PCL off the Runway in TVC--no injuries

[xjgearbtch]

don't forget he invented the airplane

 

[TOOL CRIB]

Guys, obviously I don't know if this helped cause the accident, but looking at the temp on the metar, it's possible. If it was above freezing there in the hours before the accident and it had just dropped to 00 in the hour before the accident, that runway could have been icy as the average FI user's heart ;-)

Throw some recent snow on top of it for fun, and you have an ice skating rink. This happened to us once when it was drizzling most of the evening and had the temperature drop to 00 about 45 min before we landed. Luckily we had a long runway and direct headwind, so we didnt notice it until we turned off on the taxiway and almost slid into a snow bank sideways. Braking was nil and we reported it as such. The tower just about crapped their pants. Going about 5-10 kts on the taxi, we would slide a good 15 feet to stop every time. It was about the same time of night as well, 1am or so. No braking action reports were given to us.

 

[Papps]

yeah I feel bad for the crew, overrunning a contaminated runway is one of those accidents/incidents that has always happened and will always happen.

BA reports are crap at alot of airports and you don't know the whole story until after you hit the brakes at 130+knots just to realize that they don't do anything

 

[DCMartin]

Heres what I dont get

Actual landing distance on a RWY contaminated w/ snow plus the 115% additionional FAR requirement (Wet/Low vis) at 46000 lbs is 6480. If there is slush, ice, higher lnding weight, or just a knot above ref the distance goes up. Landing on a 6500 foot runway with these conditions and a little fatigue doesnt seem too smart.

 

[Papps]

6480 looks wrong, but your probably right. with that being said, if you refuse to fly every flight to a runway that isn't 10000feet long when there is a chance of snow and RW contaminant in the forecast the company may find that they don't need you around anymore. Its just one of those bummer incidents that most pilots look at and say, wow that could have been me.

 

[DiverDriver]

Another sound decision at Pinnacle....

How does that statement have anything to do with decision at Pinnacle? I don't work for them. It goes to show that what is reported by ATC is not always what you find at the bottom of the approach.

And someone else posted that BA at the time was reported as GOOD. How the heck can that be since the METARs reported 1/4 mile vis with snow and heavy snow. Sounds like these guys got lead down a bad road.

I have personal experience with TVC tower giving a bad BA report and then when I tried to correct it they tried to give an eroneous report to the following aircraft. I think we need to be looking at airport ops at TVC rather than the crew on this one.

Heck I just had to do my first ever go-around due to getting to minimums and not seeing a runway at PHL. Yah, they were reporting 2500 BKN and the converging 17 mins are about 600 AGL. As Bob Ueker said in "Major League" - "JUUUUST a bit outside."

 

[V-1]

How old was the braking action report? There's not a lot of traffic in or out of that airport at that time of night, and the tower used to close really early there...like 9 or 10 p.m.

Once again, good to hear no one was hurt. Best wishes for the crew as they work with investigators to resolve the questions.

 

[captain dad]

"I wanna be a cowboy baby."

- Kid Rock

 

[DCMartin]

6480 looks wrong, but your probably right. with that being said, if you refuse to fly every flight to a runway that isn't 10000feet long when there is a chance of snow and RW contaminant in the forecast the company may find that they don't need you around anymore. Its just one of those bummer incidents that most pilots look at and say, wow that could have been me.

You bring up a very good point. Whos gonna say no to dispatch.... Lets recap who has ran off a rwy in the last couple years: Pinnacle in MKE, Southwest in MDW, Skywest in CWA, Shuttle America in CLE, and now Pinnacle in TVC. 4 out of 5 of these incidents involved 1/4 +SN reported w/in the previous half hour and contaminated Rwy. Skywest involved standing water contamination.

Air carriers are not required to take into account whether the rwy is contaminated so that extra 15% is only required to be added to the DRY rwy Calc. SO that 6480 is too much, the number out of the AFM is 5635 at Ref + 5, 46000lbs and at SL cont w/ loose snow. With slush or Ice it would go up.

And you are right I would still most likely say yes to dispatch, cause it is legal....

 

[bertengineer]

Heck I just had to do my first ever go-around due to getting to minimums and not seeing a runway at PHL. Yah, they were reporting 2500 BKN and the converging 17 mins are about 600 AGL. As Bob Ueker said in "Major League" - "JUUUUST a bit outside."

6500 hours and FIRST EVER GO AROUND due to weather? Holy SH_T man...I had that at 1200 hours my first week flying the line at AirNet, single pilot in the BE-58 with ice hanging off of the wings

 

[Papps]

lol yeah i get the sarcasm, its fine to say no to dispatch I do it frequently, and have never gotten a call or carpet danced for it, but in the regionals in the winter you are going to be scheduled to fly to airports where the runways arent 3 miles long and the BA reports arent all that new.

You can't refuse to fly for 9 months straight and expect to keep your job (i realize thats not what your suggesting) so you do the best you can with the information that you have and try to CYA.

My point is that it doesnt take a cowboy to overrun, northwest and southwest have done it recently along with everyone else, all it takes is some bad information.

 

[bri5150]

Nevermind...

 

[Oakum_Boy]

A missed approach for weather is highly unlikely. Especially if most of your time is in Cat II or better equipment.

 

[filejw]

Guys a couple of notes from an old timer. First as I think back over the last 30 yrs I can remember that more than one DC9 has gone off the end of 27 in TVC. All with the pretty much same wx conditions.Second two items that were brought up previously on this thread, the time of the BA report and the tail wind.That 5 knot effective tail wind would had me headed to MBS and any BA report more than 15 mins old with heavy snow falling is useless.The rule I used when flying in that crap was On Speed, On the End and In the Middle.Oh ya a little luck helped too.

 

[BLing]

I just wish that people could learn to actually land the CRJ. I am sick of flying with captains that have years of experience in the airplane that float float float and float down the runway, then give it the old three point slam. This is true when I commute on other carriers as well.

I am not saying that this captain made a bad landing, but I'm pretty sure many guys before him have, which could have led to fatigued parts causing the gear to collapse.