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ALPA National changes policy, now supports Age 65 retirement

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As I stated, the FAA and Congress are going to change the rule regardless. ALPA wants input while the ruling is being discussed. Smart move on ALPA's aprt I think.

As stated above, they don't need to change their position to provide input during the ruling phase. I'd respect them a lot more if they respected the will of the membership and went down fighting.

This is nothing but an example of ALPA switching sides to make sure they're on the winning team at the end of the game.
 
ALPA can be opposed to the chance and still provide input.

A fool is someone who doesn't realize he's being screwed.

Not really... in ALPA's history it has made many gains with favorable political support....
 
Not really... in ALPA's history it has made many gains with favorable political support....

Well, smart guy, let's see how "many" gains ALPA made in the past by swtching sides when things got heated. Go ahead list some for us.

Why would anyone in the beltway take ALPA seriously if they are going to be known as nothing more than fair weather fans who always want to side with the winning team?

Prater has changed nothing. It's still all about perception and nothing about substance with Alpa.
 
And Rez, since you didn't refute the claim that the EC went against the wishes of the membership, it would appear that you at least agree with that statement?
 
As stated above, they don't need to change their position to provide input during the ruling phase. I'd respect them a lot more if they respected the will of the membership and went down fighting.

This is nothing but an example of ALPA switching sides to make sure they're on the winning team at the end of the game.

John, where did you get your information that ALPA didn't need to change its position in order to provide input during the rule making phase? That's exactly opposite to what our legislative people at UAL are telling us.

FYI, if you look at the results of the poll, the will of the membership was not to "go down fighting" if a change to the Age 60 was inevitable. In fact, only 3 airlines (NWA, PDT, PSA) out of just over 30 airlines voted in the majority to maintain opposition to Age 60 no matter what.
 
John, where did you get your information that ALPA didn't need to change its position in order to provide input during the rule making phase? That's exactly opposite to what our legislative people at UAL are telling us.

FYI, if you look at the results of the poll, the will of the membership was not to "go down fighting" if a change to the Age 60 was inevitable. In fact, only 3 airlines (NWA, PDT, PSA) out of just over 30 airlines voted in the majority to maintain opposition to Age 60 no matter what.

I don't know why your people in Washington are saying that, but it doesn't make sense that the FAA would only be interested in opinions that back their proposal. Alpa could have opposed the change.

As for the results, it was done via roll call of the MEC chairmen, not a ballot of the membership. When the survey took place last October, the membership was 60% opposed to changing the rule. This time the survey results were not released. Gee, I wonder why...
 
I don't know why your people in Washington are saying that, but it doesn't make sense that the FAA would only be interested in opinions that back their proposal. Alpa could have opposed the change.

As for the results, it was done via roll call of the MEC chairmen, not a ballot of the membership. When the survey took place last October, the membership was 60% opposed to changing the rule. This time the survey results were not released. Gee, I wonder why...

John-

They're not "my" people per se. I'm talking my ALPA reps at UAL. Obviously there's a big uproar here at UAL, too- especially among the people that tend to be spectator unionists and didn't even take the time to take the poll. The poll results aren't being "hidden" as you say. Here are two questions here, courtesy of the NWA guys. Note the PATHETIC amount of "unionists" who couldn't take 15 minutes out of their day to participate in a poll such as this. I would bet some of the largest complainers on this forum didn't even take the time to do the survey themselves.

https://crewroom.alpa.org/NWAMEC/De...View.aspx?itemid=8432&ModuleId=5044&Tabid=760

This whole process is political. I don't think the typical pilot understands the political nature of changes like this. I don't 100% either, but I question my representatives who do have a better understanding. This is what I'm being told, take it or leave it:

Pre 1/30/2007: ALPA was against age 65 and was "fighting" in the background on Capitol Hill and were successful until recently. ICAO passes rules which allow pilots to fly past the age of 60. The FAA/U.S. now faces the choice of denying all ICAO pilots access to U.S. airspace who are over the age of 60 or letting them fly in. They decide on the latter despite ALPA's lobbying. The FAA now realize that by doing that, every airline pilot in the U.S. is going to ask why an over 60 year old pilot ICAO pilot can fly in the U.S. but a U.S. pilot can't. So.........

