mesaba flow up and down

[JamesD]

NWAALPA.com says an agrement has been made for flow up and flow down with mesaba and nwa.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Still working on the 'xactlies, but yes...it's a deal.

About time!

 

[CRJ_Driver]

NWAALPA.com says an agrement has been made for flow up and flow down with mesaba and nwa.

I just read the text version of the MEC Hotline and it's true, there is a flow up/down agreement similar to the agreement that exists with Compass.

NW ALPA says it's a zero cost exchange meaning it provides job protection for NW pilots in exchange for allowing XJ to operate the 900. Awhile back, someone posted on this forum or another, a RJDC link that had a whitepaper on a NW ALPA program called NW70, which called for NW to operate 70 seaters at mainline. The TA appears to mimic that whitepaper.

I would love the legacy's to operate 70 seaters and above, even if for current regional payrates. Under this scenario, I feel this enables the mainline group in a strong bargaining environment to increase SJ pay if it were deemed a priority and probably would.

Unfortunately, this probably will never happen. At least NW pilots have rather good scope language. I think the final determinate will be if NW finds a replacement for the DC9 and operates the replacement at the old DC9 fleet numbers. I think they will as the seat gap is rather significant between the 76 seat SJ and the A319/320.

Fly Safely!

 

[XJohXJ]

It's kind of refreshing to be taking steps in the good direction again. Thank you to all who worked on this deal.

For those opposed: Let the FI scrum begin!

 

[Occam's Razor]

It's kind of refreshing to be taking steps in the good direction again. Thank you to all who worked on this deal.

Another interesting timing thingy: We'll be hiring this year. Mesaba is pat...for now. (Staffing recovery called "no factor" by MSA management wonk)

 

[nwaredtail]

Are you guys nuts? This is just a frickin smoke screen to help NWA park MORE narrowbodies in the future. The MEC will throw in the flow back language to make the junior guys feel better, but with 1000 or so retirements in the next 4 years (500-1000 w/ age 65), NWA and the MEC knows that they can park ALL the DC-9's and still not have to furlough anyone. With 68% of NWA pilots ALREADY voting to give any scope (hell, doesn't affect them) why in the world would anyone think this is a good thing?

Maybe for Mesaba/Compass/Pinnacle because they will grow.

From 475 plus aircraft to 333 in 5 years. Pathetic. Actually, we have the same number of aircraft, just someone besides a NWA pilot flies it.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Wow! Kinda hard following your logic here. The RJ's coming to Mesaba replace the Avro's that departed last year. How is that an erosion of narrowbody aircraft? None of the ratio numbers changed in this deal, and the impact of the work-rule changes will result in more pilots required.

 

[CRJ_Driver]

Are you guys nuts? This is just a frickin smoke screen to help NWA park MORE narrowbodies in the future. The MEC will throw in the flow back language to make the junior guys feel better, but with 1000 or so retirements in the next 4 years (500-1000 w/ age 65), NWA and the MEC knows that they can park ALL the DC-9's and still not have to furlough anyone. With 68% of NWA pilots ALREADY voting to give any scope (hell, doesn't affect them) why in the world would anyone think this is a good thing?

Maybe for Mesaba/Compass/Pinnacle because they will grow.

From 475 plus aircraft to 333 in 5 years. Pathetic. Actually, we have the same number of aircraft, just someone besides a NWA pilot flies it.

I agree with you about it being a smokescreen. I've thought about how NW retirements will offset the increase in SJs for a long time. Sad for everyone imho. However, with that said, I have 2 questions for you.

1. In terms of seats, there is a significant seat gap between the SJ and the A319/320. Wouldn't it make sense for NW to operate something in between?

2. What is the scope language? How many 76 seaters can the regionals operate? Right now, it's 72 total between XJ and CP + CP has 36 options for 108 total. That number does replace the DC-9, but refer to question 1 above.

