ALPA National changes policy, now supports Age 65 retirement

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Trade Unionism

Let me guess. a national seniority list and national pay rates. If so, do a search on these boards and the way a national lists and rates are proposed are easily disproven. Until someone comes up with a way to make it work it is...unworkable. Alternative fuels are a great idea, but until someone comes up with a applicable technologies....


Posting two words on FI isn't the solution to our problems. I am not saying it won't work... however, if you believe trade unionsism is the way to go you will have to become an activist.

Wow... becoming active in your career.... who'd a thought...


We can keep talking but the we come back to the same conclusion.... Air Line Pilots are going to have to become more active in thier own careers... whether the solution is making the status quo more effective or creating a new organization... you are going to have to activate!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Same question to you UALDriver... ever stopped and question why people don't show up to union meetings?

FD-

One of the reasons I don't like meetings is litening to the Officers talk. I don't want to listen.... I want them to listen...

Why do you think pilots don't show to meetings....

 

[Freight Dog]

Oh BTW... from a guy who wears his pin upside down, it's not "one issue."

Folding on Age 60 sends a loud and clear message that we'll fold everytime the going gets tough. But let's go back a while.

We used to honor other unions striking. Look at Eastern in 89. Was that an ALPA strike, or did ALPA choose to honor IAM strike?

Some things are sacred. I used to think that pensions were sacred. If a pilot worked for 30 years and right in his sunset years, ALPA agrees to terminate this pilot's pension leaving this guy with miserable $2300/month, where is honor in that? What about a guy who already retired? Where is this "defending the profession" LEADERSHIP from ALPA National i.e. Duane Woerth stating he will refuse to sign any TA that involves selling out pilots soon to retire and those who have retired? Where is that "ALPA Nuke" that George Hopkins talked about in Flying The Line II? I thought some things were sacred... I was wrong.

Paycuts... we all took massive paycuts, supposedly to save our airlines. About the only thing we managed to save were managements retirements and trust funds. How is it that we can turn a profit with record fuel prices?
Yet ALPA bent over backwards to sign every concessionary agreement.

OK... into the future we go....

Age 60. Instead of fighting to restore pensions, work rules, pay, etc. we agree to work more instead under the same concessionary conditions as before. Oh yeah, it's because it's "inevitable." Maybe, maybe not. Some ICAO countries aren't participating in Age 65. For example, isn't France one of those?

Globalization is coming, right? Soon enough, we'll have ALPA caving in to cabotage as well because it's "inevitable" and once again, you'll see spineless idiots in Herndon saying it's "inevitable" and we have to support it.

Have any of them ever stopped and thought about drastic measures?

Ever wonder about a threat of nationwide suspension of service? Of course, nowadays no one would view it as a credible threat because ALPA is an entity with no principles, backbone or leadership.

But let's say ALPA said screw RLA, <insert a cause - pensions, fighting cabotage, etc> is way more important than that... and called a nationwide pilot strike. Just one day SOS would cripple this nation. Yes, we'd take flak and bad rap, but think of the aftermath - if we said we're going to do something, everybody would listen - be it airlines or be it government.

No amount of PAC money can buy that - ALPA would be standing by its own principles and if it said something - everybody would listen. Unfortunately, you won't see that.

Would ALPA be financially bankrupt? Yes.
Would ALPA be ethically and morally bankrupt in the eyes of its members? Not in a million years.

In its current form with its current practices, ALPA is worthless, outdated and irrelevant.

Now you know why I wear my ALPA pin upside down.

 

[ualdriver]

Oh BTW... from a guy who wears his pin upside down, it's not "one issue."

The management at your airline thanks you for doing that, by the way.


Foldithe going gets tough. But let's go back a while.ng on Age 60 sends a loud and clear message that we'll fold everytime

The Age 60 issue died on 1/31/07. ALPA fought and delayed its inception, and now it's lost. Discussed ad nauseum. We'll agree to disagree.


We used to honor other unions striking. Look at Eastern in 89. Was that an ALPA strike, or did ALPA choose to honor IAM strike?

Good point. There seems to be a lack of solidarity among the individual unionized trades.

Some things are sacred. I used to think that pensions were sacred. If a pilot worked for 30 years and right in his sunset years, ALPA agrees to terminate this pilot's pension leaving this guy with miserable $2300/month, where is honor in that?

