ALPA Age 65 Vote

[Furloughed80]

https://www.ballotpoint.com/spalpa

Just in case you have not voted and still want to. The web-based survey will be open until May 10.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

how many will particapte this time? A whopping 40%?? Minority Rules baby!!

 

[Falconjet]

Why bother to participate when the "leaders" have already made up their minds?

FJ

 

[AlbieF15]

just because....the more votes we have the more we can at least say we told them so...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why bother to participate when the "leaders" have already made up their minds?

FJ

You must have follwership to have leadership. You may not like the way the leadership is going and if so then the follwership must speak up.

If only a minority particapte again, in the Age60 survey, then the leadership has cart blanc and there is nothing the vocal few can say.....


Your issue is with the apathetic members not the leadership....

 

[PCL_128]

If only a minority particapte again, in the Age60 survey, then the leadership has cart blanc and there is nothing the vocal few can say.....

Oh, I've got lots to say. For one thing, we did a random phone polling of over 1,000 members. This is the most accurate way to measure the sentiment of the membership. I can't say what the results were, because they haven't been officially released yet, but I will say that the membership's opinion of Age-60 is unchanged.

Also, your assertion that the leadership has cart blanc is ridiculous. While I certainly want as many members to participate as possible, having low participation doesn't give the leadership the ability to just ignore the results. When only 5% of the membership participates in an LEC election, do we ignore the results because only a "minority" participated? Of course not. You use the results of the members that did get off their butts and vote. This is no different.

And for anyone that's interested, the vote on the Executive Council to propose a change to the ALPA Age-60 policy was not unanimous. One member of the EC refused to vote for this abortion.

 

[Falconjet]

Rez: The poll isn't even done yet but they've made up their mind. You can't have followership (as you put it) without leadership.

The chicken and the egg. I vote that the leaders show some integrity and honor and then I will follow them. Until then no way. They have to lead.

Your rah rah line is growing very tired. You want to "follow" these guys off the cliff, go right ahead.

FJ

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Oh, I've got lots to say. For one thing, we did a random phone polling of over 1,000 members. This is the most accurate way to measure the sentiment of the membership. I can't say what the results were, because they haven't been officially released yet, but I will say that the membership's opinion of Age-60 is unchanged.

So the Titiantic is going down and the membership wants to discuss deck chair arrangement and tomorrow nights dinner menu. Got it.

Also, your assertion that the leadership has cart blanc is ridiculous. While I certainly want as many members to participate as possible, having low participation doesn't give the leadership the ability to just ignore the results. When only 5% of the membership participates in an LEC election, do we ignore the results because only a "minority" participated? Of course not. You use the results of the members that did get off their butts and vote. This is no different.

Oh.. you are talking a majority of the minority... Sounds like a real responsible membership... we've got here....

And for anyone that's interested, the vote on the Executive Council to propose a change to the ALPA Age-60 policy was not unanimous. One member of the EC refused to vote for this abortion.

So one guy wants to talk about creme brulee and deck chair arrangement. That certainly is his right.

Don't get me wrong.. It is not that I am pro Age65. I am pro pragmatism. You can argure that the crew isn't fixing the gaping hole in the side of Titantic......... but that fact is life is going to change.


That is like the FA calling you up and saying, "We want you to restart that uncontained damaged engine and continue on to our destination".

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez: The poll isn't even done yet but they've made up their mind. You can't have followership (as you put it) without leadership.

I am curious as to how many have particpated with three days left to go. Do you think it will be more or less than the 1/3 of last time?

The chicken and the egg. I vote that the leaders show some integrity and honor and then I will follow them. Until then no way. They have to lead.

No- they are doing what you want them to do. A task that is of the vocal minority and unworkable.

They are leading. They are saying the gash in the hull is not workable. The Age 60 ship will sink. It is no longer a matter of if, but when. We can start saving as many lives as possible or we can disregard that duty in a futile attempt to fix the unworkable.

Your rah rah line is growing very tired. You want to "follow" these guys off the cliff, go right ahead.

FJ

Off of a cliff? Not sure about that. I don't think a change to age 60 is going to be as appocolyptic as many fear. In addition, can the FX guys negotiate their own retirement age? That to me would be something worth exploring.


The only missing link or piece to the puzzle to effectiveness is the apathetic membership. But even in this case it might be better that the membership is silient. A mob freny at 1625 Mass demanding the leadership fix the gaping gash in the side of the ship is just not a possibility.

 

[Flopgut]

Oh, I've got lots to say. For one thing, we did a random phone polling of over 1,000 members. This is the most accurate way to measure the sentiment of the membership. I can't say what the results were, because they haven't been officially released yet, but I will say that the membership's opinion of Age-60 is unchanged.