1/30/2007 FAA Administrator Marion Blakely announces that the FAA will propose a new rule to allow pilots to fly until they are 65, the same as the ICAO standard.

5/16/2007 The Senate Commerce Committee comes out with their version of the FAA Reauthorization Bill, and as part of the bill the Age 65 language is included. The House is expected to do the same. According to ALPA's Government Affairs Department, Senators and Congressman who had previously supported ALPA's age 60 position were starting to switch sides, under pressure from whatever entities wanted the Age 60 rule gone (SWAPA, pensionless ALPA pilots who want the rule changed, groups who support the rights of older people like the AARP, etc.)

So basically ALPA is in a bad position. Due to the above, it's pretty clear that Age 60 is going away no matter what ALPA does. ALPA had been successful in the past with killing Age 65 attempts in the past, but no longer can win.

ALPA members clearly state that they want Age 60 to stay, but ALPA National knows it's not going to happen. So they have to make a choice: either continue a fight that is very likely unwinnable and be politically excluded from the new rulemaking that will ultimately govern the Age 65 crowd OR change their position and take part in the political process as the pilots desired in the latest poll taken. So the Executive Board voted to support the rule change as to not be excluded from the process of the ineveitable Age 65 rulemaking as we don't want an organization like the ATA (read: airline management) having more influence on the new Age 65 rules than ALPA.
 
Can you see this happening too?

So the Executive Board voted to support the rule change as to not be excluded from the process of the ineveitable cabotage and foreign ownership rulemaking as we don't want an organization like the IATA (read: airline management) having more influence on the new cabotage and foreign ownership rules than ALPA.

So this begs the question...

Why do we even have ALPA? Can you think of better things to do with 1.95% of your paycheck? I sure can...
 
Can you see this happening too?



So this begs the question...

Why do we even have ALPA? Can you think of better things to do with 1.95% of your paycheck? I sure can...

I absolutely can see that happening. Basically what you're saying is, "Since ALPA doesn't get its way 100% of the time on all issues, then why have ALPA?" Well, we lose some fights and we win some. And we'll lose more in the future. I think cabotage and foreign ownership are issues that are bigger than ALPA and that we'll probably lose years down the road. I don't think ALPA can fight things like market forces (like what happened in the early 00's), globalization, etc., no matter how big ALPA is or how much $$ people give to ALPA-PAC. So to answer your question, IMO, ALPA should delay items like you mention for as long as they possibly can (like they did with Age 65- remember ALPA has "beaten" this issue every time it's come up until now). And when "bad things" do inevitably pass (cabotage, foreign ownership), ALPA can hopefully influence these things as much in our favor as possible. That's what I pay my 2% for. And of course if we get a few wins along the way, all the better.

Further, I get legal representation as needed, my contracts negotiated by professional negotiators, a top notch medical department if I ever have that theoretical career ending heart attack, someone to protect me if I make a decision that my company doesn't like, etc., etc. I guess if the protections/services that ALPA provides you aren't a good value for your 2%, you need to shop elsewhere. To me, it's a good value. In fact, the $$ that ALPA has obtained "on my behalf" during our bankruptcy process is more than I'll ever pay in ALPA dues my entire life. So maybe I'm biased.....
 
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Name some in recent history.....

How about the the inclusion of labor in April's open skies negotiations. With that inclusion we'd be much worse off....


In stead of looking at FI for your information why not get connected to your ALPA reps and the organization...
 
So define what a "real union" is?

One that stands up when bullied instead of rolling over. How many times did pilot groups cave when threatened with bankruptcy over the last 5 years or regionals accepted substandard agreements to get bigger or more airplanes?

One that protects all of its memebers interests (J4J program at US Air WOs)

ALPA is at a crossroads and major changes need to take place. A good place to start would be fragmenting the regionals off to get rid of the conflict of interest. You could still share resources in medical, certificate action, safety, etc.. but barganing should be separate. Either that or come up with a way to resolve disputes internally effectively.
 
