New Jetblue pay raise!

[zkmayo]

I think don't caveman or anyone else have a "sense of entitlement", but they are looking around and seeing if their skills can go to a higher bidder. Caveman doesn't "owe" JB (nor does anyone else) a day longer on the property than they want to work there. Why would someone join knowing year 2 or 3 pay was low? First--there has been a lot of discussion in improving those rates. Second--compensation comes in many forms...including profit sharing and stock options. Finally--getting the 121 experience might make folks more marketable to other companies. Checking in for a year then checking out when a better deal comes along doesn't make a pilot a terrible person--it makes them a realistic business person.

A lot of folks are at JB now because JB was the only place they could get hired, and it was better than where they were OR it was good bridge to a later job.

And that...in a nutshell...is the big difference between JB now and 3 years ago. 3 years ago people joined with career aspirations. Now, a lot of folks look at this place as a stepping stone. Caveman (I think) left a job as a CL 65 captain at a place going through some tough times. Now he has a better job (I think). However--nothing says he can't march on to someone else with a little more experience and perspective now, and his stop in JB doesn't make him a terrible guy.

The choice is really up to current management. If they want career guys, then there needs to be some career type pay. Otherwise--folks will jump for better offers. When guys were upgrading at 2 years and making six figures, getting profit sharing, and the stock was on the way up...well...they'd ride the storms. Right now, JB has a great culture, but some real growing pains and a staganting upgrade train. Attrition is only going to go up, not down--until those things change. Chastising folks for looking for better deals is unrealistic.

One final note--and I've said this before--folks who STAY at a carrier should THANK everyone leaving. There is NO better way--even unionization--to send a signal to management that "...it needs to be better..." Every guy who walks over to FDX, CAL, or whereever is putting pressure on the company to make YOUR life better too. If they are senior to you--you move up a notch. If they are junior--its easier now to get your buddies hired. And either way--somebody is having to factor is attrition costs when they determine the next set of pay scales.

I couldnt agree more with everything you said. And Im not criticizing Caveman or others looking to do the same thing and maximize their earnings potential and balancing QOL issues. Everyone has their motivations/perogatives and to each his own. I wish them all the best of luck sincerely. He doesnt owe them anything, I just want people to realize its a that that arguement is a two way street. Youre right--voting with their feet seems to be the one thing JB is starting to listen to since it affects the bottom line. Its an exercise in macronomics ie supply v demand.

 

[zkmayo]

It looks like the way to make money at JB is as an A320 Capt. What are the prospects at an upgrade onto the bus at JB? Probably not very good, since all of the 320 captains are young and won't retire anytime soon, and there are probably many senior bus FOs waiting for any spot that opens up. There are probably E190 Captains that are waiting to move over to the bus left seat eventually too. If you are junior on the bus or E190 as an FO right now, it may take awhile to see that large pay increase. Don't worry, we have some of the same problems here at DL, but we are getting a bunch more 757s this year and some more 777s and 787s eventually. And hey, maybe we will merge (or aquire you or parts of you) and you can bid 767s over here.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Dont you know they train us to not like boeings over here? Ha Ha

Im not going to waste my time worrying about mergers, life's too short and they are more or less out of control of the line pilot. All you can do is make a plan b outside of aviation.

 

[Caveman]

I realize Im wasting my breath here, but here goes. Youre just getting off 1st year pay and youre already complaining about 2nd year pay? Boo frickin hoo is right...didnt you look at the pay scale when you got on here for years 2-10? I just dont get it. Where in the last 11 months has the expectation been created that you would get a pay raise beyond what you signed on for? Not only the expectation, but the entitlement that you are actually "owned" any raise? Reality check: JB is a 7 year old start up, it hasnt been around 35 years or 197 years like SWA/FDX and UPS. Youre not going to make that type of money here nor should you expect to NOW. Year by year pay should come up though. If you want to go work for them, more power to you. Im not saying we all dont deserve more money, we all do. But the last time I looked this is still a very young company that hasnt been very profitable of late.

Im not bashing you or defending the company; I just dont understand the expectations or the sense of entitlement.