 

[CRJ_Driver]

Wow! Kinda hard following your logic here. The RJ's coming to Mesaba replace the Avro's that departed last year. How is that an erosion of narrowbody aircraft? None of the ratio numbers changed in this deal, and the impact of the work-rule changes will result in more pilots required.

True, the 900s do replace the Avros. What is the scope? Can you post the language here?

 

[KingAir1985]

How will this effect XJ pilots (especially at the bottom of the list)?

Congrats!

 

[JoeMerchant]

WOW, another flowthrough scheme..... I guess we don't learn from our mistakes....

This doesn't solve any problems, it just continues the same one......

What happened to the PID Occam?

 

[JoeMerchant]

How will this effect XJ pilots (especially at the bottom of the list)?

Congrats!

If there are furloughs at NWA, there will now be furloughs at Mesaba. If not, a junior Mesaba pilot will maybe flow up in 10 years or so.... at newhire pay without any longevity.... Nothing much to see here folks... keep it moving.....

 

[KingAir1985]

From what I understand there has been about one flowup in history that ever worked.

Do the current NWA furloughs go to XJ and Compass, or just Compass?

 

[XJohXJ]

This is a step in the right direction. At least it is a beginning. I realize that the history of flow agreements is not pretty. The details will determine the value. If this is done right it can benefit both pilot groups.

As far as I remember, further 76 seat growth can only occur with new 90+ seat aircraft at mainline.

The 36 CR9's coming on line now, we were going to get, regardless, as Avro replacements.

We all want growth at Mainline. This flow deal is not in opposition to that growth. A 76 aircraft is long long way from an Airbus. NWA seems to be milking those 9's for all they are worth. I think their whole system would collapse without them.

The real positives here are:

NWA and Mesaba ALPA are working together to affect positive change (unity and strength are good things for unions, right?)

NWA ALPA has leverage with NWA mgt, and are fixing some of the problem areas in their TA (maybe you guys can start taxiing faster than the speed of cold syrup again, huh?)

 

[CRJ_Driver]

From what I understand there has been about one flowup in history that ever worked.

Do the current NWA furloughs go to XJ and Compass, or just Compass?

Out of all the NW furloughed pilots, I understand only a handful opted for Compass. Of course, none could opt for XJ. NW expects all furloughed pilots to be back at NW now +or- a few months.

JoeMerchant is right about a junior guy getting to NW in 10 years at year 1 pay. You can't go to XJ or CP for the flow thru.

 

[KingAir1985]

Thanks CRJ.

 

[Occam's Razor]

If there are furloughs at NWA, there will now be furloughs at Mesaba.

Really? You mean like when Northwest furloughed, and then Pinnacle (the other wholly-owned) started furloughing?

Oh wait! That didn't happen. Maybe in "Merchant World"? That planet where it's important to sue for the right to do other pilot's flying for less?

If not, a junior Mesaba pilot will maybe flow up in 10 years or so.... at newhire pay without any longevity....

So exactly how much longevity are Mesaba (or any other Airlink) pilots getting hired at the legacy's getting now?

Bueller?

 

[Occam's Razor]

From what I understand there has been about one flowup in history that ever worked.

Pity you weren't there to convince the Wright brothers to pack it in, huh?

Geez! If it makes you feel any better, I don't think any Mesaba pilot will be forced to flow-up to NWA.

 

[XJohXJ]

..........

 

[JoeMerchant]

Really? You mean like when Northwest furloughed, and then Pinnacle (the other wholly-owned) started furloughing?

Oh wait! That didn't happen. Maybe in "Merchant World"? That planet where it's important to sue for the right to do other pilot's flying for less?

Come on Occam, you can do better than that.... there wasn't a flowthrough/flowback with Pinnacle, that's why they didn't furlough.... ie NO FLOW BACK. Now there is a flowthrough/flowback with Mesaba.... if NWA furloughs, and NWA pilots flowback to Mesaba, there will be furloughs at the bottom... just like there was with Eagle and CAL Express....

So exactly how much longevity are Mesaba (or any other Airlink) pilots getting hired at the legacy's getting now?

Bueller?

