Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Burden on Captain

  • Thread starter Thread starter epic!
  • Start date Start date
  • Watchers Watchers 30

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Thats why I am asking. I don't want the captain to think of me as incompetent. I understand that I still have a lot to learn, but I feel that if I can land the job and complete training then my captain shouldn't worry. Or maybe I am just being naive.

You are being naive. The real world of 121 flying is much more fluid than the sim. The sim is nothing more than a script. You play your part, you pass. It's always the same thing every 6 months...666 takeoff...stalls...steepies...VOR approach...V1 cut...air start...ILS...go around and the engine catches fire...another approach, single engine...evac. Sprinkle a circling approach in there somewhere.
In the sim, you are the only plane in the sky, the wx is predictable, ATC gives you what you want, no FA to deal with, no "are you ready to board?", no DMI,s no late inbounds, etc etc.
You seem to have the right attitude, but don't think that flying the sim makes an airline pilot. You should do fine because you sound like you want to do things right, and that attitude is 65% of the equation.
 
Being responsible for all the actions during the flight is the reason why you are called a Captain, your years of experience as an FO should have prepared you for this position that is if you were not just upgraded due to company shortage or for some other selfish reason like aspiring to start earning the the fat bucks without you being ready to accept all the responsibilities that go along with it, such as leadership, what a joke. Your incompetence is your lookout, do not blame the FO, afterall he/she looks up to you for mentorship. If you cannot handle it you do not deserve to be in charge.
 
Mentorship? They don't pay me enough to teach basic airmanship. Lets just get from point a to b and don't make me work or surprise me with anything stupid. Like calling "positive rate" when the wheels haven't even left the pavement.
 
Thats why I am asking. I don't want the captain to think of me as incompetent. I understand that I still have a lot to learn, but I feel that if I can land the job and complete training then my captain shouldn't worry. Or maybe I am just being naive.

Shouldnt worry? Yeah well at the regional level they are so desperate for pilots that just because you got an interview, landed the job, and finished training just doesnt mean that much. I do not know you or how well a pilot you are. I am just talking in general terms. The above mentioned post was good. He wasnt complaining about FO's, but rather stating some very true facts. I entered the regionals with an ATP, 2000 hours, and experience with corporate and charter flying; both single pilot. Plus I had 600 hours of dual given. I wasnt a perfect pilot or FO, still not a perfect pilot, but I was far from a liability for the Captains I flew with. I had flown operationally, proven I can handle weather, ATC, passengers, etc . . . Some guy with a couple of hundred hours just does not have the experience that you dont learn in school. Passing a checkride or getting the job is just the first step in a 26 k run. Moving the rig in the regional world is one of the toughest jobs in aviation. Long hours, tough schedules, little support from company. No flight school can prepare you for 6+ legs in weather down to minimums on a 12+ hour duty day. Throw 20 minute turns, maintenance problems, plane swaps, etc . . . All the Captains on here and out there doing it, well they can toss out their concerns, gripes, and complaints. Guess what all you FO's . . . you havent been Captain yet. Captains have been FOs, so until you know the cockpit from both sides. You have half an opinion. If I do something stupid as Captain there is less chance of FAA issue with the FO than there is if it is other way around. Plain and simple; the Captain has it resting on those 4 stripes. Some guys are good, and handle it; some dont. There are crappy Captains and crappy FOs. Hopefully they arent paired together. Also, the chances of a 400 hour FNG getting a bad Captain arent a fraction of the chances of a Captain getting a bad 400 hour FNG. The best thing an FO can do to get ready for the hell of regional flying is check that ego at the crewroom, and hope the Captain does the same.
 
About a month ago the FAA was reviewing the load manifests of past flights and came across a few that had counted heavy bags(60 lbs) as regular bags (30 lbs). At Comair the FO does the w&b forms and even signs them. They have nothing to do with the CA. Well, because of the mistake someone took off too heavy. did the FAA go after the FO? No, they were actually persuing certificate action against the CA, and nothing for the FO. So this goes to show you right here that you are always flying under the CA's certs.

Dave
 
The new guys have a great attitude and try hard, but some of the low time pilot just can't keep up yet.
 
If you can't handle your FO then bid back to FO or call the school house and request more training....

Complaining about your FO shows a lack of confidence on your part...not theirs....

1. Learn how to talk on the radio. Your poor skills are embarrassing.

2. Basic airmanship like crosswind takeoffs and landings, smooth control application, and a normal traffic pattern are not optional.

Do you really think they are going to teach this stuff at the "school house"? My only lack of confidence is in my FO. Having to always worry about what you are or aren't going to do makes my job harder than it needs to be.

I have no problem "mentoring" as I instructed for two years. I thought I was through holding hands though.