Again, so that ALPA's fault when a pension is financially impossible? Look at what happened at my airline. We had a 2B hole to fill or the PBGC was legally going to take it over no matter how much ALPA protested (and they did). We weren't going to get exit financing because no bank was going to lend us money just to put in the pilot's pension, never mind everyone else's. ALPA was given this $hit sandwich to chomp on: Continue to fight the pension and lose OR here's a $525M bond to divide among your members and stop fighting the takeover of your massively underfunded pension. You want an entity to blame on the loss of pensions? Blame all of our competitors who undercut you and me that bled us to death in the late 90's and early 00's. ALPA didn't lose your pension.


Paycuts... we all took massive paycuts, supposedly to save our airlines. About the only thing we managed to save were managements retirements and trust funds. How is it that we can turn a profit with record fuel prices?
Yet ALPA bent over backwards to sign every concessionary agreement.

OK, so your argument is that ALPA shouldn't have brought pilot pay, work rules, and retirment down to the "low bar" that was set by market forces in the late 90's and early 00's? Exactly how can ALPA add 100's of millions to an airline's bottom line to pay for the contracts we had? Should we wave a magic wand? Short of placing a huge, fortunate bet on the general direction of fuel prices, how can ALPA airlines paying their pilots over 200 bucks an hour with fantastic work rules (read:expensive) and a retirement compete against a JetBlue or a Skybus that will never have any of those things? It's not possible FreightDog. Market forces are far more powerful than anything ALPA can do in that regard. If pilot wages continue to be driven down like they were in the late 90's early 00's, then ALPA carriers will take another cut. If we can get EVERYONE to get their rates up, then they'll go up at the ALPA carriers. He11, get everyone to join some sort of Union and I doubt we'll see this ridiculous undercutting ever again. It's that simple. They'll be upward pressure at my ALPA carrier come '09 when my contract comes around? How about yours?


Age 60. Instead of fighting to restore pensions, work rules, pay, etc. we agree to work more instead under the same concessionary conditions as before. Oh yeah, it's because it's "inevitable."

No, Age 60 wasn't lost becuase it was "inevitable." You're confusing my personal opinion with a political loss that really happened. I honestly don't know about France's position. Englighten me.


Globalization is coming, right? Soon enough, we'll have ALPA caving in to cabotage as well because it's "inevitable" and once again, you'll see spineless idiots in Herndon saying it's "inevitable" and we have to support it.

Again, you're confusing my personal opinion on globalization with ALPA National. So if cabotage becomes a political reality in the U.S., despite ALPA's attempt to stop it, that's ALPA's fault too? But if they fight it "to the end" then it not ALPA's fault?



Ever wonder about a threat of nationwide suspension of service? Of course, nowadays no one would view it as a credible threat because ALPA is an entity with no principles, backbone or leadership.

OK, so you equate backbone with illegal work stoppages? Got it. Yeah, that's a fine worth 100's of millions of dollars I want to be assessed for. And only entities that participate in illegal work actions are worthy of not being considered "morally bankrupt." Got that, too.


In its current form with its current practices, ALPA is worthless, outdated and irrelevant. Now you know why I wear my ALPA pin upside down.

OK, so because ALPA can't figure out a way to keep its member airline competitive with airlines that pay their guys 1/2 what we earn in pay, ALPA is worthless, outdated, and irrelevant. Because ALPA can't figure out a way to make billions of pension liability go away and restore said pensions, ALPA is all of those things, too. Because ALPA doesn't participate in illegal job actions to protest changes in the marketplace that are pretty much are beyond its control but still fight until its basically a lost cause, you wear your pin upside down.

You know what, in my opinion, ALPA cannot, and in your illegal job action paragraph should not, do any of those things that YOU personally want. You're right, by your definition, ALPA is useless to you. You may as well just take your pin off.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Oh BTW... from a guy who wears his pin upside down, it's not "one issue."

If US Citizen rejected the US gov't for thier "issues" we'd have 100 million one person countries...

Folding on Age 60 sends a loud and clear message that we'll fold everytime the going gets tough. But let's go back a while.

This is politics. Until you learn to be politically effective you will be at odds with the political organization that represents you...

We used to honor other unions striking. Look at Eastern in 89. Was that an ALPA strike, or did ALPA choose to honor IAM strike?