You're not wasting your breath but you are missing the point. I did look at the pay scales for years 2-10 and decided that I could tolerate the low FO pay as a tradeoff for a relatively quick upgrade. I chose JetBlue in part because there was the prospect of a pretty quick path to the left seat of the Airbus. The day I showed up for training we announced we were cutting back on deliveries of A320s. That instantly added 2-3 years to the timeline I had in mind for being a lineholder A320 CA.

My expectations for this raise were high because I was told that a review would make us industry standard. We were told twice that a compensation review was in order because in some areas JetBlue was no longer competitive. It was particularly noted that because upgrade times would now be longer our FOs were behind the curve. Two reviews later and I get a dollar an hour raise. The company is seriously delusional if they think $57 for year two and $67 for year three is going to stop the attrition to UPS, FedEx or SWA. After 1st year pay at those airlines you can afford to wait for the upgrade. You can't at JetBlue. People with families can't wait 4-5 years to make a reasonable living. Year 2-4 FO pay at JetBlue has to improve or the high attrition will continue.

I had a pretty good idea of what I was getting into with JetBlue and I'm glad I'm here. There are many things about this company I really like. FO pay isn't one of them. Don't tell me you're going to make it right and then give me a dollar an hour raise. That's BS.

 

[Caveman]

Albie,

Good memory. You pretty much nailed my situation. I also agree with most of your analysis of the situation at JetBlue.

 

[zkmayo]

You're not wasting your breath but you are missing the point. I did look at the pay scales for years 2-10 and decided that I could tolerate the low FO pay as a tradeoff for a relatively quick upgrade. I chose JetBlue in part because there was the prospect of a pretty quick path to the left seat of the Airbus. The day I showed up for training we announced we were cutting back on deliveries of A320s. That instantly added 2-3 years to the timeline I had in mind for being a lineholder A320 CA.

My expectations for this raise were high because I was told that a review would make us industry standard. We were told twice that a compensation review was in order because in some areas JetBlue was no longer competitive. It was particularly noted that because upgrade times would now be longer our FOs were behind the curve. Two reviews later and I get a dollar an hour raise. The company is seriously delusional if they think $57 for year two and $67 for year three is going to stop the attrition to UPS, FedEx or SWA. After 1st year pay at those airlines you can afford to wait for the upgrade. You can't at JetBlue. People with families can't wait 4-5 years to make a reasonable living. Year 2-4 FO pay at JetBlue has to improve or the high attrition will continue.

I had a pretty good idea of what I was getting into with JetBlue and I'm glad I'm here. There are many things about this company I really like. FO pay isn't one of them. Don't tell me you're going to make it right and then give me a dollar an hour raise. That's BS.

Excellent points, I agree with virtually all of it. I now have a better understanding of your frustration. I wish you ( and us all) good luck.

 

[instructordude]

The new pay scale doesn't give me a 20% raise for year 2, it gives me a dollar an hour raise. I was already going to get $56 and change, now I'm going to get $57 and change. Whoopty fricking do.

Don't forget about the premium pay though. It is a pretty good deal from everything I've heard.

 

[mannyaplus11]

Don't forget about the premium pay though. It is a pretty good deal from everything I've heard.

You can't depend on premium pay. I have been here 1.5 years, sit reserve in LGB and have only broken guarantee ONCE.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

You can't depend on premium pay. I have been here 1.5 years, sit reserve in LGB and have only broken guarantee ONCE.

March was the 4th month in over 3 years that I've made over 75 hours. I made 76 hours.

 

[elag777]

March was the 4th month in over 3 years that I've made over 75 hours. I made 76 hours.

Stop bidding min sched!:erm:

 

[8vATE]

Bavarian ABHORS me!

I am happy, had a great day with the wife and kids.

One of the reasons I abhore you is because you pretend to know me, my background, my current situation or my experience. You never tire of throwing those barbs out there and in every case you are wrong. As usual I will not return the favor. Apparently a challenge towards jb is perceived as a challenge towards you. I think you are the one that needs to lighten up.

Wow..

You ought to look at yourself in the mirror and read some of YOUR posts.

I'll make my point for you Bavarian ... short and sweet.
I tried to be polite.

Your SARCASM... Your negativitity will WEAR on people.
Over time.... it becomes a real depressing and somewhat self promoting thing.
At work.. it will be complain, complain, complain.

