ALPA to uphold and defend AAA/HP seniority list

[TWA Dude]

JT8D: Which old job? You mean at AA?

 

[JT8D]

JT8D: Which old job? You mean at AA?

No HP.

...wether you guys ( HP) wanted this merger or not you guys will be affected by what East does at this point...and right now they have the 1000 yard stare and are threatening to "burn the house down".

HP guys just might find that instead of bigger airplanes and more destinations they are instead updating their resume.

Honestly...how much more bad news (no fault of HP guys) can these guys take?

I wouldn't blame them if they did "burn the house down".

 

[Tejas-Jet]

On the other thread someone said there was a Piedmont 97 hire below some America West pilots

You mean Piedmont the commuter? ...or Piedmont the major airline that was named airline of the year in 1985?

If it is the latter, Piedmont ( the major) was absorbed by US Air in 1989. There are no Piedmont 1997 hires.

At the commuter...yes

 

[TWA Dude]

...wether you guys ( HP) wanted this merger or not you guys will be affected by what East does at this point...and right now they have the 1000 yard stare and are threatening to "burn the house down".

Whether we wanted the merger or not is irrelevent. CEOs make these decisions, they profit and almost all employees suffer. If the Easties decide to burn down the house that's their choice and they have no right to put it on the West's shoulders.

HP guys just might find that instead of bigger airplanes and more destinations they are instead updating their resume.

Sounds like a threat to me. Think we should give in to extortion?

Honestly...how much more bad news (no fault of HP guys) can these guys take?

Honestly, that's not my problem. How much sympathy would there have been for us if Nicolau had awarded something close to DOH (ie, stapled 2/3 of us)?

I wouldn't blame them if they did "burn the house down".

To deliberately cause one's own employer to go out of business out of spite is the epitome of selfishness. I'll bet there are thousands of non-pilot USAirways employees who actually wish to remain employed and who couldn't care less how the pilots' seniority ends up.

My guess: the AAA pilots will not burn their airline down and if they attempt to certify a differnent union they will fail.

 

[JT8D]

Whether we wanted the merger or not is irrelevent. CEOs make these decisions, they profit and almost all employees suffer. If the Easties decide to burn down the house that's their choice and they have no right to put it on the West's shoulders.Sounds like a threat to me. Think we should give in to extortion?Honestly, that's not my problem. How much sympathy would there have been for us if Nicolau had awarded something close to DOH (ie, stapled 2/3 of us)?To deliberately cause one's own employer to go out of business out of spite is the epitome of selfishness. I'll bet there are thousands of non-pilot USAirways employees who actually wish to remain employed and who couldn't care less how the pilots' seniority ends up.

My guess: the AAA pilots will not burn their airline down and if they attempt to certify a differnent union they will fail.

I don't need a debate here...you asked a question. It was "if we give the East higher fences, what will we get in return?" My response was "your old job back' as in the one you are currently enjoying.

I could give a sh1t less when it gets right down to it...I'm not employed by AWA or AAA...

If you do stay in business it will be a hell hole in a mixed cockpit...trust me...I've been there...takes ALL the fun out of flying.

Good luck to ya...

 

[skiandsurf]

Question.....When USAir bought Allegany, Peidmont, PSA and who ever else I left out, how did they merge the seniority lists ???

 

[A350]

I will give you a clue......

DOH

A350

 

[cactusboy53]

Ski;
I couldn't tell you, but I am sure that the decisions are archived by the federal mediation body.

I will say this each and every one is different. DOH may have been part of the merger policy back then to some degree. It is not right now.

If you read the Nicolau award in it's entirety, you will see how the award was done. You will read how the pilot neutrals felt that the ALPA Merger policy was largely followed.

The AAA Merger Committee started out trying to explain the existing ALPA Merger policy to thier pilots (there was a specific e-mail sent out May 2005). The AAA MEC decided to go for DOH.

During joint negotiations they stayed with the plan.

They jointly agreed upon Mediator/Arbitrator Geo. Nicolau. They chose thier pilot neutral and we chose ours. They signed documents that stated that they would be willing to abide by BINDING ARBITRATION if mediation was at an impass (no text stating best 2 out of 3 or automatic DO-OVER).

After being advised by the Mediator that DOH was not a tenable position, they stayed with the plan.

After being advised by the Arbitrator that DOH was not a tenable postion, they stayed with the plan.

The plan didn't work. The arbitration went by ratio/relative seniority (regardless of who was in kindergarden, gestation, conception, etc.).

Why are we wasting time debating something that is done? Why not focus our energies getting $$ out of US Airways and making it a sucessful carrier? With the "Burn it to the Ground" mentality, we may all lose our jobs. How's that going to help a 18.2 year FO that used to be a captain pay for his/her lifestyle?

It's time to put the big pants on and move on. If we do this right, the East could see a decent raise, increase in vacation days, better work schedule and other benefits. We could also see some growth (so far unannounced). OR the pilot groups can remain separate. If we remain separate...I get a decent 90+ hour line, plenty of days off to golf, 3 weeks of vacation, OK pay (but, Man! Could it be better!). No skin off my nose.

 

[TWA Dude]

Question.....When USAir bought Allegany, Peidmont, PSA and who ever else I left out, how did they merge the seniority lists ???

ALPA Merger Policy. Worked then; works now.

 

[Guppiedriver]

Pretty much stayed out of this ordeal lately, but I wonder if any AWA pilots might explain to me what would be the problem with a fence running along, say, the Mississippi.

According to every post I've ever read, none of you guys wanted this merger, so what would it matter if you never flew here in the east?

I've heard all about the horrible stagnation you've had there in the west, but I don't know of any other legacy pilot who would have much sympathy. Stagnation nearly everywhere else is and has been much worse, so you guys would move up reasonably well, right?