That was a proud moment in our history...

Some things are sacred. I used to think that pensions were sacred. If a pilot worked for 30 years and right in his sunset years, ALPA agrees to terminate this pilot's pension leaving this guy with miserable $2300/month, where is honor in that? What about a guy who already retired?

ALPA pilots.. your fellow crew room inhabitants voted for those concessions.

Where is this "defending the profession" LEADERSHIP from ALPA National i.e. Duane Woerth stating he will refuse to sign any TA that involves selling out pilots soon to retire and those who have retired? Where is that "ALPA Nuke" that George Hopkins talked about in Flying The Line II? I thought some things were sacred... I was wrong.

If you read FTL, Hopkins clearly shows the ALPA leadership during the Lorenzo era found that a ALPA Nuke or SOS was unworkable. Need a page reference? I'll be happy to provide...

Paycuts... we all took massive paycuts, supposedly to save our airlines. About the only thing we managed to save were managements retirements and trust funds. How is it that we can turn a profit with record fuel prices?
Yet ALPA bent over backwards to sign every concessionary agreement.

No... ALPA members democractically voted for those concessions. During the BK era pilots wanted to save thier jobs not execute an SOS. Blame your fellow pilots....

OK... into the future we go....

Age 60. Instead of fighting to restore pensions, work rules, pay, etc. we agree to work more instead under the same concessionary conditions as before. Oh yeah, it's because it's "inevitable." Maybe, maybe not. Some ICAO countries aren't participating in Age 65. For example, isn't France one of those?

you got it as you said....WE AGREE!

You like Fance....

Globalization is coming, right? Soon enough, we'll have ALPA caving in to cabotage as well because it's "inevitable" and once again, you'll see spineless idiots in Herndon saying it's "inevitable" and we have to support it.

Spineless idiots? You are losing your eloquence. ALPA's effectiveness will be in part to its political effectiveness and ability to create international alliances with all of labor. That effectiveness will be fueled by the membership. Angry guys like you aren't helping...

Have any of them ever stopped and thought about drastic measures?

Ever wonder about a threat of nationwide suspension of service? Of course, nowadays no one would view it as a credible threat because ALPA is an entity with no principles, backbone or leadership.

Until you can convince the leadership, membership and lawyers that a SOS is workable and worth the risks please discontinue the thought. Some of us do not to regress. (vis a vis PATCO)

But let's say ALPA said screw RLA, <insert a cause - pensions, fighting cabotage, etc> is way more important than that... and called a nationwide pilot strike. Just one day SOS would cripple this nation. Yes, we'd take flak and bad rap, but think of the aftermath - if we said we're going to do something, everybody would listen - be it airlines or be it government.

prove "they would listen" Again if your SOS idea is such a great idea then where is the reality of it...?

SOS, National Payscales and Rates are mindless blah blah of the angry ranters. They are the equivilant of canned debate points- unoriginal and outdated.

No amount of PAC money can buy that - ALPA would be standing by its own principles and if it said something - everybody would listen. Unfortunately, you won't see that.

Again.... No one in WashDC cares about Air Line Pilots! NO ONE! The only people that care about pilots are Air Line Pilots minus you. You'd rather self destruct this career then try and understand how it works. Why does it have to be how you think you should understand it. Why can't you simply accept reality for how it is and become effective???

Politics is how it works. The more money we have to influence our message on the Hill the more effective we will be. This is how it is... ALPA didn't make this up.... it is just the reality of the world and our gov't. Your regressive attitute will be in part to our demise. Get on board or switch careers cause some of us are trying and your kicking and screaming is making it more difficult.

Would ALPA be financially bankrupt? Yes.
Would ALPA be ethically and morally bankrupt in the eyes of its members? Not in a million years.

Wow... you want your cake and eat it too....

In its current form with its current practices, ALPA is worthless, outdated and irrelevant.

No, you just don't get it and you'd rather be right and without a Pilot career than get on board with reality...

Now you know why I wear my ALPA pin upside down.

Look on the bright side.... you could read it when you look down at your shoes....

 

[CopilotDoug]

Again.... No one in WashDC cares about Air Line Pilots! NO ONE! ...Politics is how it works.

Rez, you're absolutely correct, No Cares About Airline pilots...

