ALPA chest thumpers

[CopilotDoug]

You don't seem to grasp a couple of things:

1. It doesn't matter if a company is making money.
As long as you don't include FedEx, UPS, or NetJets into the equation, you have a point.

2. Management gets to hire and fire.
Who's to fire if the pilot group as a whole walks off the job?

Superiorty complex? Because I say get educated and involved?
Because you're indirectly saying "If you don't see things my way, you're un-educated"

You want the members to stop b!tching? I have a cure-all for it, GUARANTEED TO WORK. Those pilots who don't wish to be an ALPA member can opt out of paying dues.

 

[CopilotDoug]

We're all just meat in the seat to the companies these days, and their actuaries have already crunched the numbers on of accidents will cost vs the money saved by pushing safety.. take for example the "Standups" done at MESA and others that are a constant battle between unions and members of the ATA.

These issues can be addressed internally at each airline by it's own Union. And they should be. They don't require ALPA.

 

[HA25]

These issues can be addressed internally at each airline by it's own Union. And they should be. They don't require ALPA.

So what you're telling me is that when congress holds hearings the MEC of JoeBlow commuter is supposed to get mike time at the hearing? ALPA does have a presence in congress and does represent pilots at these hearings.. but if you have a fragmented assortment of 100+ unions, one for each airline you're never going to get the representation in congress (where the laws are made) that you need to get safety issues addressed.

You really do need to get "educated" sorry if that offends you.. if the shoe fits..

 

[CopilotDoug]

So what you're telling me is that when congress holds hearings the MEC of JoeBlow commuter is supposed to get mike time at the hearing? ALPA does have a presence in congress and does represent pilots at these hearings.. but if you have a fragmented assortment of 100+ unions, one for each airline you're never going to get the representation in congress (where the laws are made) that you need to get safety issues addressed.

You really do need to get "educated" sorry if that offends you.. if the shoe fits..

I guess that makes it official if YOU and REZ say I need to get educated

Enjoy your Kool-Aide, boys. Be sure to tell the SKYWEST pilots how un-educated they are and why they NEED ALPA.

***And I'm saying your represenation in Congress is a JOKE***

Southwest and APA are prime examples of the way to go. APA dumped ALPA years ago for a reason. In Short: ALPA sucked!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, you're never going to convince anyone to vote pro-pilot if you continue to call things like abortion "hobby issues." For people that consider abortion an important issue (like me), we find it extremely grotesque for someone to refer to the senseless murder of unborn children as a "hobby issue." You'll only drive values-voters further to the other side with talk like that.

How does abortion or gun control directly effect you? These are polarizing passion issues that dems and repubs use to force individuals into thier camps.

I am not saying that abortion is ancillary or insignificant... I say each individual can customize thier politics and issues.

However, your job and career are number one and second to none. How can an airline pilot address abortion if they are furloughed, displaced to FO and has thier retirement yanked? Only after your job is secure can one deal with other issues.

Abortion (or whatever the issue) is a social issue. It doesn't pay the bills. But if the issue is more important than your income then perhaps your income needs to be tied to your number one issue....

The problem is Air Line Pilots keep voting for gun control, abortion & gay marriage BEFORE Air Line Careers.

There will always be social issues! Once abortion, guns & gays are fixed there will be a new group of issues! What about the Air Line Pilot Career!!

We can do both! But my income, my mortgage and my family come before gays, guns and abortion! Once my family and my career are being addressed then I can cherry pick my social issues and address them as well.

The goal is to customize your poltics and not give in to party polarizing and brand politics.!!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

These issues can be addressed internally at each airline by it's own Union. And they should be. They don't require ALPA.

ALPA was present at the US/EU globalization/liberalization conference in Europe. I din't see the APA, SWAPA, NPA, IBT or IPA there. And yet all these non ALPA unions will be effected....

Call a national and int'l union whatever you want.... but we need one.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I guess that makes it official if YOU and REZ say I need to get educated

Now two guys are saying get schooled...see a trend...

Enjoy your Kool-Aide, boys. Be sure to tell the SKYWEST pilots how un-educated they are and why they NEED ALPA.

I think they are figuring out on thier own, but well let democracy rule.

