = miles ahead of skywest pay and QOL

..............

Good thing Mesa is ALPA right?

 

[Sedona16]

Good thing Mesa is ALPA right?

If you knew Mesa before they had ALPA you would never have just said that. You think Mesa is bad now? Prior to ALPA they were paying $14/hr and had much, much worse work rules relative to the rest of the industry than they have now. Is ALPA a panacea for everything? Absolutely not but historically it has empowered pilots to make gains relative to where they have been. When you consider Skywest has been the largest and most profitable regional out there for some time there is no reason the pilots of skywest shouldnt be paid the most and take the lead in raising the bar on the industry (the company would NOT go out of business.....they make around $150 million a year now.....better than most major/legacies). Unfortunately the self serving Sapa reps and a deceptive management team have kept the skywest pilots from sharing in the profits. PLEASE quite pointing to ALPA regionals that are at the bottom unless you cite where they came from and quite forgetting to point to what ALPA did for all carriers before 911. Its not being intellectually honest to point only to what has happened these past six years during a major industry downturn and exclaim "look ALPA didnt get so and so much now did they". Please try to use some history and perspective in your analysis.

 

[SkyNation]

Mesa has reacted to the market the same way SkyWest has, whether their POS contract was negotiated by ALPA, the Girl Scouts, or whomever. SkyWest used to post margins in the 10, 11 and 12 percent range. Now we're less than half of that. SkyWest has done what it needs to do to remain competitive in an ever difficult marketplace. To suggest that they should just 'give' more to the pilot group is shortsighted, uniformed, and lacking of any insight into the complexities of running a large corporation. If ALPA comes on board, you're not just going to magically get more pay, better benies, and QOL. You do know that, right? There seems to be this idea that ALPA just waltzes in, demands things, and management gives them to you. Doesn't work that way, my friend. If we vote in ALPA, we just trade the problems we have with SAPA for a whole new set. Look around at other regionals for examples.

I was at a respected ALPA carrier prior, and like lots of former ALPA folks at SkyWest will tell you, we have it better here.

 

[Sedona16]

Mesa has reacted to the market the same way SkyWest has, whether their POS contract was negotiated by ALPA, the Girl Scouts, or whomever. SkyWest used to post margins in the 10, 11 and 12 percent range. Now we're less than half of that. SkyWest has done what it needs to do to remain competitive in an ever difficult marketplace. To suggest that they should just 'give' more to the pilot group is shortsighted, uniformed, and lacking of any insight into the complexities of running a large corporation. If ALPA comes on board, you're not just going to magically get more pay, better benies, and QOL. You do know that, right? I was at a respected ALPA carrier prior, and like lots of former ALPA folks at SkyWest will tell you, we have it better here.

I also was at another ALPA carrier....went to skywest to live in domicile. I do not think it is shortsited that Skywest could give some decent raises (not just an overide on the 70/90) and make say $125 million instead of $150 million net. Im not talking about outragious raises but something that both sides could comfortably live with. If 7% margins is not enough to survive then maybe skywest really cant afford to buy other companies for hundreds of millions of dollars like they have recently done. How was buying another regional and using them to whipsaw (a losing situation for all pilots in the long run) sharing in the success as skywest so often likes to spout? Skywest now again is approaching one billion cash and yet guys like you take such an extreme polarizing position (either we offer meager pay raises once every five years and none to the turboprop guys or we give huge raises that sink the company) making it sound like a pay raise will cause the company to come crashing down. Use a little common sense and try to think in terms of middle ground. I have watched the work rules get raped and pillaged (usually with Sapa selling or cramming down our throats) while the company banks HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars. Then goes on to hire more labor attorneys and say the pilots dont need a contract. For those of you who dont think the pilots deserve a good, fair, reasonable raise please remember that the company got some people to buy off on the 99 seats for 50 seat pay deal saying it was only for 18 months and we only have a few 70 seat RJ's anyway knowing damwell how many 70 plus seaters would be on the way.....then the 18 months came and went and time dragged on and the pilots got ignored and insulted with talk of 1.2 percent pay raises then finaly years later an overide was put out there for SOME of the airplanes with no pay raises at all for many.....and never any retro pay for dragging feet and not negotiating in good faith. How much is enough money in the company couffers before you feel we deserve a decent raise? What if the company was making a three percent margin that netted $300 million a year and they had $3 billion in cash would you STILL continue this stance that margins are too low....the company cant afford a raise?! Once again, HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH before some of you people say ok its time we deserve a decent raise and lets take the lead in moving this profession forward again instead of backward? Whatever pissed you off about your former employer dont blame it on ALPA and please quite trying to see everything in absolutes.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Sedona - good post. ALPA members also want secure jobs at successful companies. You correctly point out the flaw in SkyNation's logic.