So why should we focus on being politically adept when DC will do what they want to at the end of the day? As you said, no one cares about pilots except pilots.

I am with Freight Dog, it may be old school, but an all out strike would get Management's attention. You can take the RLA and throw it out the window, a law will only have power if the people choose to recognize it. The government isn't going to arrest 60 thousand pilots.

ALPA's current ways will only ensure the trust funds of Management get fatter.

The whole idea of ALPA becoming a global force by "uniting" foreign airlines with domestic airlines is a BIG pipe dream and a wasted effort.

ALPA is not a Union.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Why can't you simply accept reality for how it is and become effective???

Why didn't Edison just accept candles as the only source for illumination?

Come on Rez, I know you want to improve the profession. Hop onboard the bandwagon of tomorrow.

 

[ualdriver]

Hey Rez, how do you multi-quote like that?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, you're absolutely correct, No Cares About Airline pilots...

It is just an observation, not a personal theory....

So why should we focus on being politically adept when DC will do what they want to at the end of the day? As you said, no one cares about pilots except pilots.

There is where you show us that you are pilot. Not politically connected.

I am with Freight Dog, it may be old school, but an all out strike would get Management's attention. You can take the RLA and throw it out the window, a law will only have power if the people choose to recognize it. The government isn't going to arrest 60 thousand pilots.

Guys like you also complain that ALPA is old school and out dated and needs to change. But you want it to STAY old school.

By the way.. what old school are you talking about? When has any RLA union done an SOS. care to discuss PATCO?

Is Al Queda getting what they want? Yes they got some attention, but after 9/11 the US didn't say "Wow, we didn't realize that our Foreign policy was so unliked. Thanks for destroying the WTC and pentagon. Now, please provide us an Al Qeda wish list so we can change our policy."

ALPA's current ways will only ensure the trust funds of Management get fatter.

Explain? Please include global market forces so beloved by Free market Air Line Pilot capitalist...

The whole idea of ALPA becoming a global force by "uniting" foreign airlines with domestic airlines is a BIG pipe dream and a wasted effort.

No.. foreign unions... Can you define the acronym IFALPA?

ALPA is not a Union.

Without your particpation it is not....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why didn't Edison just accept candles as the only source for illumination?

Why don't members come to LEC meetings to work with the officers they elected.

Come on Rez, I know you want to improve the profession. Hop onboard the bandwagon of tomorrow.

Glad to. But we need to work together. Will you help?

 

[Freight Dog]

Hey Rez, how do you multi-quote like that?

Take the part you want to quote and before that type [qoute] put your quoted test here, then close out the quotes like this [/qoute], then type your answer. When you want to quote again, use the same format.

(misspelled on purpose to show you the example)

As for the other issues... we agree to disagree.

You really did make me chuckle with the notion that management thanks me for wearing my pin upside down. Thank you for that. How little do you know...

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Deleted......... Not worth the trouble

 

[Dumb Pilot]

One that stands up when bullied instead of rolling over. How many times did pilot groups cave when threatened with bankruptcy over the last 5 years or regionals accepted substandard agreements to get bigger or more airplanes?

One that protects all of its memebers interests (J4J program at US Air WOs)

ALPA is at a crossroads and major changes need to take place. A good place to start would be fragmenting the regionals off to get rid of the conflict of interest. You could still share resources in medical, certificate action, safety, etc.. but barganing should be separate. Either that or come up with a way to resolve disputes internally effectively.

Do you have any other questions ualdriver?

Because most pilots think Unionism is a spectator sport.

Members don't participate because we DON'T believe. It is lack of leadership and results that have driven folks away but like a typical ALPA jarhead you are diconnected from that fact and turn around and blame the membership.

 

[d328pilot]

Why don't members come to LEC meetings to work with the officers they elected.

What other union's members are away for 4 day trips? If I have a meeting on a day off (1 of 2), and you expect me to drive or commute in for an LEC meeting (and be away from family), you better damn well make sure my time is spent well and make sure I feel that my presence there means something. Right now, the perception is that ALPA doesnt care what its members think, therefore, why waste a day off to show up?

Again, a failure of the LEADERSHIP.

 

[d328pilot]

Glad to. But we need to work together. Will you help?

Rez, I believe your intentions are good, but you are preaching to the wrong group. The leaders and leadership method have to change first before the members will come around.