***And I'm saying your represenation in Congress is a JOKE***

Its funny... nationally and int'lly ALPA is well respected. Too bad its members don't. Many gov't, NGO's and business's know ALPA's creditbility. I guess they are stupid..

Southwest and APA are prime examples of the way to go. APA dumped ALPA years ago for a reason. In Short: ALPA sucked!

APA left ALPA over a battle of egos/pi$$ing contest over the issue of FPL. Get informed. You ignorance is showing

Both the APA and SWAPA buy EF&A data services from ALPA.

 

[PCL_128]

How does abortion or gun control directly effect you? These are polarizing passion issues that dems and repubs use to force individuals into thier camps.

I am not saying that abortion is ancillary or insignificant... I say each individual can customize thier politics and issues.

However, your job and career are number one and second to none. How can an airline pilot address abortion if they are furloughed, displaced to FO and has thier retirement yanked? Only after your job is secure can one deal with other issues.

Abortion (or whatever the issue) is a social issue. It doesn't pay the bills. But if the issue is more important than your income then perhaps your income needs to be tied to your number one issue....

The problem is Air Line Pilots keep voting for gun control, abortion & gay marriage BEFORE Air Line Careers.

There will always be social issues! Once abortion, guns & gays are fixed there will be a new group of issues! What about the Air Line Pilot Career!!

We can do both! But my income, my mortgage and my family come before gays, guns and abortion! Once my family and my career are being addressed then I can cherry pick my social issues and address them as well.

The goal is to customize your poltics and not give in to party polarizing and brand politics.!!

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the substance of your argument, I'm just saying that the way it's presented is counter-productive. Calling these issues "hobby issues" when you know that they're extremely important to many people will not engender support for your argument. People see that and run the other way. We need to increase PAC support, but we'll never do it if we belittle issues that are important to over half of the membership.

 

[HA25]

How does abortion or gun control directly effect you?

If you have to ask, you'll never understand.. sorry, but it does directly effect everyone. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

That said, I agree we need a party that represents middle American values which includes caring more about the working stiff that the company he works for.. I don't vote straight republican, there are MANY pro-life Dems, and many pro-labor Repubs.. so you just have to quit thinking in terms of party line and more in terms of issues... Also, a balance of power helps.. All one party rule is not good for this country, at least not with these two worthless parties in the main body politic.

 

[CopilotDoug]

APA left ALPA over a battle of egos/pi$$ing contest over the issue of FPL. Get informed. You ignorance is showing

Both the APA and SWAPA buy EF&A data services from ALPA.

I do see a trend...over the past 30 years I see ALPA membership shrinking. But like I say, considering the source (You and V70) I just roll my eyes and say "Ok" to appease your narrow minded tunnel vision point of view. No offense taken. Good Luck on fixing ALPA (hope you brought a sack lunch, you're going to be there a while)

You want to quiet the b!tching down? Just make dues and membership in ALPA voluntary. GUARANTEED

 

[siucavflight]

I do see a trend...over the past 30 years I see ALPA membership shrinking. But like I say, considering the source (You and V70) I just roll my eyes and say "Ok" to appease your narrow minded tunnel vision point of view. No offense taken. Good Luck on fixing ALPA (hope you brought a sack lunch, you're going to be there a while)

You want to quiet the b!tching down? Just make dues and membership in ALPA voluntary. GUARANTEED

How much has the membership shrunk over the last 30 years?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

How much has the membership shrunk over the last 30 years?

Yes..how much....??

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the substance of your argument, I'm just saying that the way it's presented is counter-productive. Calling these issues "hobby issues" when you know that they're extremely important to many people will not engender support for your argument. People see that and run the other way. We need to increase PAC support, but we'll never do it if we belittle issues that are important to over half of the membership.

As I said and I agree with you... if they are important issues then they are important issues.... I don't mean to invalidate them at all...

Many Air Line Pilots simply don't even consider the political-ness of thier careers. They think thier career is a self cleaning oven... mx free!

And while they are addressing social issues we are getting hammered on work rules, pilot pushing, pay, retirement, flight and duty time... little by little as this career shrinks to a job....

Work both issues...

All the while guys like to call out pilot representation....for what? What are they trying to gain?