You've heard it from others.... I'm just calling you on it.

My personal experience (and a lot of others who have worked at other carriers) deems its not warranted or justified.

I'm not ignoring the issues hear at JetBlue.... I'm just being rational, pragmatic and trying to be constructive. If you want to turn JetBlue in to a Mesa metality workplace, you will not find much support for it.

Yes I'm a Captain... and all that means is I was looking for and got the job before you. No entitlement or attitude. I've been an F/O at three different carriers for over 13 years.

So if you want to abhor me... go ahead. I'm not backing down from YOUR barbs at a DECENT place to work. And it will get better if people like yourself don't drag it down.

 

[8vATE]

You can't depend on premium pay. I have been here 1.5 years, sit reserve in LGB and have only broken guarantee ONCE.

Technically, you're breaking a lineholders guarantee EVERY month when you sit reserve.
With the 5 hours of premium pay.

LGB was opened primarily as a Quality of Life base for the West Coasties.
Between the lack of a critical mass of short haul, medium haul, slot limited and curfew restraints, LGB will never grow and see the dynamics that make it a super efficient domicile.
I think the leadership kind of regrets it in some ways since people are unhappy with the productivity. Another fine example of JetBlue trying to do something good and it has somewhat lost its way and become a detriment.

Maybe some of these reserve enhancements will help that are in the pipeline.

Still doesn't help your situation but may explain some of the background and history of the story for others.

BTW, Some of the guys from the class in January are lineholders in JFK for April.

 

[IronCityBlue]

Qol 101

Technically, you're breaking a lineholders guarantee EVERY month when you sit reserve.
With the 5 hours of premium pay.

LGB was opened primarily as a Quality of Life base for the West Coasties.
Between the lack of a critical mass of short haul, medium haul, slot limited and curfew restraints, LGB will never grow and see the dynamics that make it a super efficient domicile.
I think the leadership kind of regrets it in some ways since people are unhappy with the productivity. Another fine example of JetBlue trying to do something good and it has somewhat lost its way and become a detriment.

Maybe some of these reserve enhancements will help that are in the pipeline.

Still doesn't help your situation but may explain some of the background and history of the story for others.

BTW, Some of the guys from the class in January are lineholders in JFK for April.

With very, very few exceptions (though there are some) small bases don't have the trip quality/variety as large bases do. New bases don't have the trip quality/variety that established bases do. New airplane and dying airplane schedules are inferior to the schedules for an established and growing fleet. Its amazing the folks who don't get that. My favorite are the FLL FA's whining about how they don't get to overnight in as many cities as the JFK crews do. Like we're running a travel agency just for them or something. Some bases are little more than "coverage" bases with some niche flying as part of the regular schedule. We could open up the coveted MCO base tomorrow and the very next day guys would be complaining about the trips not being as good as NY's.

 

[capt. megadeth]

WTF over? all this done without spending a penny on worthless dues!
You just opened your mouth and removed all doubt that you are....

So what are you saying? That raise is good?

 

[J32driver]

So what are you saying? That raise is good?

What... more money per hour is bad? A 7% increase in company paid retirement money is bad? Over the past couple of months, some of our seats have seen as much as 13% raise in hourly pay. Is that a bad thing?

Do we have more to accomplish? Oh yeah! But the company fixed the #1 gripe... retirement. They massaged the rest a bit. And guess what... the company intends to do this review every year. Which means in another 8 months, we'll tackle something else.

Overall... yeah... I'd say this is a good thing. I'm not at all naive though. I know that the pressure of loosing pilots and an impending union drive is great motivation for the company. But overall... yeah... I'd rate this as a good thing.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Wow..

You ought to look at yourself in the mirror and read some of YOUR posts.

I'll make my point for you Bavarian ... short and sweet.
I tried to be polite.

Your SARCASM... Your negativitity will WEAR on people.
Over time.... it becomes a real depressing and somewhat self promoting thing.
At work.. it will be complain, complain, complain.

You've heard it from others.... I'm just calling you on it.

My personal experience (and a lot of others who have worked at other carriers) deems its not warranted or justified.

I'm not ignoring the issues hear at JetBlue.... I'm just being rational, pragmatic and trying to be constructive. If you want to turn JetBlue in to a Mesa metality workplace, you will not find much support for it.