They aren't getting any Bueller.... that's the point, that's the point.... they aren't getting anything more than they have now..... They can go to the bottom with zero longevity........ just as they could before this magical agreement.... the difference is now mainline pilots can flowback into the top of the Mesaba list.... such a deal.... no thanks.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Pity you weren't there to convince the Wright brothers to pack it in, huh?

Geez! If it makes you feel any better, I don't think any Mesaba pilot will be forced to flow-up to NWA.

But I bet they will be forced back by furloughed NWA pilots.....

 

[Occam's Razor]

I'm not sure who to shoulders more blame: The government, for their harmful nerve gas experiments on live humans...or you, for volunteering.

I understand your fervent desire to paint anything touched by ALPA as "baaaad!", but you're gonna have to eat the big green one here. This is a good deal.

Best part: It's none of your frickin' business!

 

[Rook]

9E did furlough right after 9/11...they just didn't last that long. And there was preferential hiring of some furloughed NWA guys that wanted to fly the RJ. I know one in particular that became a 9E check airman and recently went back when recalled.

 

[DoinTime]

Wow! Kinda hard following your logic here. The RJ's coming to Mesaba replace the Avro's that departed last year. How is that an erosion of narrowbody aircraft?

The erosion happened back in the late 90's when the Avro's went on line and replaced all of the DC-9-10's in service at NWA.

None of the ratio numbers changed in this deal, and the impact of the work-rule changes will result in more pilots required.

Work rule changes that further decrease pilot productivity? You guys will be back in bankruptcy before you know it.

 

[Sig]

This is a good deal.

So what's that like!?

Deal with it! (ha!)

Glad to see a mainline person advocating a flow agreement, versus taking the ball away from the game, setting it on fire, and challenging anyone playing to prove that a game OR a ball existed in the first place- let alone the pesky flames.

Kudos, lads. All the best.

 

[Blade Runner]

Still working on the 'xactlies, but yes...it's a deal.

About time!

I'd Like to thank all the hard work done by our MEC and NWA ALPA MEC.
Death to WHIPSAWING !!!

 

[YourPilotFriend]

1st year pay at NWA is soon going to be less than first year pay at mesaba or compass. What captain at either XJ or compass is going to be able to take a pay cut down to less than $20,000 when the narrow body replacements start showing up?

Really management agreed to this decision because it locks pilots in at mesaba or compass for at least 30 months from DOS. Your best bet to get hired at NWA mainline in the next 3 years is to work at pinnacle.

 

[Occam's Razor]

1st year pay at NWA is soon going to be less than first year pay at mesaba or compass. What captain at either XJ or compass is going to be able to take a pay cut down to less than $20,000 when the narrow body replacements start showing up?

Nice guess, Nostradumbass! If your predictions about pilot pay are anywhere near your spectacularly incompetent and inaccurate predictions about staffing...we're safe.

Really management agreed to this decision because it locks pilots in at mesaba or compass for at least 30 months from DOS.

Huh?

Add this to the list of things you know nothing about.

Nice try, Herr Goebbels.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The erosion happened back in the late 90's when the Avro's went on line and replaced all of the DC-9-10's in service at NWA.

Check you time-line. The DC-9-10's were here long after the Avros came online. Addition of the Avros at Mesaba has no impact on the deliveries of the A319's either.

I will staunchly defend your right to express your opinion on fleet changes at NWA, but I think you should try form it based on those "fact" thingy's.

Work rule changes that further decrease pilot productivity? You guys will be back in bankruptcy before you know it.

Just the opposite. The changes will require more efficiency. The contract decreased the requirement to make us efficient, because those rules diluted "penalty time" in the schedule. But you knew that, right?

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Nice guess, Nostradumbass! If your predictions about pilot pay are anywhere near your spectacularly incompetent and inaccurate predictions about staffing...we're safe.



Huh?

Add this to the list of things you know nothing about.

Nice try, Herr Goebbels.

What is first year pay for NWA mainline if they replace the DC-9 with a ERJ 195?