DELTA vs SWA from another thread....

[Howard Hughes]

Unless things have dramatically changed at Mother Delta for bottom feeder pilots (read: junior guys), I don't know how you can make that statement. When I was an ATL M88B back in 2005, 4-5 legs a day was pretty normal for us. We were in and out of ATL all day and night. While we may have had 45-55 min turns, they were eaten up by pulling into A-1, and going out on D-35 in ATL. Those BHM and JAN layovers were really great too.

BTW, what is the Kracker Kremlin telling new-hires for length of time to upgrade to the left seat? This hasn't been talked about very much by you, or the General.

I think its fair to say things have changed since you were last at Delta. They have done a top to bottom analysis and improved and continue to improve many areas of the operation. Could an MD-88 pilot still have a bad schedule? You bet! Overall though from what I know the trend is a positive one. To my knowledge on the last bid, which was a small one, there were 120 openings in ATL for MD88 F.O. alone so there is considerable movement. New hires are still getting the 76. A guy can move up the ranks pretty quickly now if he is willing to stay on the most junior equipment (MD88) or he can go to the 2 leg days on the 757/767 in a reasonable amount of time.

Regarding upgrade, if this age 65 rule goes into effect, and every indication seems to be that it will, a person hired today at Delta and SWA would probably upgrade about the same time. The Delta guy may even upgrade faster if Delta grows to fill the 3000 pilot deficit left after massive retirements post BK. Even if this regrowth is minimal, it's clear Delta is aggressively pursuing international growth, which will cause movement. Every indication is that SWA will slow aircraft deliveries due to a saturated domestic market. Just my opinion and YMMV.

 

[Howard Hughes]

Those beginning with SWA now will not be flying the B-737 at the end of their career.

Within this year SWA will announce an order for B-787's. You heard it here first.

That would be really interesting if they did but for right now I would characterize this as wishful thinking.

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/busi...lines_wants_to_add_international_service.html

Posted on Fri, May. 11, 2007
var partnerID=165936; var _hb=1; window.onerror=function(){clickURL=document.location.href;return true;} if(!self.clickURL) clickURL=parent.location.href; email this
print this
reprint or license this


Southwest Airlines wants to add international service

By Tom Belden

Inquirer Staff Writer

In a few years, Southwest Airlines could make Philadelphia International Airport a key connecting point for a type of customer it doesn't have now - travelers headed to Europe, its chief executive officer says.
But Gary C. Kelly, in an interview here yesterday, said Southwest had a more immediate need: the four additional gates in the airport's Terminal E that it has been promised, so it can add domestic flights.
Southwest, the airport's No. 2 carrier in passengers behind US Airways Group Inc., has never flown outside this country, so it is making a careful study of how to offer international service to Canada, Latin America, the Caribbean and Europe, Kelly said.
Southwest itself probably would not operate the international flights, instead forming a partnership with another airline with overseas experience, said Kelly, who was in town to give an address Wednesday to a gathering sponsored by Temple University's School of Tourism and Hospitality Management.
Both Philadelphia and Baltimore-Washington International Airport would be logical places for Southwest to "code-share" with an international carrier, meaning that both airlines could sell single tickets that provide for connections between the two, Kelly said.
Southwest now has a code-share agreement with ATA Airlines Inc., linking passengers at Chicago Midway Airport, but ATA is not the only airline with which it could form a partnership for international travel, starting in about two years, he said. US Airways has a similar code-share deal with United Airlines, and other carriers have hundreds of such agreements with one another.
On the domestic front, Southwest cannot say where or when it may add flights from Philadelphia because it is waiting for Delta Air Lines Inc. to move out of four gates next to those Southwest already has in Terminal E.
"The last thing we want to do to our customers is promise flights that we can't deliver," he said.
Delta is scheduled to vacate its Terminal E space by Oct. 15, said Charles J. Isdell, the city's aviation director. It will move to Terminal A-East.
Southwest now has 66 flights a day to 18 cities from Philadelphia, and it has to split its operations between the Terminal E gates and four in Terminal D. The airline, which started flying to Philadelphia three years ago, carries 17 percent of the passengers who start or end a trip at the airport.
"We want to be here, and we're trying to make it work," he said.
Kelly spent most of the hour-long interview talking about a detailed process Southwest has undertaken to find ways to increase revenue while trying to cope with a 25 percent rise in its costs - mostly because of high oil prices - over the last four to five years.
While Southwest still is strong financially and has one of the industry's best reputations for customer service, some Wall Street analysts have recently criticized it for lagging other carriers in revenue growth in the first quarter. Jamie Baker of J.P. Morgan Securities Inc. described it in a research note last month as "a growth story comes to a close."
Kelly said Southwest's study of the best way to offer international service is only one of several efforts to increase revenue, including offering in-flight wireless Internet access for a fee, using its Web site to sell services or products other than its own tickets, and offering assigned seating.
Airline analysts "as a group are preoccupied with quarterly earnings," he said. "As a group, they don't seem to know the airline industry's history very well. It's cyclical, and it's a discretionary product, and you run into these inexplicable soft patches."
Southwest's long-range planning for increasing revenue started long before the last quarter and will take several years to complete, which is in keeping with the history of the Dallas-based company, Kelly said.
Southwest has never operated like other airlines, and it has no intention of changing that, he said.
The airline has no assigned seating and flies its planes for more hours per day than most others. It has taken years to build its fleet, boost the capabilities of its Web site, and expand the number of cities it serves.
"There is an impatience on Wall Street for change," Kelly said, "and all of our changes require some construction."
Contact staff writer Tom Belden
at 215-854-2454 or [email protected].