SkyNation may have had a bad experience with ALPA and his previous job and joined SkyWest which is a better fit for him. SkyWest's growth will slow. At the same time Comair, Mesa and Pinnacle have recieved CRJ900 awards that SkyWest did not get. He might not realize that yet because these airplanes are not on the ramp yet.

The point is, Pilots do not buy airplanes. The reason for success, or failure, in this industry should not be whether a pilot gets paid $2 an hour more to fly a jet that costs $4,700 an hour to operate. Yes, pilot costs are a factor, but joining a union that provides a stable industry standard helps to remove this cut throat competition between pilots that lowers the standards of our profession.

ALPA facilitates working together - so everything does not hinge on your willingness to work for less than the other guy. Also, what about longevity? What about the problem that happens in several years when most SkyWest pilots get paid more than the other guy just because they now have more longevity that the most recent shiny jet operator?

ALPA is the only viable long term solution to stabilize this profession and provide a level playing field for managers to run their airlines on.

 

[SkyNation]

I do not think it is shortsited that Skywest could give some decent raises (not just an overide on the 70/90) and makes say $125 million instead of $150 million net.

I agree.

If 7% margins is not enough to survive then maybe skywest really cant afford to buy other companies for hundreds of millions of dollars like they have recently done.

If you work here you must know that they haven't been above 5% for the last 2 years. I wanted nothing to do with buying ASA. However, by doing so we firmed up our contract with Delta, that prior to the purchase could have, and probably would have, gone away via an RFP on our flying. We'd have either taken a pay cut to retain it or lost in the bid process.

For those of you who dont think the pilots deserve a good, fair, reasonable raise

I want more $ as much as the next guy, we all do. The fine line is drawn between what keeps us competitive now, 5 years from now, 10, and so on.

What if the company was making a three percent margin that netted $300 million a year and they had $3 billion in cash would you STILL continue this stance that margins are too low....the company cant afford a raise?!

A 3% margin is a pittance compared to a 10% one, regardless of the net. You have to consider the health of the company in terms of the margins it produces for shareholders. SKYW stock is nowhere near as valuable as it once was, when margins and profits were so much higher.

Once again, HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH before some of you people say ok its time we deserve a decent raise and lets take the lead in moving this profession forward again instead of backward?

I make more than almost all other similarly employed regional RJ drivers. I'd ask you the same, how much is enough? I guarantee that all the whiners would find something else to cry about even if BH came out and gave us each $5/hr and a 10K bonus out of the blue.

Whatever pissed you off about your former employer dont blame it on ALPA and please quite trying to see everything in absolutes.

I'm not now nor was I ever 'pissed' at my former job, nor at ALPA. People just credit them with more power than they will ever have. I wonder, if things were so blessed at your former job, why did you leave for this place that you now deride so much? I think you and I probably would actually agree on most of these points.

 

[Obi-Wan]

Mesa has reacted to the market the same way SkyWest has, whether their POS contract was negotiated by ALPA, the Girl Scouts, or whomever. SkyWest used to post margins in the 10, 11 and 12 percent range. Now we're less than half of that. SkyWest has done what it needs to do to remain competitive in an ever difficult marketplace. To suggest that they should just 'give' more to the pilot group is shortsighted, uniformed, and lacking of any insight into the complexities of running a large corporation. If ALPA comes on board, you're not just going to magically get more pay, better benies, and QOL. You do know that, right? There seems to be this idea that ALPA just waltzes in, demands things, and management gives them to you. Doesn't work that way, my friend. If we vote in ALPA, we just trade the problems we have with SAPA for a whole new set. Look around at other regionals for examples.