Yes I'm a Captain... and all that means is I was looking for and got the job before you. No entitlement or attitude. I've been an F/O at three different carriers for over 13 years.

So if you want to abhor me... go ahead. I'm not backing down from YOUR barbs at a DECENT place to work. And it will get better if people like yourself don't drag it down.

Well, let's just agree to disagree.

One thing we agree on, jb IS a decent company. Kinda like a decent girlfriend. She'll get you the beer, but she won't pour it in a glass and you sure as hell ain't gonna get some chips. Or in terms that Sailpilot and I prefer: she doesn't swallow. Been saying that all along.

I am not trying to turn jb into anything. One of my rules in the cockpit (despite the little power I have as an FO): don't talk about the company. There is nothing worse than being stuck for four days with a fat former Dash 8 FO/Captain who spouts off about jb, be it pro or con. So I just sit and listen in silence and pull out a magazine, I mean FOM, and start reading.

As for me putting the truth out here, I think we as jb pilots owe it to those few who keep trying to work with us. They need to know WHY we are selling planes, WHY are operations continue to stumble, WHY pilots are leaving etc. There's nothing wrong with putting the why out there. They need to make an informed decision by weighing the positives and negatives (including the recent retirement improvements, the new pay raises, the new personnel changes), the future of jb and the projected state of the airline industry (as much as one can project).

I sincerely hope I am a 320 Captain here in a few years with that same warm and fuzzy you have. The fence coming down in the fall will obviously have a great impact on that desire. But that being said, it would sure be hard to pass up an interview and offer at luv. Even a current Captain such as yourself should understand that.

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

I have to say that reading this thread I am all busted up inside hearing that there is trouble in paradise at JBLU.

I think you need a change at the top. My services are always available. If you don't want me, I heard this guy is available

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Smith

Good luck trash pickers, and watch out for those icebergs!

 

[J32driver]

Good luck trash pickers, and watch out for those icebergs!

Come on Frank... I expect a bit more wit than that from you!

 

[instructordude]

I was looking at the new pay rates at Jetblue. If I upgrade i will only be making about 15K less per year than a Jetblue 190 Capt. Suprising.

 

[jbvt]

I was looking at the new pay rates at Jetblue. If I upgrade i will only be making about 15K less per year than a Jetblue 190 Capt. Suprising.

Use it to go back to school to learn how to spell, scab.

 

[instructordude]

Use it to go back to school to learn how to spell, scab.

I no how to spell big guy.

 

[Skyboy722]

I no how to spell big guy.

Some funny $hit right there!

 

[Spectre]

I don't have a problem with the first year pay. It's better than most. The problem is the quick upgrade to 320 CA has disappeared and now the new guys have to try and make a living on FO pay for 4-5 years. If someone can get hired at SWA, FedEx, or UPS they can make a LOT more in their second and subsequent years than they can at JetBlue. A LOT more.

The new pay scale doesn't give me a 20% raise for year 2, it gives me a dollar an hour raise. I was already going to get $56 and change, now I'm going to get $57 and change. Whoopty fricking do. Also, no retro for me because I'm just finishing my first year so the only bonus I get is to keep my current rate.

If they really want to stop the bleeding of 1st and 2nd year FOs leaving they are gonna have to do better on year 2/3 pay. Year one we're in good shape compared to everyone else. Then the wheels fall off. That's why people are leaving. It isn't the culture or lack thereof. Show me the money.

If you really want to retain your new hires, I think JB management should have given the A320 Captains a raise. Here's why. Upgrade at JB even to the A320 Captain is still less time than at any other major. New hires will want to stay for the future of attaining those higher Captain rates (ie $200/hour). This is the simple reason why people leave their Regional Captain job paying $80K to goto a legacy and make less pay in the right seat as a new hire...All in hopes of making more money when you move to the left seat. That's how you solve attrition.

Regardless of what you think, FOs can be easily replaced. Only a handful of A320 Captains have left JetBlue. From management's perspective, JetBlue can run a safe airline as long as the Captains stay. FO's with 500 hours total time can fly with these Captains and you'll still have a safe operation. Where JetBlue has gone wrong is to split wage increases between different pilot positions/equipment. What should have been done as with other airlines is to determine the base pay for your highest paying position (A320 Captain). You then take a percentage of that pay and apply it to the other crew positions. Thus, when JetBlue gives a raise, all the crew positions will get the same percentage increase.