 

[Howard Hughes]

A year and a half ago Southwest said this (prior to SkyBus, Virgin America, and rebounding Legacies (ie Delta):


Etched into aviation history as the puny upstart that turned an industry upside down, Southwest Airlines has been able to offer rock-bottom fares by keeping its costs low. A brilliantly timed and aggressively executed hedging program that locked in low fuel expenses just as the price of oil blasted skyward helped to ensure profitability while other major airlines were reporting huge losses.
Now, Southwest is a victim of its own success. Fast-growing imitators have increased their market share to about 15 percent from about 7 percent in 2000.
To compete in this new low-fare environment, traditional hub-and-spoke carriers such as Continental Airlines and AMR Corp.'s American Airlines have been slashing costs and improving productivity to close the gap with Southwest.
The leaner competitors are also getting meaner, vowing to fight it out against Southwest rather than retreat when the carrier expands into new territory. "There's a big bull's-eye painted on our back," Southwest spokesman Ed Stewart observed recently.
All that is making Gary Kelly's job harder these days. Since taking over as Southwest's chief executive officer in July 2004, the 50-year-old Mr. Kelly has forged a reputation as an aggressive mover and shaker, staking out new territory and launching competitive battles that have rattled the industry.
But the 35-year-old airline is feeling its age, with labor costs rising along with expenses related to maintaining a fleet of more than 400 planes. As its fuel-hedging benefits begin to erode, Mr. Kelly must continue to tighten spending while maintaining the famous warm-and-fuzzy Southwest culture that has generated some of the most loyal employees in the industry. His ability to do that will be severely tested next year when Southwest must negotiate a new labor contract with its pilots union. The airline's financial strength and its long, unbroken string of quarterly profits could make it harder to keep a lid on salaries and benefits.
Mr. Kelly also must continue searching out untapped markets where Southwest can grow profitably, even though that expansion will increasingly put the discounter into head-to-head competition with its low-cost rivals.
In a series of recent interviews, Mr. Kelly revealed his own views on where he sees the industry going and how he intends to make sure Southwest keeps its crown. Excerpts:

WSJ: The airline industry is going through some radical changes. How is Southwest dealing with them?
Mr. Kelly: Fifteen years ago, when we were the only low-cost/low-fare game in town, we could afford to be more patient in developing our markets. There was nobody else in our niche. We had a dramatic cost advantage. We've recognized for five years that that's got to change.
Lots of airlines out there now are competing for the low-cost niche, and admittedly with more-effective cost structures than what we saw 15 years ago. So odds are that someone is going to be successful and be a more formidable competitor to us longer term. That's the future. We're not there yet. We still don't have any meaningful low-cost competition of any size.

WSJ: If all airlines are going to be low-cost, low-fare, doesn't Southwest lose it's distinctive edge?
Mr. Kelly: No, simply because, ultimately, our industry is a customer-service business, and we have the best people to provide that special customer service. Clearly, as the differences between air carriers narrow with respect to fares, we must execute in order to differentiate ourselves. But that's our core advantage. Since the U.S. Department of Transportation began collecting and publishing operating statistics, we've excelled at on-time performance, baggage handling, fewest complaints and fewest canceled flights. Besides, we're still the low-cost producer and the low-fare leader in the U.S. We have no intention of conceding that position.

WSJ: So are you saying Southwest doesn't need to change its game plan?
Mr. Kelly: Change is inevitable. We're a different airline today than we were five years ago, owing to changes in competition, the airports and energy prices. We've deployed new technology, upgraded our fleet and improved our asset utilization and employee productivity. I am certain we will incorporate changes over the next five years as we prepare for dramatically higher energy prices. This industry is brutally competitive. In essence, we compete every day for every single passenger. If our competitors change for the better, then so will we.