I was at a respected ALPA carrier prior, and like lots of former ALPA folks at SkyWest will tell you, we have it better here.

First everyone forgets that Mesa signed what they signed cause they didnt have scope (they do now), remember Freedom Airlines? Now there is scope.

No ALPA isnt going to wave a magic wond and you knew that. It would be narrow minded to think so and no one should have such expectations. What happens is that you negotiate with your company and get what you can. ALPA gives you the tools like financial analysts that look into company books and your own represented pilots negotiate your contract. worse case situation you will keep what you have in form of a contract. Skywest would save tons of money if they just got rid of all double operation over at ASA.
Your management does not look at regionals that are worse than you are and nither should you. Your situation has nothing to do with Mesa etc... Bottom line is to get a contract instead of the company doing what they want when they want.

 

[SkyNation]

Your situation has nothing to do with Mesa etc... Bottom line is to get a contract instead of the company doing what they want when they want.

Mesa is one of our competitors in selling lift to major partners. ALPA negotiated a contract for them that they must use.

Everybody wants more. I simply don't agree that ALPA is the be all, end all way to get it.

 

[Sedona16]

I'm not now nor was I ever 'pissed' at my former job, nor at ALPA. People just credit them with more power than they will ever have. I wonder, if things were so blessed at your former job, why did you leave for this place that you now deride so much? I think you and I probably would actually agree on most of these points.

Net margin, although important is only one small part of the investment puzzle. The fact is Skywest margin wise, beat the industry average by over 400% last year and over the past five years averaged. Other factors for the investor would be dividend/dividend yeild, EPS, dept to equity, gross margin, return on investment, return on assets, return on equity,etc. Also somehow, even though according to sapa and the ranks of disshonest skywest managers the sky is falling at skywest, skywest is just now buying back one hundred and fourty million dollars (thats almost 8% of all outstanding stock). I'm not saying this is a bad idea as it does boost EPS making it even more attractive to investors, Im just saying you guys that hang all your arguements on say "net margin low we are going down or five dollars an hour raise will plummet this company into the abyss" need to get real. Skywest could pay its pilots more as it has repeatedly promised to do (especially during union drives) and still prosper. The other thing, as fins pointed out is that like it or not this profession and each of our future earnings and quality of life (ie raising the bar) is inseperably connected at the proverbial hip with others in our catagoree. We do no live on an island. ALPA is not perfect, we already know that (Im pissed about the age 65 thing) but its the best tool out there and currently the best organization to utilize, setting up our own branch from it from which to stop all the nonsense policy changes and as the largest of the regionals be a leader to help ourselves and this industry. Please get out of the mindset of more shiny planes and keep the wages really low to grow is good. You are shooting yourself and all your brothers in the foot.

As a side note the 99 seat for 50 seat pay agreement did a HUGE amount of damage to our industry. If Sapa was half the organization they claim to be and not absolved in their own self interests they would have never promoted this so heavily. Jetblue went on to use these rates to set the dismal emb rates there. Then NWA Compass looked at JB and our rates and it has mushroomed from there. If I was basing my position on SAPA from no other thing but that (not looking at the dozens of times they have ignored the will of the pilots they purport to represent), I would still fire them for their selfish, non forward looking attitude that ultimately benefits only a few selfish individuals (one who will retire soon and is bucking for a transitional corporate job....and you know who Im talking about). You talk about short sited,
SAPA's moves like 99 seats for 50 seat pay represent the definition of this term as well as anything I can think of in this industry.

 

[SkyNation]

just because I don't endorse ALPA doesn't mean that I'm a rah! rah! guy for SAPA. I wish some people were outside of the box enough to be of the opposite stance. Just because you trash SAPA doesn't mean that ALPA is the answer, and vice-versa.

 

[Sedona16]

One other thing, there is NO reason why skywest shouldnt and couldnt afford to pay what Horizon pays and still bank millions of dollars and be an attractive investment. And before I hear the line SAPA likes to spew about "well uh they are not a uh in the same catagoree as us", I dont buy it. This is not a justifiable excuse for keeping the wages so low over such a long time at Skywest while Skywest year after year exceeds the most it has ever made in the history of its existance.

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/horizon_air.html

Dont miss the part about a 10% 401K match after looking at the pay rates.