And the guys like CopilotDoug have developed preceptions that are not realistic. When reality bites hard, they try and justify and cram a square peg of reality into thier round hole of perception..... A big perception...... it's ALPA's fault when in reality it is the RLA....

 

[Shrek]

The big stick swung well for us at NJA...

ABSOLUTELY and each and every NJA pilot out there deserves every bit of advancement in benefits because of that !!

You are only as strong as the will of your pilot group.

 

[CopilotDoug]

How much has the membership shrunk over the last 30 years?

At one point it was near 100,000

Look guys, in looking at my past posts, we've already argued this back in January. A couple guys on hear seem pretty hellbent on pushing the ALPA agenda, and they'd have you believe the world would stop turning if ALPA was voted off property. Just don't work yourselves up to the point of injury.

I'll leave you all with a couple of thoughts...

Capt. Prater eats babies
The MEC's are the present day equivlent of Hitler Youth
And a Vote against ALPA is a vote for the USA!

These are ALL undeniable truths...so don't try refuting them!

BLUE SKIES AND GOOD KARMA!

 

[siucavflight]

100K, wow, down to 64K now.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Nope. You're probably thinking of the mid-80s during the CAL strike when ALPA depleted a lot of its financial resources by paying the striking CAL pilots their full salaries.

When EAL struck the pilots were so amazed the Bush Sr was anti airline pilot that the EAL MEC insisted the ALPA endorsed pro pilot candidates... So ALPA did and they endorsed Clinton......

Boy did that go ever well....


But reality bites.. and the EAL pilots got bit hard! They knew the deal....and they are gone...

 

[merlindrvr88]

you are right!!

At one point it was near 100,000

Look guys, in looking at my past posts, we've already argued this back in January. A couple guys on hear seem pretty hellbent on pushing the ALPA agenda, and they'd have you believe the world would stop turning if ALPA was voted off property. Just don't work yourselves up to the point of injury.

I'll leave you all with a couple of thoughts...

Capt. Prater eats babies
The MEC's are the present day equivlent of Hitler Youth
And a Vote against ALPA is a vote for the USA!

These are ALL undeniable truths...so don't try refuting them!



You are right, we didn't have unions a long time ago, and my father and uncle made a good living. Even my grandfather survived without a union!! How is that possible???? ALPA has scared enough pilots into thinking they need them, try working for a non-alpa carrier, it is quite the same.. "the company wanted to cut 500 pilot jobs, we got them down to 250 jobs, plus a paycut???" You stopped 250 guys from losing their jobs, but they took a paycut for the remaining 250. Good representation!!! Make fun of me, and insult me, but I lived ALPO for 30 years!! Anyone else want to claim that experience?? My entire family lived ALPO!! We can easily represent ourselves at each airline, at half the cost. Why do you think noone shows up for elections? They are represented by men who do not fly the line on a full monthly, regular basis. Thats why they took the job. I have already decided not to work for a ALPA carrier, I have found better, and will never return. But one poster wanted a number. Here is my cell phone number....
928-846-1364. Feel free to call anytime, and defend ALPO. I am not angry or vindictive. I am just glad not to deal with ALPO again. This board shows what a unhappy life it is. GOOD LUCK WITH A SO-CALLED CONTRACT.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Well, what happens to the Comair guys if they're ever sold off? Thier whole contract is thrown out.....so whats the point?

This is 100% patently false.

 

[CFIT]

This is 100% patently false.

How do you know?

Don't you think some corporate puchase attorney has his act more together than some ALPO jack?

The aquisition gun has more to lose than some lakey hired by an organization that couldn't care less of a regional?

 

[BluDevAv8r]

How do you know?

Don't you think some corporate puchase attorney has his act more together than some ALPO jack?

The aquisition gun has more to lose than some lakey hired by an organization that couldn't care less of a regional?

I suppose that this "corporate puchase attorney" would turn to the very first page of the Comair contract and look right at Section 1, Paragraph B.1 where he would see the following:

1. The Company will require any successor resulting from the transfer of the ownership or control of all or substantially all of the equity securities or assets of the Company (a “successorship transaction”) to recognize the Association as the representative of the pilots, to employ the pilots on the seniority list in accordance with the provisions of this Agreement and to assume and be bound by the Agreement.