 

[Spectre]

You can't depend on premium pay. I have been here 1.5 years, sit reserve in LGB and have only broken guarantee ONCE.

You live in LGB by choice and are sitting on reserve by choice. With 1.5 years at JB, you can hold a decent line at JFK, fly lots of hours and make decent pay by breaking through min guarantee. No sympathy for you.

 

[Splert]

If you really want to retain your new hires, I think JB management should have given the A320 Captains a raise. Here's why. Upgrade at JB even to the A320 Captain is still less time than at any other major.

Yet at other airlines you don't have to upgrade to make a living and fund a retirement and have QOL will wanting to have QOL after an upgrade.

New hires will want to stay for the future of attaining those higher Captain rates (ie $200/hour). This is the simple reason why people leave their Regional Captain job paying $80K to goto a legacy and make less pay in the right seat as a new hire...All in hopes of making more money when you move to the left seat. That's how you solve attrition.

New hires want QOL and decent pay. jetBlue offers zero QOL to new hires and 7 years or more before they would break even. Remember a new hire still have to recoup the money they did not earn by taking a job a jetBlue. Then a new hire would have to suck up JFK for most of the rest of their career. Making less than what a 7th year CA at jetBlue makes isn't worth the paying of dues all over again. Now, if growth crew bases where in other part of the country where they could afford to live with the family then all bets are off.

Regardless of what you think, FOs can be easily replaced.

Patience, you are about to eat your words. This summer's fly is in the hands of those you think are so easy to replace. I only takes a second or minute or two to quit and then 3-4 months to hire and train.

Only a handful of A320 Captains have left JetBlue. From management's perspective, JetBlue can run a safe airline as long as the Captains stay. FO's with 500 hours total time can fly with these Captains and you'll still have a safe operation.

If jetBlue management really thinks this way then you better start looking for a new job. CA are not perfect and Saftey is certainly not the number one value.

Where JetBlue has gone wrong is to split wage increases between different pilot positions/equipment. What should have been done as with other airlines is to determine the base pay for your highest paying position (A320 Captain). You then take a percentage of that pay and apply it to the other crew positions. Thus, when JetBlue gives a raise, all the crew positions will get the same percentage increase.

Where jetBlue has gone wrong it base 90% of the airline where 99.99% of its crews (FAs included) don't want to ever live or could afford to live.

Good Day

 

[IronCityBlue]

slightly myopic IMO

If you really want to retain your new hires, I think JB management should have given the A320 Captains a raise. Here's why. Upgrade at JB even to the A320 Captain is still less time than at any other major. New hires will want to stay for the future of attaining those higher Captain rates (ie $200/hour). This is the simple reason why people leave their Regional Captain job paying $80K to goto a legacy and make less pay in the right seat as a new hire...All in hopes of making more money when you move to the left seat. That's how you solve attrition.

Regardless of what you think, FOs can be easily replaced. Only a handful of A320 Captains have left JetBlue. From management's perspective, JetBlue can run a safe airline as long as the Captains stay. FO's with 500 hours total time can fly with these Captains and you'll still have a safe operation. Where JetBlue has gone wrong is to split wage increases between different pilot positions/equipment. What should have been done as with other airlines is to determine the base pay for your highest paying position (A320 Captain). You then take a percentage of that pay and apply it to the other crew positions. Thus, when JetBlue gives a raise, all the crew positions will get the same percentage increase.

Your theory has some merit. Of course people will accept less now to make more later...to a point. People don't leave that "$80k regional captain job" to go to a legacy because of the mirage of 777 CA pay decades down the road. They do it first for the narrowbody FO pay which rapidly improoves after first year, as well as widebody FO pay not too long after that and of course superior retirement and work rules.

As for what JB management should have done, sure a bigger carrot in terms of 320 Captain pay would help some "keep their eyes on the prize." But the first thing they had to do was narrow the Captain:FO and 320:190 differentials. That had to be done before they simply raised the 320 Captain pay. They almost did what was necessary in those regards, but came up just short, although progress certainly was made. Once those issues get fixed, I agree, raise 320 Captain pay and set percentages for the rest.