How about the the inclusion of labor in April's open skies negotiations. With that inclusion we'd be much worse off....

Do you really think labor had that much pull in those negotiations? What exactly did labor get for pilots in that agreement? Cabatoge was never really up this round, so that would not have happened (yet) even if we were not included.

In stead of looking at FI for your information why not get connected to your ALPA reps and the organization...[/
quote]

Classic Rez... "you are not involved enough". Thankfully, I am no longer at an ALPA carrier. I was involved enough at my previous job and it was enough to make me discusted with ALPA. (although i did do well at the tables at the last BOD) :)
 
Name some in recent history.....

How about when a labor unfriendly Congressman tried to "slip" some verbage into some recent legislation that defined ANY work action by ANY transportation employee as "an act of terrorism" to be dealt with accordingly. Did you hear about that little gem? I did. Thankfully, I had ALPA legislative people on my side to get the language removed through the Senators and Congressmen we have established relationships with.

How about all the times that ALPA actually defeated changes to the Age 60 rule, until now when it became politically impossible?

And for that matter, do you think I can list EVERY time ALPA does something good for the pilot group behind the scenes? I can't. I just know it happens. Just because you don't see ALPA guys jumping up and down saying, "look what I did today" doesn't mean they're all sitting around doing nothing.
 
One that stands up when bullied instead of rolling over. How many times did pilot groups cave when threatened with bankruptcy over the last 5 years or regionals accepted substandard agreements to get bigger or more airplanes?

One that protects all of its memebers interests (J4J program at US Air WOs)

ALPA is at a crossroads and major changes need to take place. A good place to start would be fragmenting the regionals off to get rid of the conflict of interest. You could still share resources in medical, certificate action, safety, etc.. but barganing should be separate. Either that or come up with a way to resolve disputes internally effectively.

That's the problem d328pilot. You equate fighting battles to the death no matter what the consequences with "real union." I don't equate it that way at all. I want my Union to be smart about anything it does, and that includes the battles it picks to fight and the way it fights them. To me that doesn't equal "fighting to the death" when it will be to my detriment long term.

I don't know enough about the J4J deal with US Air to comment about that. But, for example, I can comment on your bankruptcy "rolling over." Look at UAL for example. We gave up over 1.1B a year in pay, work rules cuts, and retirement in order to save the company. Why? Because ALPA can't overcome market forces. At all the ALPA carriers we were forced to either compete with the realities of the market that changed (i.e. the advent of the LCC's and their cheap labor) or perish. As I stated in a previous post, even if ALPA at every ALPA carrier was so feared, fought so hard that during our bankruptcies we took ZERO in cuts, every ALPA carrier would eventually die. Airlines that have Captains making $220/hr. and F/O's making $140/hr. with a nice pension and great work rules don't exist anymore. It's simply not competitive and market forces "fix" those kinds of inequities. So is ALPA not a "real union" because the market for highly compensated airline pilots no longer exists and ALPA recognized that and changed to adapt to new market realities?

Further, "real unions" make mistakes and ALPA has made plenty. And whatever union defines yours or anyone else's definition of "real union" will likely do the same.
 
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So answer this, UALDriver, if ALPA beat Age 60 every other time, why couldn't we beat it again?

To back down now, we are making ourselves look like hypocrites, because ALPA has always insisted that flying beyond 60 was unsafe. Are they saying it's safe now? Once you go down the safety road you can't go back.

So what if Europe approved age 60? Most of Europe are socialists too, but I don't see that changing here.

The truth is that ALPA caved to the pressure from the high dues paying senior pilots who lost their pensions and need to keep working. That's a win-win for the union, because at 1.95% these are also the top dues payers, and ALPA will be raking it in for another 5 years. They are, as said before, robbing the junior pilots to pay the senior pilots. The ICAO and FAA position is nothing but an excuse for ALPA to do something they wanted to do anyhow, but couldn't figure out how.

Fortunately, Blakey did them a favor. As if they didn't discuss it beforehand...
 

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