The language above is legally binding language and in plain English says that anyone who buys or acquires control of Comair will, as a condition of the transaction, recognize ALPA as the bargaining agent and the contract as negotiated (in other words, it can't just be "thrown out"). This language was written by an "ALPO jack lakey" (whatever that is) named Bill Roberts (Assistant Director of Representation for ALPA and the attorney who has worked with Comair for over 8 years). Bill has forgotten more about collective bargaining than you will ever know my friend.

It is clear that you and DX Rick need to learn a little about pilot contracts before you go spewing your rhetoric.

-Neal

 

[Gr82Aviate]

I suppose that this "corporate puchase attorney" would turn to the very first page of the Comair contract and look right at Section 1, Paragraph B.1 where he would see the following:

1. The Company will require any successor resulting from the transfer of the ownership or control of all or substantially all of the equity securities or assets of the Company (a “successorship transaction”) to recognize the Association as the representative of the pilots, to employ the pilots on the seniority list in accordance with the provisions of this Agreement and to assume and be bound by the Agreement.

The language above is legally binding language and in plain English says that anyone who buys or acquires control of Comair will, as a condition of the transaction, recognize ALPA as the bargaining agent and the contract as negotiated (in other words, it can't just be "thrown out"). This language was written by an "ALPO jack lakey" (whatever that is) named Bill Roberts (Assistant Director of Representation for ALPA and the attorney who has worked with Comair for over 8 years). Bill has forgotten more about collective bargaining than you will ever know my friend.

It is clear that you and DX Rick need to learn a little about pilot contracts before you go spewing your rhetoric.

-Neal

How dare you bring reality into CFIT's anti-ALPA rant...

 

[DrewBlows]

We can easily represent ourselves at each airline, at half the cost.

This is 100% false. All Regionals are subsidized by Majors dues. That's fact, no matter what lies you make up, Regionals will always do better with ALPA than without. How else are you going to get a direct return on dues paid? It can't be done.

 

[Fred Rogers]

This is 100% false. All Regionals are subsidized by Majors dues. That's fact, no matter what lies you make up, Regionals will always do better with ALPA than without. How else are you going to get a direct return on dues paid? It can't be done.

It seems to me that everyone benifets with a big pot of shared money

 

[CopilotDoug]

I suppose that this "corporate puchase attorney" would turn to the very first page of the Comair contract and look right at Section 1, Paragraph B.1 where he would see the following:

1. The Company will require any successor resulting from the transfer of the ownership or control of all or substantially all of the equity securities or assets of the Company (a “successorship transaction”) to recognize the Association as the representative of the pilots, to employ the pilots on the seniority list in accordance with the provisions of this Agreement and to assume and be bound by the Agreement.

The language above is legally binding language and in plain English says that anyone who buys or acquires control of Comair will, as a condition of the transaction, recognize ALPA as the bargaining agent and the contract as negotiated (in other words, it can't just be "thrown out"). This language was written by an "ALPO jack lakey" (whatever that is) named Bill Roberts (Assistant Director of Representation for ALPA and the attorney who has worked with Comair for over 8 years). Bill has forgotten more about collective bargaining than you will ever know my friend. -Neal

Neal,

How many times have legally binding ALPA contracts been Used and Abused to the benefit of management? As the old addage goes, rules (contracts) are made to be broken. Don't think for one second there aren't legal loop holes around these clauses, you pay a sleezy attorney enough and he'll dig up some for you.

As far as Regionals always doing better with ALPA, as a "fact"...well, you and I both know that's a matter of opinion. But having seen their system work up close, it's not a system you'd want to test out with your job on the line. There's a fair percentage of guys out there who do lose their jobs, and it gets worse at the regionals. To paraphrase PCL128, the general perception of ALPA's power is unrealistic.

The days of the Unions are drawing closed, Big Business has been working with government to reduce the muscle of Unions. ALPA doesn't represent the pilot's main interest these days...Pay. Schedule with safety...Uhhh...sorry, we already have large entities like the FAA and the NTSB working on safety improvement programs (Like moving maps of airport diagrams). ALPA has been reduced to all talk...just ask Capt. "Takin' it Back" Prater. We are going to pattern bargain our pay back. Well, good luck with that, but don't get your hopes up. I agree with Merlin, you can still have an in house Union with lower dues than ALPA. You might say it would be ineffective, but then you're describing present day ALPA.