As for FO's being "easilly replaceable" I think the 320 FO reserve grid and cancelled upgrade classes due to FO shortages begs to differ. They can upgrade a CA in a couple weeks (in about the time a new hire takes to give notice to their previous employer) but it takes many months to interview, hire, and train a new hire FO. Cancelling upgrade classes and pulling FO's off the line to instruct in an attempt to cover for higher attrition on the FO side is akin to burning the furniture to heat the house. Gets the job done today, but at a fantastic price for the future.

Many guys who leave for greener pastures, like SWA, UPS, FedEx, etc. as well as those taking recall to their prior legacy need look no further than those company's FO pay and retirements for all the financial reasoning they need. And the merger protections of those other companys isn't too shabby by comparison either. I know, its being "worked on as we speak."

 

[GogglesPisano]

Upgrade at JB even to the A320 Captain is still less time than at any other major. .

Are you including CAL?

 

[mannyaplus11]

You live in LGB by choice and are sitting on reserve by choice. With 1.5 years at JB, you can hold a decent line at JFK, fly lots of hours and make decent pay by breaking through min guarantee. No sympathy for you.

I wasn't asking for sympathy, I was just giving this gentleman some information about premium pay. You can't always count on it. I know some JFK people that are holding lines and they can't break guarantee either.

I chose LGB and I save myself the cost of a crashpad in Screw Gardens ($300) and a transcon commute.

 

[FCNelson]

Yet at other airlines you don't have to upgrade to make a living and fund a retirement and have QOL will wanting to have QOL after an upgrade.

New hires want QOL and decent pay. jetBlue offers zero QOL to new hires and 7 years or more before they would break even. Remember a new hire still have to recoup the money they did not earn by taking a job a jetBlue. Then a new hire would have to suck up JFK for most of the rest of their career. Making less than what a 7th year CA at jetBlue makes isn't worth the paying of dues all over again. Now, if growth crew bases where in other part of the country where they could afford to live with the family then all bets are off.

Patience, you are about to eat your words. This summer's fly is in the hands of those you think are so easy to replace. I only takes a second or minute or two to quit and then 3-4 months to hire and train.

If jetBlue management really thinks this way then you better start looking for a new job. CA are not perfect and Saftey is certainly not the number one value.

Where jetBlue has gone wrong it base 90% of the airline where 99.99% of its crews (FAs included) don't want to ever live or could afford to live.

Good Day

Do you think B6 will ever open an MCO base?

I've heard there are upwards of 300 crew members who commute from there?

It would be logical, based on all the airplanes you guys overnight there.

Any other new possibilities for basing? I thought when you guys started moving into IAD that your operation there would get bigger - it seems fairly stagnant although you are adding MCO - IAD soon.

FCN

 

[Splert]

Do you think B6 will ever open an MCO base?

I've heard there are upwards of 300 crew members who commute from there?

It would be logical, based on all the airplanes you guys overnight there.

Any other new possibilities for basing? I thought when you guys started moving into IAD that your operation there would get bigger - it seems fairly stagnant although you are adding MCO - IAD soon.

FCN

I have heard from M St.G that the answer is no. The next domicle is OAK and bay area. But that is a rumor that is getting very old. Rumors to me however just help keep people motivated. You know the old good things are coming kind of stuff so please keep rowing the ship up stream together.

The biggest reason I hear from guys that turn down JB is they don't want to commute to JFK the rest of my life. This is a structure problem that will be very hard to correct anytime soon.

Good Day

 

[J32driver]

I have heard from M St.G that the answer is no. The next domicle is OAK and bay area. But that is a rumor that is getting very old. Rumors to me however just help keep people motivated. You know the old good things are coming kind of stuff so please keep rowing the ship up stream together.

The biggest reason I hear from guys that turn down JB is they don't want to commute to JFK the rest of my life. This is a structure problem that will be very hard to correct anytime soon.

Good Day

Supposedly from a checkairmen meeting about two weeks ago:
the MCO base was going to be a go for about 30 crews. Direct result of the Valentine's Day massacre and not being able to get crewmembers to JFK.