And soon enough I will be "bidding back to FO" - AT A MAJOR!
 
Last edited:
Mentorship? They don't pay me enough to teach basic airmanship. Lets just get from point a to b and don't make me work or surprise me with anything stupid. Like calling "positive rate" when the wheels haven't even left the pavement.

You have two choices, you can stare at the instruments or you can impart your knowledge (which apparently you were born with) on the new FO and contribute to his education. Come to think of it you are also contributing to his education when you stare at the instruments, hopefully he realizes it's how not to act as a Captain.
 
you guys are kinda sounding high and mighty on this one...kinda like the ones that blame every little slip on the f.o., or atc,etc. and assume liability for nothing. the truth of the whole thing is that were all stupid, and those that dont realize theyre stupid, are just plain dangerous....
 
You have two choices, you can stare at the instruments or you can impart your knowledge (which apparently you were born with) on the new FO and contribute to his education. Come to think of it you are also contributing to his education when you stare at the instruments, hopefully he realizes it's how not to act as a Captain.

And at most companies, one of the duties of a PIC is to further the development of the SIC.
 
1. Learn how to talk on the radio. Your poor skills are embarrassing.

2. Basic airmanship like crosswind takeoffs and landings, smooth control application, and a normal traffic pattern are not optional.

Do you really think they are going to teach this stuff at the "school house"? My only lack of confidence is in my FO. Having to always worry about what you are or aren't going to do makes my job harder than it needs to be.

I have no problem "mentoring" as I instructed for two years. I thought I was through holding hands though.

And soon enough I will be "bidding back to FO" - AT A MAJOR!



And how do you want to be treated as an FO when you get to the major?

Shall assumptions be made that you have no Captain exp. and you're just another seat warmer. Do you want the captain to say, you're at a major I am done hand holding you guys. Wanna go Transoceanic? Do you want the Captains to show you how to fly the Atlantic routes or expect you to be a schoolhouse wunderkind?

As a Capts we can show the new guys how to do it right or we can be bitter pilots and forward our attitudes on to them. The fact is we cannot control who sits in the right seat. As FAA qualified FO's we get what we get. These new guys despertly want to fit it and will copy the culture provided, right or wrong. If they see poor captains they take it at face value as they way its done. They do not know the diff between a good Capt and a poor one. We need to be leaders and show them the professional way. Sure it takes more effort but you'll feel better in two years when you have to deadhead or j/s and said FO is the Capt. (cause it is gonna happen)

Problem is... if the poor Capts won't teach these guys how to talk on the radio, xwind landings etc.. then when they fly with the other capts they are going to ask who've they've been flying with and when the names come up we'll know who the poor Captains are....

In addition, we provide a negative learning environemnt to the new FO's only to shove them off on to your fellow Captains. When you get a new FO do you want one that has just flown a good four day with a Captain that took the time to teach, empower and promote or do you want a fearful, angry bitter FO that has regressed all he's learned from the school house cause some tool Capt treated him like garbage?
 
I figured if someone can pass the interview, and complete training they are well qualified to operate the aircraft.

No, it means you have attained the absolute minimum standards necessary to be and apprentice pilot. If you have some other real-world experience behind you, then you are ahead of the game. Would you say an instrument rating is proof that the rated person is competant to fly in all types of conditions? Of course not, it means that person has demonstrated the ability to perform a set of tasks to the minimum requirements of the Practical Test Standards. They are minimally qualified to fly in the IFR system and to start learning about all that goes on in it. The rest of it takes more effort to learn safely than the rating did.

I dont begrudge all the captains the priveledge of b!tching about it, but it is the new reality. New hire qualifications keep going down and the reality is that you will be instructing/mentoring/babysitting/etc whether you like it or not. Maybe its not what you signed on for, but if you dont take the time, they wont get any better. And a lot of them really do want to do the right thing. (More or less, what the Rez said)

Any of you low-time guys lucky enough to get upgraded fast: be careful out there! I hope you were paying attention for that brief time in the right seat, and got as much as you could from the good captains you flew with.
 
I figured if someone can pass the interview, and complete training they are well qualified to operate the aircraft.

I am still an FO. The above is an incorrect assumption. Interviews at the regional are so canned that most are easy to pass not to mention the web is full with gouges. About training I used to figure the same until I have witnessed at least two persons in my class passing who had no business in this profession. I have also witnessed another 4 being sent home. Some, but not everyone is filtered out in training.

Obviously not everyone is filtered out at upgrade either because just about everyone on this board can tell you that he or she has flown with someone in the left seat who absolutely scared the crap out of them. It is very rare but it happens.