Also, your assertion that the leadership has cart blanc is ridiculous. While I certainly want as many members to participate as possible, having low participation doesn't give the leadership the ability to just ignore the results. When only 5% of the membership participates in an LEC election, do we ignore the results because only a "minority" participated? Of course not. You use the results of the members that did get off their butts and vote. This is no different.

And for anyone that's interested, the vote on the Executive Council to propose a change to the ALPA Age-60 policy was not unanimous. One member of the EC refused to vote for this abortion.

Wow. Are you talking about the EC vote? THE EC vote? How did it turn out? I'm interested...please tell me more!

 

[Flopgut]

You must have follwership to have leadership. You may not like the way the leadership is going and if so then the follwership must speak up.

If only a minority particapte again, in the Age60 survey, then the leadership has cart blanc and there is nothing the vocal few can say.....


Your issue is with the apathetic members not the leadership....

Rez: At the organized labor level we are at here, there will be can be no follwership without *inspired* leadership. This is the major leagues and ALPA is very expensive representation. We did not somehow enlist in this and they can't give us orders. They need to perform. If age 65 is such a good idea for all of us then they need to inspire us to their vision. And if they can not then it should be abundantly clear that something is a miss at the Circle K.

We don't need more voters just for the sake of votes. We have a pretty good turnout here; certainly enough to fairly guage the pilot group.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez: At the organized labor level we are at here, there will be can be no follwership without *inspired* leadership.

We just had an election for ALPA President and officers. That was the chance to ensure "inspired" leadership. IOW if you want "inspired" leadeership or whatever kind of leadership you want.. then vote them in...

This is the major leagues and ALPA is very expensive representation.

Expensive? I think we have good value for our representation. The problem with your repsresentation is it is seriously lacking. There is no one to represent becuase no one participates. It is like showing up to the stadium and only half of the team shows up to play.

We did not somehow enlist in this and they can't give us orders. They need to perform.

No, the membership needs to perform. With only 41% of the pilots bothering to vote on the second online survey and only three days left it is obvious that apathy reigns.

5% of members go to LEC meetings
and only 1/3 bother to vote for LEC officers.

Yeah there is a leadership problem.. there is no one to lead.

If age 65 is such a good idea for all of us then they need to inspire us to their vision. And if they can not then it should be abundantly clear that something is a miss at the Circle K.

Inspire? Who should they inspire? The three pilots who showed up at the last LEC meeting? And two of them were the LEC Chairman and Vice?

We don't need more voters just for the sake of votes. We have a pretty good turnout here; certainly enough to fairly guage the pilot group.

No our turn out is pretty weak. Maybe you could argue that if the turn out is low then the status quo is fine....

The fact is the sun is setting... that will not change and it is going to happen. So what should your leadership do? Plan for night or fight the setting sun.

 

[El Pobre]

Rez,

Here's my take on it. I voted and am probably in the majority of those that voted which oppose the change to Age 65. But the "leadership" at has already stated that regardless of how the membership votes they are planning on changing the official union policy. Why the @#$% even vote. It's a waste of your and mine union dues if this is the case to even conduct the poll.

This is clearly the problem with closed shop where all pilots are required to be members of the union. Pilots have no recourse to vote with their feet or wallets. Frankly, I am already sick of Prater and his "takin' it back from the next generation" talk that I would gladly quit the union and donate my "union dues" to a charity like St. Judes. But I can't, because I would then lose my job. What impetus does the union leadership have to represent it's membership when there are simply no reprocussions for how they vote.

It's stupid, and I hope that we get rid of this agency shop garbage in our next contract. At least then union leadership will have to consider losing the support and (what they really care about $$$$) from the membership.

It's a very corrupt system
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We're takin' it back...from the next generation" -Capt Prater ALPA president

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Here's my take on it. I voted and am probably in the majority of those that voted which oppose the change to Age 65. But the "leadership" at has already stated that regardless of how the membership votes they are planning on changing the official union policy. Why the @#$% even vote. It's a waste of your and mine union dues if this is the case to even conduct the poll.

If there was no poll then the discontent would turn to conspiracy theory and paranoia.

Again.. a tsunami, being the age60 change, is going to hit. Do you want ALPA to (try to) hold back the tsunami or move the membership to higher ground?

In this case, leadership is protecting the membership from inevitable change, not wasting resources and energy on trying to stop the unstoppable.

This is clearly the problem with closed shop where all pilots are required to be members of the union. Pilots have no recourse to vote with their feet or wallets. Frankly, I am already sick of Prater and his "takin' it back from the next generation" talk that I would gladly quit the union and donate my "union dues" to a charity like St. Judes. But I can't, because I would then lose my job. What impetus does the union leadership have to represent it's membership when there are simply no reprocussions for how they vote.

With only a minority of pilots particpating in this second and first Age 60 poll, LEC elections and attendance, I think your observations are totally out of reality.