____________________________________
Everybody knows the Teamsters would stomp a mudhole in ALPA's a$$ any day of the week.

 

[Mr Wu]

Doug, you crack me up. If management is doing all you say with a contract in place, what would they be doing with no contracts in place? You talk like management becomes confrontational the minute that a contract is signed, that everything was rosy before the union talk began. This is not the case. Union talk began for a reason and it was not because management decided all of a sudden to just give their employees the benefits that they have. All that you take for granted was negotiated by collective bargaining - paid holidays, vacation, overrides, rigs, commuter clauses, etc. Doubt if there is a company out there that just decided to give that stuff to their employees without the threat of a union.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Doug, you crack me up. If management is doing all you say with a contract in place, what would they be doing with no contracts in place? You talk like management becomes confrontational the minute that a contract is signed, that everything was rosy before the union talk began. This is not the case. Union talk began for a reason and it was not because management decided all of a sudden to just give their employees the benefits that they have. All that you take for granted was negotiated by collective bargaining - paid holidays, vacation, overrides, rigs, commuter clauses, etc. Doubt if there is a company out there that just decided to give that stuff to their employees without the threat of a union.

Excellent post! At least someone "gets it".

 

[acaTerry]

Doubt if there is a company out there that just decided to give that stuff to their employees without the threat of a union.

A few have in the past, but keep in mind that without union representation, that all those nice things could disappear in a heartbeat and there'd be NOTHING anyone could do about it.
The trouble really began when the days of "lower" employees working their way up to management ended, and the days of pure-blooded management types came in from OUTSIDE and started to run things.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal,

How many times have legally binding ALPA contracts been Used and Abused to the benefit of management? As the old addage goes, rules (contracts) are made to be broken. Don't think for one second there aren't legal loop holes around these clauses, you pay a sleezy attorney enough and he'll dig up some for you.

Well that can be said for any kind of legally binding contract and that is why we have courts, lawyers, judges, etc. But the language you are seeing above is tight and legally enforceable and tested over time. If you want to argue the contrary, I challenge you to find me a case after 1983-1985 where an entity has acquired or obtained control of an ALPA carrier and then subsequently thrown the contract out the window, effectively making its employees "at will."

As far as Regionals always doing better with ALPA, as a "fact"...well, you and I both know that's a matter of opinion. But having seen their system work up close, it's not a system you'd want to test out with your job on the line. There's a fair percentage of guys out there who do lose their jobs, and it gets worse at the regionals. To paraphrase PCL128, the general perception of ALPA's power is unrealistic.

Having been the chairman of XJT's NC during the Contract '04 negotiations, I think I am fairly well qualified to speak on ALPA's dedication to regionals (or lack thereof in your opinion). We received an incredible amount of attention and resources from ALPA National throughout our entire process. Our principal attorney was Bruce York, who for half of our process was the Assistant Director of Representation and the second half was the Director of Representation. We then were also assisted by Bill Roberts, who is another Assistant Director. Lastly, we had a third local ALPA attorney present. We also had the usual other resources such as E&FA, R&I, Communications, Legal, etc. It is safe to say that XJT's contract is pretty good as are the working conditions at XJT. ALPA isn't perfect but this whole "ALPA hates the regionals" mentality is quite suspect, at least from my viewpoint, which includes 4 years of working for the XJT MEC.

Everybody knows the Teamsters would stomp a mudhole in ALPA's a$$ any day of the week.

I guess that is a matter of opinion but knowing what I know about the Teamsters and ALPA, I will stick with ALPA, thanks.

-Neal

 

[CopilotDoug]

It is safe to say that XJT's contract is pretty good as are the working conditions at XJT. ALPA isn't perfect but this whole "ALPA hates the regionals" mentality is quite suspect, at least from my viewpoint, which includes 4 years of working for the XJT MEC.
-Neal

Where does this leave an airline like Mesa? Do they not have access to the same ALPA resources? Why the disparity in the contracts?

And I am not implying that ALPA has any maliscious intent towards any of the regionals.