Going by Doug's words (yes, he was sober at the time), AWA is certainly better off with the addition of east revenues and reach, so, what would be wrong with all of us just staying put? It doesn't seem like anything would have been taken away from you boys, and all those ex-PSA guys living in Temecula won't jump into the PHX or LAS base.

I think it will be better for the airline in many ways, too....but that's a whole new thread.

So, flame suit is being zipped up....right....now......there it is! All right....go ahead.

I agree with you on one thing only.....your choice of avatars. Long live the G.O.A.T.

 

[Guppiedriver]

I could give a sh1t less when it gets right down to it...I'm not employed by AWA or AAA...

Then go away troll.

 

[JT8D]

Then go away troll.

Have another one..

 

[FDJ2]

What's the source? Not surprised if this is true, but I thought they would wait until later this month.

ALPA Administrative Manual​

a. The Award of the Arbitration Board shall be final and binding on all parties to the arbitration and shall be defended by ALPA. The Award shall include any agreements reached at the mediation step. The Arbitration Board will include in its Award a provision retaining jurisdiction until all the provisions of the Award have been satisfied for the limited purpose of resolving disputes which may arise between the pilot groups with regard to the meaning or interpretation of the Award. (AMENDED - Executive Board October 1991; Executive Board May 1998)

 

[BeCareful!]

ALPA Merger Policy. Worked then; works now.

Right....except that the "award" shows a complete lack of adherence to ALPA merger policy. That's why it ain't exactly "working."

 

[TWA Dude]

Right....except that the "award" shows a complete lack of adherence to ALPA merger policy. That's why it ain't exactly "working."

No, the Nicolau Award showed how one side had unrealistic expectations. You're entitled to disagree with the Award all you like but that doesn't make it any less legal or binding.

From the AWA MEC: (bold print added by me)​

June 7, 2007​

Fellow pilots, Last night, I sent out an autodialer message as a special update for all America West pilots and their families. It read as follows:

“This afternoon, MEC Vice Chairman Mitch Vasin and I met with ALPA President John Prater and the US Airways MEC leadership in Washington. Captain Prater delivered the message that he wants the MECs to immediately engage in a process to utilize the JNC and other parties to explore fences and other career progression provisions. I have discussed this with the MEC and we are unified in our message. No Thank you. We will respectfully decline Captain Prater’s immediate request. Our MEC is quite willing to engage in any process that gets our pilots closer to a joint contract, but only after ALPA has made it clear that it will not set aside or review the Nicolau Award. Your MEC is unwilling to enter into those discussions while there remains any threat that ALPA will do anything other than comply fully and properly with its obligations under Merger Policy – namely defend the Award and present it to management.
As always, please continue to fly safe and secure.”

At the meeting, the message I delivered was the same that was delivered to ALPA’s Executive Council in May. ALPA’s merger policy is clear – the arbitration panel’s decision is final and binding on all parties and we expect ALPA to defend this award. We expect that ALPA’s Executive Council will reconvene at the end of June and we also expect ALPA to effect the presentation of this Award to US Airways CEO Doug Parker and defend this award using all available resources. I have also asked our outside merger counsel, Jeff Freund, to begin reviewing all our legal options to ensure we carefully protect the interests of the America West pilots. The letter I sent to Captain Prater this afternoon responding to his invitation is attached.

I am pleased to announce that the AAA MEC clearly expressed that they are willing to continue to address both our pilot groups mutual collective bargaining concerns and continue the JNC process. To that end, the east and west JNC members have secured additional dates for the JNC process starting July 10 and going through the remainder of the summer. Additionally, I remain hopeful that we can find additional dates. To that end, the AWA MEC has authorized me to continue in the JNC process with the goal being that we can achieve a ratifiable tentative agreement by the fall.

 

[cactusboy53]

BeCareful;
I don't know where you are on the list, but have you personally read the entire award? Have your read the commentary by the pilot neutrals?

If you are that ticked off, what is fair about the #1 AWA now being #518? This award is ratioed and based on relative seniority. Does it seem right to place a 16.2 year AAA next to 6.5 year AWA? YES, if thier relative seniority is approximately the same.

The ALPA merger policy was followed to the "T". They awarded the first 517 to the most very senior AAA pilots. They fenced in the wide body flying for four years. Ratios with ties broken by AGE.

Here's another news flash: If Parker brings his checkbook to the table anytime soon, your pilots (senior and otherwise) that desire a decent raise, better bennefits, and more vacation time may jump ship for just that. Let's try those big pants on for a while, what do ya say little buddy?

 

[Soulfly]

Somehow, somewhere along the way someones age became a seniority factor. Interesting. AGE has nothing to do with seniority. Never has, never will. The AA MEC agreed to the furloughed guys being at the bottom via the transition agreement.

So lets see, a fence is agreed to. No new aircraft based in Phoenix. So all the 190 slots and all the planned growth (europe) at this point goes east. So 30 new slots a year for west guys. Oh yeah, scratch that, Prater will have finished the ONE thing he came to do. Change the age 60 rule. So, no movement at all for the west guys. Could someone explain the defintion of windfall. Oh yeah, that is only a one way street.


Peace

 

[skiandsurf]

Somehow, somewhere along the way someones age became a seniority factor. Interesting. AGE has nothing to do with seniority. Never has, never will. Peace

At MOST airlines, seniority IS based on age.

 

[BoilerUP]

At MOST airlines, seniority IS based on age.

Yeah, when you're a newhire...

 

[Freight Dog]

Seems like there is a confusion here about seniority vs. longevity.

AAA guys definitely have LONGEVITY. Sadly, their 1988 hire's SENIORITY holds a position of a narrowbody FO on reserve.