WSJ: How will Southwest compete on long-haul flights with other airlines that offer more frills at the same low fares?
Mr. Kelly: I think we have a terrific product, short-haul or long-haul. But, we are carefully evaluating potential product improvements with a nod towards long-haul flights. Every company that comes into a new market or introduces a new product is arguing that it's got the better mousetrap. We know people shop first for fares, and we've got the fares. We have the friendliest fare structure out there -- we don't charge any change fees for customers that change their itineraries. So there's a lot of value that we bring into the market.

WSJ: So far you've avoided head-to-head competition with fast-growing rival discounter JetBlue, but they're getting closer with new flights between Austin (Texas) and New York and Boston. Are you feeling the heat?
Mr. Kelly: As I said earlier, there's no lack of competition. It doesn't matter who they are. They all match our industry-leading low fares. They will fly airplanes. So far, they haven't been able to match our great people. That's our true strength and why I'm confident about the future of Southwest Airlines.

WSJ: Southwest now has some of the highest-paid workers in the industry at a time when it's even more important to control costs. How does this bode for next year's labor talks?
Mr. Kelly: It's true, our employees are well-paid. They've produced the most efficient, most profitable airline with the best customer service, and they deserve to share the wealth. It is not, however, our objective to be the "highest paying" airline. That's a foolhardy goal that pins you to a potentially dumb competitor -- and, there are some! Going forward, our pay, as always, will be a function of our profitability, which is based on our ability to keep our costs low. If our competitors reduce their wages such that it jeopardizes our low-cost position, that would be a problem that we would have to face up to in one form or other. If fuel prices rise to a level that renders us unprofitable: same thing. Our people know what the airline-industry environment is like. I'm confident they will do what it takes to keep Southwest on top.

 

[Howard Hughes]

Another way for prospective SWA/DELTA pilots to look at this equation is; even as attractive as SWA's payrates are right now, it would only take a 20% pay increase and Delta Pilots are suddenly the highest paid pilots in the U.S.A. (this includes Cargo haulers). Not saying this is what Delta pilots will push for although American Pilots are asking for a 30% raise right now. Delta pilots will be careful this time, me thinks to make pay rates sustainable.

Twenty percent more per hour also makes top 737 pay at Delta higher than that at Southwest. If Delta meets its operating profit targets, which I'm told are conservative based on fuel prices, ask yourself, who stands the best chance to improve their position in pay, the domestic guys or international players relative to the rest of the industry? Keep in mind, Delta rates are bottomed after over 40% paycuts but now the top managers are predicting large operating profits (over four billon $ total in the next three years). My personal belief is that the operating profit predictions are more than just "hype the stock" predictions as some have said, Delta knowing that if they were to significantly underperform expectations that tactic would do more harm than good to the stock price. I think Delta has cut enough fat they are confident in making money baring another 911 and international with cost effective domestic feed is the key. SWA is pushing up against rebounding, leaner Legacies (NWA comes out next month) and more LCC's that have read Herbs book a dozen times and have extraordinary sums of money to push into the domestic market. Its going to get interesting, just not sure SWA will be able to do what they have always done.

 

[momalley81]

Another way for prospective SWA/DELTA pilots to look at this equation is; even as attractive as SWA's payrates are right now, it would only take a 20% pay increase and Delta Pilots are suddenly the highest paid pilots in the U.S.A. (this includes Cargo haulers).

For B-777 Captains yes that would be the case. But there are very very very few B-777 Captains at Delta. As for the rest of the fleet that would NOT be the case.

A 20% Payraise fleet wide would still mean the narrowbody pilots are paid below SWA. A 20% Raise for a DAL B-737-800 Captain means they are making $181 an hour. Still less than a 12 year SWA Captain.

 

[CF34-3B1]

Here's the kind of trip a junior (200ish out of 250ish) guy like me gets in our most senior base.

Day 1:
DAL - STL (50 min turn, the worst part of the trip)
STL - TPA (25 min turn)
TPA - FLL (19 hrs on the beach) Total duty day 7:35

Day 2:
FLL - BNA (25 min turn. Plenty of time to run into the terminal for pasta w/ pesto sauce)
BNA - LAS (17 hr layover) Total duty day 7:35

Day 3:
LAS - SAT (25 min turn)
SAT - DAL Home by 1500.

Whew, man I'm exhausted!

The horror, the horror........