It's stupid, and I hope that we get rid of this agency shop garbage in our next contract. At least then union leadership will have to consider losing the support and (what they really care about $$$$) from the membership.

I think FX just went from open shop to closed.

It's a very corrupt system

No, it is a very minority participative system.

 

[Flopgut]

If there was no poll then the discontent would turn to conspiracy theory and paranoia.

Again.. a tsunami, being the age60 change, is going to hit. Do you want ALPA to (try to) hold back the tsunami or move the membership to higher ground?

In this case, leadership is protecting the membership from inevitable change, not wasting resources and energy on trying to stop the unstoppable.



With only a minority of pilots particpating in this second and first Age 60 poll, LEC elections and attendance, I think your observations are totally out of reality.




I think FX just went from open shop to closed.



No, it is a very minority participative system.

Yike!

Rez: That's crazy talk. Forget the exact issue for a second. The union leadership IS NOT doing what the membership wants them to do. The second vote is going to come back as solidly against this as the first (it appears). You're idea that the union is supposed to act in spite of membership's mandate is reckless, systemite facism!

This: let's vote, then do another vote...but before that vote ends decide to move against the membership majority's wishes, because we didn't quite mess with the survey enough...CRAP has to end! It's becoming more like a dicatorship every day. How you don't see that, I've no idea.

 

[regionaltard]

As it concerns ALPA's internal governance this poll has some value, but as it concerns the actual age 65 issue it's about as useful as trying to vote in the french parliamentary elections. The fact that a lot of the Membership understands that has a lot to do with the low level of participation in the survey. The fact that the "leadership" understands that tells me that they might actually be trying to lead rather then squander resources pandering to the desires of a bloc that really needs to just move on.

 

[El Pobre]

It doesn't matter what percentage of pilots vote or don't vote!!! What matters is what is the results of those pilots that do vote.

If only 35% of Americans vote for the president, isn't the guy who gets the majority of that 35% elected president (OK let's not get into electoral college stuff here), although it could apply. We don't sit around and assume that the other 65% would have voted one way or the other.

If people don't care enough to vote, than they shouldn't complain about the outcome. The problem is, is that the leadership say, "well, only 49% of the guys voted, so it's not really a majority, so we are just going to go on our merry way and decide policy however we care to." I'll bet if 10% of pilots stopped paying union dues for 2 months to protest the leaderships unilateral changing of the age 60 policy...they sure would notice (and care).

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yike!

You're telling me! And all of this Age60 talk is small potatoes. Wait till Open Skies hits the membership.

Rez: That's crazy talk. Forget the exact issue for a second. The union leadership IS NOT doing what the membership wants them to do. The second vote is going to come back as solidly against this as the first (it appears). You're idea that the union is supposed to act in spite of membership's mandate is reckless, systemite facism!

Not really. Many if not most pilots seem to think that ALPA can change the monolith that is CapHill. When it comes to Age60 there are allot of players that are interested in the change. Not just pilots and how it will effect them individually. In addition, I am sure there are international politics at play here too.

So we are really dealing with industry, gov't and the international players. To think that this is something that ALPA can control is really niave and reckless.

This: let's vote, then do another vote...but before that vote ends decide to move against the membership majority's wishes, because we didn't quite mess with the survey enough...CRAP has to end! It's becoming more like a dicatorship every day. How you don't see that, I've no idea.

Again.... It is not about stopping age60. It is going to happen. Here are some other things that are going to happen. The sun will set. The tide will rise and fall. The sun will rise. To spend time and energy trying to stop this is reckless.

Basically the leadership is saying to remain a player and effect positive change and limit the impact we are going to work with the changes.

If ALPA fought this tooth and nail and was excluded from the process the end result will be less benefit for the pilots. It is the ol' honey/vinegar trick. In the end, we would have less and of course the pilots would be pissed off. But then ALPA could say "we did exactly as you wanted and fought the (unwinable) fight.

Now that I think about it.. either way the membership is going to be dis-satisifed with the end result.... screwed if you do-screwed if you don't

 

[Falconjet]

Rez: FedEx is now an agency shop, not closed. Not much difference, but that is what it is.

Also, you have obviously already gone over the cliff and hit your head.

Best of luck to you.

FJ

 

[Flopgut]

You're telling me! And all of this Age60 talk is small potatoes. Wait till Open Skies hits the membership.

Rez: Oh Kay?!.....

Wait until open skies hits the membership and, instead of fighting it for the greater good, ALPA convinces guys like you it's going to "happen anyway", while industry, govt and international bodies place a financial windfall device in front of the greedy minority who obscures the truth and: Walla! Open skies gets passed! You don't even realize it, but the fight for open skies, and every other thing we are going to face is right before us: It IS the age 60 debate!

Please remove Bill Hopson from your avatar. I have a feeling if he were alive right now, he'd like to kick you in the seeds!