According to my instructors and a random FAA backseater: I did very well in training. Still I know that I was a burden for my first few trips. The CA had to keep doing small stuff for me or explain something that I have never heard of. With every trip things got a lot better and after about 100h I felt comfortable. However looking back now (after one year) I am convinced that comfort was a very false sense of security. I was still far from being able to catch most mistakes that came from the left side and I was not able to keep thinking ahead of the plane as much as most CAs can. Now I am doing extra stuff that some CAs don't, or I remind them on small things that they have missed. I still make mistakes but only few and mostly minor ones. I still learn something on each trip but mostly local things unique to certain airports.

IMO anyone who gets into 121 w/o prior 121 experience or anyone who changes plane will be a burden for some time. There are many small things that are particular to 121 and there are many small things that are particular to each plane. Not knowing them will make you vulnerable to mistake, or just slow you down. Either way, it will be up to the more experienced to correct you and provide you with guidance.
 
you guys are kinda sounding high and mighty on this one...kinda like the ones that blame every little slip on the f.o., or atc,etc. and assume liability for nothing. the truth of the whole thing is that were all stupid, and those that dont realize theyre stupid, are just plain dangerous....
Good point. I'm not "high" or "mighty." A more experienced FO is more likely to tell me if I'm doing something "unusual" and keep us both out of trouble.

A new guy is less likely know what "unusual" is.

And actually, I think the point most people are trying to make is that every slip up is the Captain's slip up, since the Captain is the one held responsible for it no matter how it happens.

Look at your Operations Manual. Think it is any coincidence that the Vice President of Flight Operations is responsible for one paragraph and the Captain's responsibilities take the next 40 pages?
 
Last edited:
And how do you want to be treated as an FO when you get to the major?

Shall assumptions be made that you have no Captain exp. and you're just another seat warmer. Do you want the captain to say, you're at a major I am done hand holding you guys. Wanna go Transoceanic? Do you want the Captains to show you how to fly the Atlantic routes or expect you to be a schoolhouse wunderkind?

As a Capts we can show the new guys how to do it right or we can be bitter pilots and forward our attitudes on to them. The fact is we cannot control who sits in the right seat. As FAA qualified FO's we get what we get. These new guys despertly want to fit it and will copy the culture provided, right or wrong. If they see poor captains they take it at face value as they way its done. They do not know the diff between a good Capt and a poor one. We need to be leaders and show them the professional way. Sure it takes more effort but you'll feel better in two years when you have to deadhead or j/s and said FO is the Capt. (cause it is gonna happen)

Problem is... if the poor Capts won't teach these guys how to talk on the radio, xwind landings etc.. then when they fly with the other capts they are going to ask who've they've been flying with and when the names come up we'll know who the poor Captains are....

In addition, we provide a negative learning environemnt to the new FO's only to shove them off on to your fellow Captains. When you get a new FO do you want one that has just flown a good four day with a Captain that took the time to teach, empower and promote or do you want a fearful, angry bitter FO that has regressed all he's learned from the school house cause some tool Capt treated him like garbage?

There is a big difference in teaching someone how to land an airplane and dealing with the specifics of "transoceanic" flight.

If you are hired to be an accountant, teacher, etc., you are expected to be at least proficient at the tasks required in your position. I am tired of flying with people that could not hold their own in a 172, let alone a jet. They would not make it a week flying night freight. But I am expected to train them on basics they should have acquired before coming here.

I am not bitter towards these people, just disappointed in a system that allows this to continue. I don't care if the FO just came off a four day with your "empowering" captain or a poor one, I would sometimes rather have an extra 200 pounds of fuel than someone sitting over there f'ing everything up.
 
Lets talk about the CA who is a burden on the FO! Ive been there and its not fun having to baby sit somebody (usally a chick) that has been around for a while. That shouldnt be any FO's job! Its amazing how some CA's havent figured out there is more to it than being good with the paper work and call outs!

wtf? that post would have been fine without that particular interjection.
 
Shall assumptions be made that you have no Captain exp. and you're just another seat warmer.

Time out there! While there will always be those who slip through the cracks because their daddy knows the right people, most folks moving on to legacy carriers are NOT 250-500 pilot mill kids. By the time the time they move on, they can talk on the radio, they can discuss how to work through a problem, they understand what to expect with windshear, etc. Huge difference there between the two contexts. So much difference, it really does not hold enough water to discuss.
 
I think its just a overall lack of experience, making decisions etc You probably need at least 1000 TT to be a FO in a jet.

At 700-800 hours, I never would have believed that. Now pushing 1200, I wonder how I ever got along before; there is a huge difference in my level of competency. And I'm as excited to go be an FO on a jet as anyone, but even now I wonder if there still might be some holes in my experience.

Anyway, for what it's worth...

-Goose
 
Last edited:

Latest resources

Back
Top