 

[General Lee]

For B-777 Captains yes that would be the case. But there are very very very few B-777 Captains at Delta. As for the rest of the fleet that would NOT be the case.

A 20% Payraise fleet wide would still mean the narrowbody pilots are paid below SWA. A 20% Raise for a DAL B-737-800 Captain means they are making $181 an hour. Still less than a 12 year SWA Captain.

Supposedly (I have to say that now), that will NOT be the case. (just a rumor, a good one!) An announcement could be forthcoming soon.

And the pay rate at SWA is thanks to us. It may take awhile to get it back for the 738, but we also have 120 757s, 60+ 767s, 20 764s, and CURRENTLY 8 777s, with 787s possibly in the mix too. A lot of people could be getting raises soon, and not have to go to MAF.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Here's the kind of trip a junior (200ish out of 250ish) guy like me gets in our most senior base.

Day 1:
DAL - STL (50 min turn, the worst part of the trip)
STL - TPA (25 min turn)
TPA - FLL (19 hrs on the beach) Total duty day 7:35

Day 2:
FLL - BNA (25 min turn. Plenty of time to run into the terminal for pasta w/ pesto sauce)
BNA - LAS (17 hr layover) Total duty day 7:35

Day 3:
LAS - SAT (25 min turn)
SAT - DAL Home by 1500.

Whew, man I'm exhausted!

The horror, the horror........

That sounds great. I also know that a lot of your DAL trips do have 6 leg days, with AMA, MAF, LBB, HOU, CRP, HRL, flights too included. My buddy from OAK does a lot of "Califonia Shuffle" trips with 5 or more legs a day, going through LAS, over to ONT, up to SMF, over to PDX, then onto GEG. He says he sees SNA a lot, and usually a couple times each of the days he flies there. He said it can really tire him out. I am not making this up. The last day of his previous 4 day trip was LAX--PHX--SNA--SMF--SNA--OAK.

Not every trip of yours is tough probably, but you have very productive trips, which can be good and bad. To me, very productive means lots of legs or flying to the max, which means exhaustion. I prefer 1 or 2 legs a day, and somewhere tropical in the Winter, and cool in the Summer (ANC). IF you like SWA, great, but not everyone wants that type of flying, and that is what a lot of SWA pilots can't believe.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Widow's Son]

You surrendered your retirement in the last war. What do you have to surrender for the next war?
Stress is what is ultimately fatiguing and job security is the ultimate quality of life.
UNFORTUNATELY, there are a lot of pilots in our industry, especially those who Don't Ever Lose That Attitude, who are one Middle Eastern tussle away from cratering. I would find that stressful in a way that a few first class meals and fancy euro hotels aren't going to mitigate.
At least when you're sitting 20 back in the conga line at ATL making jokes about the little "AirTran" guy ahead of you, you might cut him some slack since he's going to be higher paid than you and could very well be interviewing you for a job someday.

 

[General Lee]

You surrendered your retirement in the last war. What do you have to surrender for the next war?
Stress is what is ultimately fatiguing and job security is the ultimate quality of life.
UNFORTUNATELY, there are a lot of pilots in our industry, especially those who Don't Ever Lose That Attitude, who are one Middle Eastern tussle away from cratering. I would find that stressful in a way that a few first class meals and fancy euro hotels aren't going to mitigate.
At least when you're sitting 20 back in the conga line at ATL making jokes about the little "AirTran" guy ahead of you, you might cut him some slack since he's going to be higher paid than you and could very well be interviewing you for a job someday.

Did you know what we got in return for the loss of the pension? We did very well. Do you have an actual "pension" at Southwest? No. We got huge checks and also filled our 401Ks to the max allowed for last year and this year ($44,000 each year), than got checks for the rest. We also will be getting ANOTHER check soon for the actual pension dump, and that will probably fill up the 2008 401K amount, plus another check we can cash. We also get an 11% raise minimum this year because the company still has to give us our 9% DC fund match and our 2% match for the 401K in cash now, since our 401K limit was reached this year. And the retired guys also got some of their money back, since Delta gave them an $880 million claim in BK, and the PBGC also got almost a 100% claim on the money they were owed, so many of our retired guys will still get large checks each month.

To sum it up, we got great checks, we got 11% raises for the year, and 2300 Captains left, menaing anyone still here who was "stressed out" suddenly got an upgrade to a widebody, supplementing their pay more. The guys I fly with gained huge seniority, and seem to like it now. You need to quit stressing yourself. And I love your Airtran comment. I think we have done very well in BK cleaning the cob webs out, and now we are able to compete a lot better. I think other airlines need to watch out. And, if that guy wants to interview here, he is welcome.


Bye Bye--General Lee